Boat People - where to now!

 
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
I've stayed out of this discussion for too long.

These refugees are not being pulled toward Australia. They are being pushed. Hard.

The traffickers are businessmen, meeting a clear need. Eliminate the need, and their businesses will collapse. (It's just like dealers in illegal drugs: legalise the drugs and the business model will inevitably collapse...)

The problems, and solutions, are at the points of origin of the refugees. If the refugees are unable to find refuge in Australia (or PNG or Nauru) they have little choice but to look elsewhere. This is not a solution, only a relocation of the problem.

It may well be that there is no complete solution to the refugee "problem", but demonising these people cannot help. The modern nations of Australia, NZ, USA and Canada (and any number of other countries that I have overlooked) have largely been built by refugees. Show a little compassion - it goes a long way.
allan
Oh come on.  Australia wasn't largely built by refugees!  Yes, a lot of hard working migrants particularly after WW2 helped and contributed but on a whole refugees only started arriving in the late 1970's.  I think Australia was well and truly established by then.  

That sounds like something a year 8 History teacher has said.

Sponsored advertisement

  T88 Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
Anyone care to provide the figures of how many people have over stayed in Australia?  Obviously these people are working for cash and not paying tax. They come by planes not boats!
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington, your argument about non genuine refugees being sent back does not stack up.  Yes, the Government has made a few headlines about a few Sri Lankans being forcibly sent back but the vast majority are staying even though they do no meet the refugee criteria, especially in the case of the Iranians who are not fleeing anything but for god knows why their Government refuses to take them back.

This than goes back to what I was saying about symbolism.  If people at the back of the queue see other people succeeding with their plans than it only stands to reason that they are going to give it a try, and so the snowball gets bigger and bigger with dire consequences for all involved, including the taxpayers of Australia, you and me.

You also propose to resettle these people and that they will get jobs and so on and everything will be fine and dandy, but how do you think this will happen with the economy going the way it is and unemployment expected to go through the roof in the next couple of years?

Finally, you seem to continually deny hard facts that are on the public record.  I don't know if you are using this as a blocking tactic, one which the left really love to use or whether you are trying to characterise people that have an opposing view by using the bigot word?
2301
I'm not denying anything, as I have provided cold hard facts/figures on public record, including links to some of them.
Where are your's? I'm still waiting for you to be able to back your diatribe up with fact, and figures. Let's not forget the links to these facts, and figures. I want to see where you are getting your information from (only fair, seeing as I have provided them for mine).

I see no further point in replying to you until you can answer all of the questions I have put forth to you previously. You have made excuses about not being able to quote me; you have side-stepped reasonable argument, and it's about time you came up with the goods. You're only further proving that you are incapable of any sort of reasonable debate about the topic, something which your denial points to you knowing very little about beyond Liberal Party spin.

In regards to your final line, no blocking from here. Just stating a simple fact as displayed by your posts - they are ignorant, and bigoted.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Oh come on.  Australia wasn't largely built by refugees!  Yes, a lot of hard working migrants particularly after WW2 helped and contributed but on a whole refugees only started arriving in the late 1970's.  I think Australia was well and truly established by then.  

That sounds like something a year 8 History teacher has said.
2301
In which case, the year eight history teacher would be correct.

South Australia's wine industry was built by German refugees who first arrived in the 1840s, quite some time before the "late 1970's". Australia's Jewish community was firmly established before WWII, and the post-WWII public works programs would have been impossible without the countless thousands of displaced Europeans.

Indo-chinese "boat people" began to arrive in the mid 1970s, following the collapse of the South Vietnamese government.

Perhaps you were unaware that not all refugees are of Asian origin...
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
....especially when a $33 billion hole appears in the space of 2 months!
2301

I think that's being a bit unfair, the $33 billion 'hole' is in projected revenue shortfalls into the future.  And it didn't suddenly open up overnight, we've all been expect it since the mining boom starting cooling off last year.
  9034 Train Controller

I think that's being a bit unfair, the $33 billion 'hole' is in projected revenue shortfalls into the future.  And it didn't suddenly open up overnight, we've all been expect it since the mining boom starting cooling off last year.
don_dunstan
No its not unfair.  Just the facts.   Labor  brought in a budget and had to revise the figures  10 weeks later

From the BRW  website.

http://www.brw.com.au/p/business/budget_update_deficits_blow_out_CQDRt3R8Lmm2uAoOa6r2qK

"Federal Treasurer Chris Bowen and Finance Minister Penny Wong have released radically revised budget estimates for 2013-14 and 2015-16 with treasury now expecting a revenue shortfall $33 billion greater than was forecast in the federal budget just 10 weeks ago."

that's Labor for you.  Incompetent.

