Future of NSW Rolling Stock

 
  blacktails1985 Station Master

Can anyone help me out with more information regarding this topic?

I know the A Sets (Waratahs) are supposed to be replacing the S Sets, with the exception of some which will go to the South West Rail Link.

But since the H Sets (OSCARs) have taken over some of the V Sets routes, is the plan to gradually phase them out and have only the OSCARs as intercity/interurban?

Also, I think I read another Tangara refurbishment was put on hold. I also read they have trouble with cooling for their brakes. If the refurb goes ahead, and the problems are fixed, would they be set to replace the other older rolling stock, like the K Sets and possibly the C Sets?

When the SWR gets the S Sets, are they going to be keeping them to make do until something better is given to them, or will these be all they will receive?

My father said around Leppington or nearby was where a proposed airport may go in.

If this is the case, I seriously doubt visitors to Australia would welcome the jerky, stuffy, and noisy atmosphere of the S Sets.

In my mind, if they are to be holding onto the S Sets for a considerable length of time because the government won't pay for new rolling stock, then they should refurbish them so the insides look like the refurbed Tangaras, which in turn look like the Millennium and Waratahs inside after the refurb. Then, they should add sound-proofing, air-conditioning, chopper control, and put them forward as SWR Sets. They could even strip off the metal and make the S Sets more streamlined and modern-looking, instead of the eyesore that the S, K, and C Sets are becoming.

And it would probably be much cheaper to upgrade and refurb old rolling stock for the government than to purchase brand new trains.

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  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I know the A Sets (Waratahs) are supposed to be replacing the S Sets, with the exception of some which will go to the South West Rail Link.
"blacktails1985"
Correct, but it's not necessarily like-for-like.

But since the H Sets (OSCARs) have taken over some of the V Sets routes, is the plan to gradually phase them out and have only the OSCARs as intercity/interurban?
"blacktails1985"
This is an extremely controversial topic; the only solid, definite answer is "nobody really knows". Rumours are rife, and every possible fleet strategy has been floated, touted and analysed. But do we know for sure? Nope!

Also, I think I read another Tangara refurbishment was put on hold. I also read they have trouble with cooling for their brakes. If the refurb goes ahead, and the problems are fixed, would they be set to replace the other older rolling stock, like the K Sets and possibly the C Sets?
"blacktails1985"
Tangara refurbishments won't increase their fleet size, so they won't be replacing anything but themselves.

However, while it is likely possible to keep the K set fleet running until they are completely life-expired, particularly by cannibalising compatible excess S set parts, I don't see much life in the C sets, as they are unique and increasingly unreliable. My money is on them being run into the ground and then dumped. But that's my opinion; do I know this for sure? Nope!

K sets and C sets will need to be replaced by another order of new suburban cars. (Or, if you believe that theory, cascaded OSCars with the lavatory removed.)

When the SWR gets the S Sets, are they going to be keeping them to make do until something better is given to them, or will these be all they will receive?

My father said around Leppington or nearby was where a proposed airport may go in.

If this is the case, I seriously doubt visitors to Australia would welcome the jerky, stuffy, and noisy atmosphere of the S Sets.
"blacktails1985"
When it is said that "S sets will need to be retained for the SWRL", what it actually means is that some of them are needed to keep the overall fleet size large enough to support the inclusion of the SWRL. This does not necessarily mean that they will be the ones running to Leppington; instead, they could be running elsewhere, thus freeing up newer trains to run the SWRL.

In my mind, if they are to be holding onto the S Sets for a considerable length of time because the government won't pay for new rolling stock, then they should refurbish them so the insides look like the refurbed Tangaras, which in turn look like the Millennium and Waratahs inside after the refurb. Then, they should add sound-proofing, air-conditioning, chopper control, and put them forward as SWR Sets. They could even strip off the metal and make the S Sets more streamlined and modern-looking, instead of the eyesore that the S, K, and C Sets are becoming.

And it would probably be much cheaper to upgrade and refurb old rolling stock for the government than to purchase brand new trains.
"blacktails1985"
S sets are almost at the end of their useful lifespan; they are being cut off slightly earlier than the traditional NSWGR/PTC/SRA "clapped-out" life-expiry point, but this is due to an urgent political need to eliminate non-air-conditioned trains as soon as possible. While some sets will continue to receive what has been nicknamed a "Dulux refurb" (repaint), no drastic changes will be made to them as it is simply not a cost-effective solution.

