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Flinders Street Station Design Competition

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      footscrazy Station Master

    http://vote.majorprojects.vic.gov.au

    Zaha Haddad's gets my vote, just cos it looks out there, retains views to the original structure and addresses Melbourne Metro.

    Please discuss ad nauseam...
    Posted: 24 Jul 2013 10:47

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      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    http://vote.majorprojects.vic.gov.au

    Zaha Haddad's gets my vote, just cos it looks out there, retains views to the original structure and addresses Melbourne Metro.

    Please discuss ad nauseam...
    footscrazy

    http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1848981.htm#1848981
    Posted: 24 Jul 2013 13:16
      Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

    Location: Norda Fittazroy
    Is it a competition to see whether Flinders Street can be a bigger disaster and money-waster than Southern Cross/Spencer Street?
    Posted: 24 Jul 2013 15:14
      shrekman Junior Train Controller

    Location: E.R.D.
    Wasn't one of the hurdles of getting anything done to Flinders St the heritage listing? Even repairing the broken tiles in the subways was put down as too hard.  Now along come these pie in the sky designs, that have half of them replacing the canopies that are supposed to be heritage listed. Of course, none of these designs will ever be built, with the politicians already stating that no funding is in place for this build for at least 10 years!! But at least it means they can say they did something about the decay of the station, yep, wasted millions on a design competition instead of repairing what is an embarrassment to Melbourne.Mad
    Posted: 27 Jul 2013 14:56
      tom9876543 Train Controller

    "Heritage Listing" is a disaster because it has gone too far.
    This applies in general, not just to railway infrastructure.

    In general, when you have 10 examples of an architectural design heritage listed, that is enough.
    As an example, if there is a street / area with houses built in the 1890, preserve 10 of the houses and let the rest be demolished for new development.

    I agree the Flinders St Station BUILDING should be preserved and incorporated into any new design.
    That is because it is iconic, and obviously there aren't 10 of them.
    However, a heritage listing of the platforms is pathetic, stupid and a total waste of time.

    What should simply happen is a video record of the current platforms is made. And photos. Plus any architectural drawings.
    It is not hard to make a video, gunzels would do it for free. It can be put on youtube.
    This provides a documented history of the building.
    There should be enough information, that it is theoretically possible to rebuild the station with today's design.

    When that criteria has been met, there is no need to physically preserve the platforms, and they can be destroyed and rebuilt to a more modern design.
    Posted: 27 Jul 2013 17:35
      Electric C Junior Train Controller

    Location: The Shed - land of junk, smoke and wonder
    as a Tasmanian that visits Melbourne often, I like Flinders the way it is!
    Posted: 29 Jul 2013 23:28
      bramt Deputy Commissioner

    What restrictions do the heritage overlay put on the platforms, specifically?
    Posted: 30 Jul 2013 00:32
      TedHanson Junior Train Controller

    It's a competition for the gullible, especially those who get their views from the HUN. Wasting a few million in order to give the impression that something is actually being improved is money well spent on those whose minds are easily manipulated. Of course, the money could have better spent on new tiles in the Elizabeth Street subway, fixing leaks that have existed for fifty years or more in that and the Degraves Street subway or turning the FS Metro info centre into something useful, like another Hub.
    Posted: 31 Jul 2013 16:03
      Skipdaddyo Chief Train Controller

    Location: Living the dream
    Is it a competition to see whether Flinders Street can be a bigger disaster and money-waster than Southern Cross/Spencer Street?
    Valvegear
    Where's the like button? Smile
    Posted: 31 Jul 2013 18:54
      Calgully Deputy Commissioner

    Location:
    Is it a competition to see whether Flinders Street can be a bigger disaster and money-waster than Southern Cross/Spencer Street?
    Valvegear

    Something had to be done about Spencer Street - it was a squalid hovel.

    Flinders Street on the other hand basically works now and could last another 50 years with little more than maintenance.