9034
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
No its not unfair.  Just the facts.   Labor  brought in a budget and had to revise the figures  10 weeks later

From the BRW  website.

http://www.brw.com.au/p/business/budget_update_deficits_blow_out_CQDRt3R8Lmm2uAoOa6r2qK

"Federal Treasurer Chris Bowen and Finance Minister Penny Wong have released radically revised budget estimates for 2013-14 and 2015-16 with treasury now expecting a revenue shortfall $33 billion greater than was forecast in the federal budget just 10 weeks ago."

that's Labor for you.  Incompetent.

9034
9034

Of course, silly me.  Tony Abbott will never do anything like that I'm sure... he'll be the very paradigm of integrity and honesty.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
There's one key thing that all from the left either conveniently ignore, or choose to forget that they know.

A migrant ceases to be a refugee once they have found safe refuge. The UN Convention allows people to seek assylum, but does not allow country shopping.

A genuine refugee ceases to be a refugee when they leave the non persecuting nation of Indonesia to make an unsafe journey here. They become what even Bob Carr calls them 'economic migrants' and they are (rightly) not protected under the refugee clauses of UN.

Indonesia does of persecute Muslims (you'd be a fool to believe they did), they do not persecute Sri Lankans (who are fleeing what, exactly?). They are SAFE in Indonesia, Australia has diplomatic postings there, and yes Mr Womble, Cootanee, etc, this is where the 'queue' starts. Now the greens will tell us 'there is no queue' and to some extent they are right, it's not a 'front up at the delicatessen and take a number' queue, it's a 'lodge your paperwork and wait for processing' queue. It's an ordered process, a line up (or queue) of processes, not an ordered list of names processed in order.

Those that arrive with their paperwork in order, identification etc and are legitimate get processed quickly and probably have their airfares shouted for them to Australia, those that dump their paperwork, or otherwise conceal who they are, or have found to have done the wrong thing in the past wait for the trail to be sorted. It's close to the same process for everybody, hence the popular term of queue, but the later type of would be migrant do not hold up those who have got their smeg together and apply properly, hence not a queue as such.
Aaron
So in this case once they land in Indonesia they cease to be refugees in the eyes of the UN so what is wrong with then shipping them back to where they came from then. Nothing by the looks of it. So Australia will not be breaking any UN laws or rules doing it will they. Once they set foot onto Indonesian soil they are deemed to be in a safe country, so after that they are no longer refugee's but illegal aliens trying to enter Australia. Like I said all pollies want to pull their socks up of all the party's.  Just turn them over to their country of origin what else can be done they are citizens of that country and it is expected that other countries hand over citizens that are not their own back into the care of their own country. What happens to them then is out of Australia's hands we have done the right thing! If Indonesia did this no one would bat an eyelid and it would stop these oppurtunist people smugglers dead in their tracks almost. All too simple though when you can spend billions and make it look like a home away from home for these coming into Australia.

Those that throw documentation overboard should be treated as criminals as that is what they are they have something to hide if they didn't they would not do it even if told by the people smugglers to do it. I have no sympathy at all for these boat people simply queue jumping to get what some honest immigrant should really be getting in the first place. I will welcome with open arms and a cold beer etc any person who legally comes to this country, but I will not welcome queue jumpers who have more money than brains to get here and expect the world almost laid at there feet.

My bolding by the way in Aarons quote.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Oh come on.  Australia wasn't largely built by refugees!  Yes, a lot of hard working migrants particularly after WW2 helped and contributed but on a whole refugees only started arriving in the late 1970's.  I think Australia was well and truly established by then.  

That sounds like something a year 8 History teacher has said.
2301

Well this is where your ignorance is really coming to a head.

Many of those hard working post WW2 migrants were in fact survivors of the Nazis from the DP camps. Guess what... plenty of Australians didn't want refos here either and made sure they knew that once they were Evil or Very Mad

"During World War II, many people were taken from their occupied homelands in eastern and central Europe to work in German industry. Others fled their homes in the face of occupation. After the war they were unable or unwilling to return, and many were living in refugee camps in Germany.

In 1947, the Australian Government agreed to include such people in its migration program, under the Displaced Persons’ Resettlement Scheme. For a country whose immigration policies had always prioritised people of Anglo-Celtic heritage, it was a significant political shift, which in turn effected a cultural shift."

http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/partnerships/unesco/displaced-persons.aspx
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Barrington, to say that I am bigoted and ignorant is subjective to say the least.  Could you please show me where in my posts you have come to this conclusion as I have never said that I am anti immigration and nor do I believe that I am superior because I belong to a certain ethnicity.  Don't you think that calling someone bigoted and ignorant just because they have a different opinion to yours is just a tad bit hypocritical?  