It is not necessarily "much cheaper" to continually patch up life-expired rolling stock; purchasing new rolling stock may be expensive, but it is by far the superior course of action. They are not shackled by the age and outdated design of older trains, and as clean-sheet designs can be built optimally to suit today's requirements.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

This is an extremely controversial topic; the only solid, definite answer is "nobody really knows". Rumours are rife, and every possible fleet strategy has been floated, touted and analysed. But do we know for sure? Nope!
Watson374
The Oscars will take over the interurban runs (except west of Springwood). Oscars are already under the "intercity" banner on the South Coast Line, and have taken over some Sydney - Newcastle, and some Newcastle suburban runs.

I can see it coming when the Oscars will be officially rebranded as intercities in the short term.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The Oscars will take over the interurban runs (except west of Springwood). Oscars are already under the "intercity" banner on the South Coast Line, and have taken over some Sydney - Newcastle, and some Newcastle suburban runs.

I can see it coming that the Oscars will be officially rebranded as intercities in the short term.
"Newcastle Express"
That is your prediction. Unless you have complete insider information, your guess is as good as mine.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The Oscars will take over the interurban runs (except west of Springwood). Oscars are already under the "intercity" banner on the South Coast Line, and have taken over some Sydney - Newcastle, and some Newcastle suburban runs.
NewcastleExpress

I can see it coming that the Oscars will be officially rebranded as intercities in the short term.That is your prediction. Unless you have complete insider information, your guess is as good as mine.
Watson374

Pretty good guess though.

My guess is unless there is a shakeout at tNSW I think the next order will be for 60 NWRL compatible SD trains for the "new" cross harbour line, with the trains being funded (and run initially on the Inner West, Bankstown and Revesby/Airport lines) but the crossing not, probably comming onstream around 2020-2022.  They will be a stop gap measure between the failure/demise of the C/K fleet and implementation of the larger "rapid transit" network.  When they convert Sector 3 over to metro in ~2025 there will be a fleet swapover.

I think Newcastle Express is right about interurbans, they'll be all OSCARs, bar the DK series V sets east of Springwood (or perhaps Lawson), but probably with a few Ts to make up the numbers given the H set fleet is too small to serve the current timetable.  I expect there will be service cuts too (probably fairly soon) as NSW Trains "refocuses" on it's "core business" (ie stops running Sydney suburban trains).  But this is obviously just pure speculation.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
I think Newcastle Express is right about interurbans, they'll be all OSCARs, bar the DK series V sets east of Springwood (or perhaps Lawson), but probably with a few Ts to make up the numbers given the H set fleet is too small to serve the current timetable.  I expect there will be service cuts too (probably fairly soon) as NSW Trains "refocuses" on it's "core business" (ie stops running Sydney suburban trains).  But this is obviously just pure speculation.
djf01
Credit where credit is due, I often give your set flak because you leave off that last line, so thankyou.

As for your idea of Tangaras running outer suburban services again, this will only happen if the boundaries are redrawn. When the company splits, the rolling stock will split too. V Sets, OSCars, Hunter Cars and Endeavours (as well as the CountryLink fleet) will go to NSW Trains. The remainder will be retained by Sydney Trains. This will draw a line in the sand - there has been questions raised for many months about how OSCars will work...

As designed, they are to do one peak hour interurban run into the city, run about all day as a suburban train, then back out in the afternoon to their interurban destination. This is what they were designed for, and they perform this role admirably. They also do short haul interurban runs all day quite well (ie your Wyongs, Springwoods, Wollongongs, etc). I still disagree that they should go beyond the population centres, but that's just me.

That Tangaras will (finally) become suburban only (barring any unusual/out of course working) is unquestionable.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Credit where credit is due, I often give your set flak because you leave off that last line, so thankyou.

As for your idea of Tangaras running outer suburban services again, this will only happen if the boundaries are redrawn. When the company splits, the rolling stock will split too. V Sets, OSCars, Hunter Cars and Endeavours (as well as the CountryLink fleet) will go to NSW Trains. The remainder will be retained by Sydney Trains. This will draw a line in the sand - there has been questions raised for many months about how OSCars will work...
Raichase

All I'm saying is that post the V sets, there won't be enough OSCARs to run NSW Train's sparked routes.  

Also, however they end up deciding to integrate the NWRL into the network one thing is certain: NSW will need more more - probably much more -  NWRL compatible rolling stock.  The implication is that for the next 20 years NWRL format SD trains will be the only type of fleet vehicle ordered, regardless of where they are deployed.