    Having said that, there is so much potential for this to be a truly great station of the world.  Pity that none of the entrants go anywhere near it.  Every one of them would leave Flinders Street WORSE than it is today.  It is a shocking commentary on the parlous state of architecture in Australia today.

    I challenge anyone to name a late 20th century building in Australia that is inspiring.  Contrast the very short list you might be able to scratch together with the impressive array of inspiring 19th century buildings that remain (not to mention those that have been demolished to make way for 20th century mediocrity).
    Posted: 31 Jul 2013 19:19
      MikeyJackson Locomotive Driver

    Location: Footscray, Victoria, Australia
    I vote to clean the current design and create a model railway club in some spare space as there exists plenty
    Posted: 31 Jul 2013 19:58

    Last edited by MikeyJackson on 31 Jul 2013 19:59; edited 1 time in total
      712M Chief Commissioner

    I reckon they need to do a good restoration of the main admin building and demolish the platforms/subways and start from scratch. Yes, it's a massive god but it needs to be done. Replace the Elizabeth St subway with a footbridge similar to the Bourke St one at Southern Cross. Build enough new platforms so that there are two platforms each for the Northern and Clifton Hill groups, three for Caulfield and Burnley and four for the Cross-City group. A massive roof over the station would be an expensive eyesore, a cheaper option would be to provide canopies over all platforms and concourses.
    Posted: 31 Jul 2013 20:44
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    The designs have been hampered by the need to retain all platforms, which makes no sense.

    Flinders Street is a mess at the moment, and activation of the Yarra's north bank is a reasonable goal.
    Posted: 01 Aug 2013 19:15
      Skipdaddyo Chief Train Controller

    Location: Living the dream
    The designs have been hampered by the need to retain all platforms, which makes no sense.

    Flinders Street is a mess at the moment, and activation of the Yarra's north bank is a reasonable goal.
    ZH836301
    Which platforms can we do without?
    Posted: 01 Aug 2013 19:46
      railblogger Chief Commissioner

    Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
    Which platforms can we do without?
    Skipdaddyo
    Reorganisation of the Cross-City group timetables would allow us to do away with platforms 12, 13, and 14 at the minimum.
    Posted: 01 Aug 2013 20:24
      comet4 Station Master

    Don't stress over any proposed Flinders Street development guys. Do we really think anything will be done? Denis Do-nothing has already said it's more than 10 years away - if ever.

    Oh - sorry - he is going to build a road tunnel.
    Posted: 02 Aug 2013 17:02
      Revenue Chief Commissioner

    I think there is a strong case to retain all platforms for operational reasons, but even if that wasn't the case, you need to retain all the platforms while you are building over the tracks at FSS in order to keep the network operational!  Smile  (eg. shut some platforms while you work on others).
    Posted: 02 Aug 2013 17:09
      mclaren2007 Assistant Commissioner

    Location: recharging my myki
    I went to Melbourne, Flinders Street Station was an awesome structure to look at, a real blase from the past. None of this modernization or concrete canyons.
    Posted: 02 Aug 2013 17:40
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    Which platforms can we do without?
    Skipdaddyo
    With some reorganisation/works, you only really require:

    *Platform 1 - Clifton Hill Loop
    *Platform 2 - Burnley Loop
    *Platform 3 - 'Glen Waverley' Loop
    *Platform 4 - Northern Loop
    *Platform 5/6 - Caulfield/Werribee Cross-city
    *Platform 12/13 - Sandringham

    That would release an enormous amount to redevelop the north side of the Yarra.
    Posted: 02 Aug 2013 17:59

    Last edited by ZH836301 on 02 Aug 2013 18:00; edited 2 times in total
      Braddo Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Narre Warren
    as a Tasmanian that visits Melbourne often, I like Flinders the way it is!
    Electric C
    Obviously you've never had to use the toilet facilities.