So at some stage I think Sydney Trains will have surplus - but effectively life expired - T Sets, and NSW Trains will probably snaffle them to do Illawarra locals, Newcastle Locals and perhaps some contra-flow peak runs - doing the job previously done by R sets, 2 car Ks and U Boats.

Again, to please Rainchaser, this is pure speculation.  But ... I don't think anyone can seriously claim there is a genuine "plan" for NSW rolling stock fleet management and procurement.  Anyone with genuine "inside knowledge" is doing little more than speculating either.  Rumours of refurbishment programs - however well founded - are no guarantee of anything beyond Asset Manager's preparing contingencies.  Anyone who can count trains and/or dollars can see what the priorities are and where the moolah will most likely go.

Indeed I'd suggest this has been a major problem: the lack of certainty of future procurement funding and requirements has had an adverse impact on fleet composition, deployment and as a result the "customer experience".
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Again, to please Rainchaser, this is pure speculation.
djf01
If you could do me the respect of spelling my username correctly, it would be appreciated. I've been a member here for a significant amount of time, and it's hardly complicated.
  darcyj Chief Train Controller

S sets are almost at the end of their useful lifespan; they are being cut off slightly earlier than the traditional NSWGR/PTC/SRA "clapped-out" life-expiry point, but this is due to an urgent political need to eliminate non-air-conditioned trains as soon as possible. While some sets will continue to receive what has been nicknamed a "Dulux refurb" (repaint), no drastic changes will be made to them as it is simply not a cost-effective solution.
Watson374

On the subject of S sets, I drew the attention of a driver the other day at Glenfield when I shook my head as I watched his clapped-out train ease in.  I was close to the front, so he stuck his head out to ask me what was the problem?  I said "S set."

There is no logic at all in running S, C or K sets through the airport stations.  Bad look, bad utility.  Question for those inside the tent:  Is there any reason why that sector can't be served exclusively by rolling stock of Tangara and later vintage?  Aside from the fact that it would put North Shore and Western Line commuters into the older sets, which I don't see as a problem.  Giving the airport commuters good service outweighs the groans of others IMHO.
  ivahri Train Controller

What is wrong with S sets serving the airport line? No air-conditioning? So what? If they are only travelling a few stops, who cares? You can travel in the end vestibules of an S with large bags just as easy as a T or a M/A... What I think matters more is the cleanliness- and that is an issue for any class of carriage. First impressions are more likely to be impacted by a dirty stinking carriage rather than "oh no I'm not going to travel in an S set!"

And I live on the line & use the airport link regularly...

Cheers


Richard
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Aside from the fact that it would put North Shore and Western Line commuters into the older sets, which I don't see as a problem.
"darcyj"
Screw the other guys, I want shiny trains?
  mboi84 Junior Train Controller

Location: Sydney
On the subject of S sets, I drew the attention of a driver the other day at Glenfield when I shook my head as I watched his clapped-out train ease in.  I was close to the front, so he stuck his head out to ask me what was the problem?  I said "S set."

There is no logic at all in running S, C or K sets through the airport stations.  Bad look, bad utility.  Question for those inside the tent:  Is there any reason why that sector can't be served exclusively by rolling stock of Tangara and later vintage?  Aside from the fact that it would put North Shore and Western Line commuters into the older sets, which I don't see as a problem.  Giving the airport commuters good service outweighs the groans of others IMHO.
"darcyj"


Darcy, I dare you to go along the western line and say that commuters who use the line like myself, should be stuck with rolling stock that is better suited in the rubbish tip. To be honest, the older sets have been servicing the airport line since it opened and will do so until they are replaced. Screw your idea!!

I am sure tourist would be more concerned as pointed out about cleanliness and smell and on time performance compared to having a brand spanking new train!! I know that's what I look out for when traveling interstate or overseas!!
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Screw the other guys, I want shiny trains?
Watson374
That seems to be the prevailing opinion everywhere in Sydney, yes.
  darcyj Chief Train Controller

Screw the other guys, I want shiny trains?
Watson374
No, nothing like that.  I use trains to Seven Hills or to Olympic Park often enough, so I'm not thinking of my personal comfort, but of the first-impression to tourists and the ease of access.  Notwithstanding Richard's response claiming that bag ingress and egress from the vestibules is "just as easy" on all types, I disagree, I think the vestibule-level access on more recent models is better but in addition it is far easier on the newer trains to negotiate the stairs to the upper or lower decks when toting a bag (although maybe not the 3x32kg of luggage that some international passengers seem to feel necessary).

mboi84, cleanliness and smell comparisons point directly back to S/C/K versus T/M/A and the latter types win.  You can't have it both ways - are the S sets fit for the rubbish tip or not?  And if you look for clean, nice-smelling and on-time-performing trains when you travel, then why not support provision of that level of service for incoming travellers to Sydney?

JPD
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

Actually, from my personal impression, the Airport Line already gets some pretty good rolling stock.

Obviously I don't know the real timetable and scheduling, but from my observations, the Airport Line gets far more A sets and M sets by percentage than the other City Circle lines. That's just my personal impression, I could be wrong.
  ivahri Train Controller

My view is pretty simple- the further a person travels on a train the greater their expectation should be to an air-conditioned train. On that basis there is no way western line passengers should be left with the remaining S sets.

I also still can't see what significant difference there is in the end vestibules. As for carrying any kind of travel bags (such as carry on luggage) where would you put them upstairs or downstairs without using up space that should be free for other passengers (or access)? When I'm travelling by air I travel in the end vestibules, often in an S set, and I don't think there is a problem (except when someone has pee'd or puked... and that happens in any Sydney train).

Cheers


Richard
  mboi84 Junior Train Controller

Location: Sydney
mboi84, cleanliness and smell comparisons point directly back to S/C/K versus T/M/A and the latter types win.  You can't have it both ways - are the S sets fit for the rubbish tip or not?  And if you look for clean, nice-smelling and on-time-performing trains when you travel, then why not support provision of that level of service for incoming travellers to Sydney?

JPD
darcyj
So Darcy for people with disabilities who live and use the western line a heck of a lot, you want to keep older rolling stock on that line for sake of some tourists and trying to make a good impression??

Honestly that view is silly. Yes i have complained about the Waratahs but they do have better access for wheelchair (without having so many damn poles) but so do the H Set and the refurbed T sets - but just leaving older non air con, unaccessible trains on one line for the sake of having newer rolling stock dedicated to another line for the sake of the airport line and tourist to make a "first good impression" is just a tunnel vision.

Question is, if you went to London or Paris or any other nation, would they put shiny new services or use trains that are clean and old, yet somewhat tired but at least clean and on time. I am not saying Sydney trains fleet maybe 100% clean but at least they still run (somewhat) but that just my view. I look from both a everyday commuter but also a disabled commuter and I would rather trains that were clean, on time at least, and most importantly be wheelchair accessible on all lines!!
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
This is stupid.

The trains running through the Airport line run through onto the East Hills line; the lines are a part of the whole network, and therefore get whatever Flemington and Auburn can throw at it. It's a chance game, really. Generally, the newer trains do end up that way, but things do get shuffled around and sometimes the small number of S sets that go through there is bumped up a little.

Frankly, it's a bit of a lottery. Some people have drawn short and gotten a six-car R set with a car locked off (smashed windows) and the entire thing covered in graffiti and with broken forced ventilation to boot just as all the overnight Asian flights disgorge, and some have scored Waratah after Waratah.

Luck of the draw, the way it will always be - simply because it's part of a greater network, not a dedicated line. Before you know it, people will complain about M sets down there because they didn't get the latest whizzy bullet...
  stupid_girl Assistant Commissioner

Actually, from my personal impression, the Airport Line already gets some pretty good rolling stock.

Obviously I don't know the real timetable and scheduling, but from my observations, the Airport Line gets far more A sets and M sets by percentage than the other City Circle lines. That's just my personal impression, I could be wrong.
clrks
The situation has actually improved.

If you look back to the weekends 1-2 years, you would see most M sets going to the Airport & South corridor. In contrast, Bankstown and Inner West Line got a large percentage of S sets (probably the largest in the network) at that time. Now, Bankstown and Inner West Line gets a fair share of A sets on weekends.
  electrax Assistant Commissioner

As far as external changes to the S-set cars are concerned, the fluting is part of the Budd patent designed to strengthen the sides of Comeng-built cars. This is the same fluting which was applied to loco-hauled cars used for the Southern Aurora, Brisbane Limited, Indian Pacific and Prospector cars. The fluting is an integral part of the Budd process for building cars out of stainless steel. The single deck interurbans, together with other items of Australian passenger stock built by Comeng, also had this feature. The Goninan-built S-set cars used a different process for construction of their double deck cars.

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