    Something had to be done about Spencer Street - it was a squalid hovel.
    Calgully
    I disagree. It was looking dated, but it was far more usable than the current station, which involves walking a ridiculous distance through a large shopping centre to access the platforms.
    Posted: 03 Aug 2013 00:37
      frezno Junior Train Controller

    That would release an enormous amount to redevelop the north side of the Yarra.
    ZH836301

    The question I would ask would be, why do we need to redevelop more land in an already overdeveloped city?
    Posted: 03 Aug 2013 00:39
      Calgully Deputy Commissioner

    Location:
    I disagree. It was looking dated, but it was far more usable than the current station, which involves walking a ridiculous distance through a large shopping centre to access the platforms.
    Braddo

    That's not true - the walk at Southern Cross is shorter and easier than it was at Spencer Street.  The platforms are in exactly the same place as they were before, and they're more accessible from City streets than they ever were in the old station.  You can now walk to your Vline train on the level without having to go down the sewer and up the ramp and there's now vastly better access from the west side now that there are new access points from Collins Street.

    The weakest point about the new station is interchange between suburban and Vline trains.  But even there it's no worse than the old station.  Previously you had to go down the ramp from platform 9-14 then through the sewer and back up the ramp to platform 1-8.  Nowadays the equivalent is going up the escalator from platform 9-14 along the Bourke St Bridge then down the steps or alligator to platform 1-8.  Same distance.  It is a longer walk though if you try to do it at the Collins Street end.

    In the end it comes down to whether customers use it or not.  It seems to me (subjectively) that Southern Cross station is used by many more passengers than before.  Obviously helped by new development at that end of the city and increased Vline services since RFR.

    Having said that, given the ambitious objectives for the Southern Cross development, and the open chequebook, it falls short of the lofty aims.  It's a good station - much better than before, but it's not inspiring.
    Posted: 03 Aug 2013 08:50
      Skipdaddyo Chief Train Controller

    Location: Living the dream
    With some reorganisation/works, you only really require:

    *Platform 1 - Clifton Hill Loop
    *Platform 2 - Burnley Loop
    *Platform 3 - 'Glen Waverley' Loop
    *Platform 4 - Northern Loop
    *Platform 5/6 - Caulfield/Werribee Cross-city
    *Platform 12/13 - Sandringham

    That would release an enormous amount to redevelop the north side of the Yarra.
    ZH836301
    Let's just say that was possible, and I'm sceptical that it is from a network flexibility stand point...

    Wouldn't it be better to use the space created to have platforms on either side of each train (Spanish solution) - an entry and an exit platform?

    From my observations, space for people to move is a big issue in peak times.  I never enjoy coming into platform 5 in the pm peak, just so many people.  Have sounded the whistle on more than one occasion to warn unaware people standing on the edge...

    Here's my slightly modified version

    1 Clifton Hill
    2/3 Burnley - Glen Waverley included, putting them on 4 hurts the Northern group badly
    4/5 Northern
    6/7 Caulfield
    8/9 Cross City
    10/11* V/line - their enormous dwell times justify complete separation in my opinion

    * Yes I know it doesn't exist, but should only cost $116 million to reinstate...
    Posted: 03 Aug 2013 11:11
      railblogger Chief Commissioner

    Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
    Let's just say that was possible, and I'm sceptical that it is from a network flexibility stand point...
    Skipdaddyo
    With a bit of track work, it should be.
    Posted: 03 Aug 2013 11:32
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    The question I would ask would be, why do we need to redevelop more land in an already overdeveloped city?
    "frezno"

    Overdeveloped?  Really?  Why shouldn't it be developed if it can bring more people to the city?  

    Or do you think a sea of ballast is really the best use of land in the centre of the city?  It's not a park we're talking about.

    Wouldn't it be better to use the space created to have platforms on either side of each train (Spanish solution) - an entry and an exit platform?
    "skipdaddyo"

    Not really.  Any change in dwell time is not going to be that beneficial if all the other metro stations are only single platform face.

    Any arguments based on 'flexibility' are just defences of the existing status quo.  We've already seen how successful Southbank has been at bringing people to the city, a similar redevelopment of the north bank would be ideal.
    Posted: 03 Aug 2013 18:24

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