As far as backing up my arguments, I can't see anywhere in your posts where you quantify your arguments (apart from the link to the refugee council) which is kind of ironic as you constantly accuse me of engaging in rhetoric and diatribe.  You constantly deny the hard facts that are out there on public record and are even conceded to by the Government, so I can't see the point in wasting time putting links and referencing when all you will do is deny and besides I am not doing a thesis - I am mainly interested in debating the logic behind your arguments which I am still trying to work out.

I must admit though, I find your posts very long winded to say the least and they are a challenge when it comes to chunking them down.  You know, it is not how much you write but how you write it.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Of course, silly me.  Tony Abbott will never do anything like that I'm sure... he'll be the very paradigm of integrity and honesty.
don_dunstan

Well, you can't deny the fact that this current Government have made an absolute art form out of smeg, lying and deceiving the public.

Yes, all politicians lie but this bunch take the gold medal.  Just because you think Tony Abbott will/does lie should not condone or let off the hook the current lot for doing it.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Well this is where your ignorance is really coming to a head.

Many of those hard working post WW2 migrants were in fact survivors of the Nazis from the DP camps. Guess what... plenty of Australians didn't want refos here either and made sure they knew that once they were Evil or Very Mad

"During World War II, many people were taken from their occupied homelands in eastern and central Europe to work in German industry. Others fled their homes in the face of occupation. After the war they were unable or unwilling to return, and many were living in refugee camps in Germany.

In 1947, the Australian Government agreed to include such people in its migration program, under the Displaced Persons’ Resettlement Scheme. For a country whose immigration policies had always prioritised people of Anglo-Celtic heritage, it was a significant political shift, which in turn effected a cultural shift."

http://www.naa.gov.au/about-us/partnerships/unesco/displaced-persons.aspx
cootanee
This still does not negate what the previous poster said about Australia largely being built by refugees.  A very blanket and unsubstantiated statement to say the least.  Yes, migrants worked extremely hard and contributed to building the snowy mountains scheme but you could hardly say they built the country single handedly.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington, to say that I am bigoted and ignorant is subjective to say the least.  Could you please show me where in my posts you have come to this conclusion as I have never said that I am anti immigration and nor do I believe that I am superior because I belong to a certain ethnicity.  Don't you think that calling someone bigoted and ignorant just because they have a different opinion to yours is just a tad bit hypocritical?  

As far as backing up my arguments, I can't see anywhere in your posts where you quantify your arguments (apart from the link to the refugee council) which is kind of ironic as you constantly accuse me of engaging in rhetoric and diatribe.  You constantly deny the hard facts that are out there on public record and are even conceded to by the Government, so I can't see the point in wasting time putting links and referencing when all you will do is deny and besides I am not doing a thesis - I am mainly interested in debating the logic behind your arguments which I am still trying to work out.

I must admit though, I find your posts very long winded to say the least and they are a challenge when it comes to chunking them down.  You know, it is not how much you write but how you write it.
2301
Stop avoiding what I've asked you, and answer my questions. Cite your sources. Your claims are far too vague, and make you look a bigot. If you don't like people thinking that of you, front up some evidence. I think I might be right about you - you won't bring any evidence of your claims to the table, because you can't bring any evidence to back your claims to the table. Are you gonna prove me wrong?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Well, you can't deny the fact that this current Government have made an absolute art form out of smeg, lying and deceiving the public.

Yes, all politicians lie but this bunch take the gold medal.  Just because you think Tony Abbott will/does lie should not condone or let off the hook the current lot for doing it.
2301

I have a strong suspicion that the same people bagging Rudd/Gillard will not be nearly as judgemental about Tony Abbott's lying once he's in office.

I'm not letting the Rudd/Gillard government 'off the hook' but some of the comments that have been made about their supposed incompetence conveniently ignore how the conservatives completely screwed our country under the guise of 'sound economic management'.  Do you really think they will be any different this time around?  Sure Gillard and Rudd have made big mistakes but come on, Howard sat on his hands while the infrastructure of this country rotted into the ground, manufacturing died (supposedly good policy) and agriculture withered because of their marvellous 'free trade' mantra, signing some of the worst lopsided free-trade agreements ever.  I'm totally with Bob Katter on that one - for some reason it was considered good policy to sell out our manufacturers and farmers because people like Rio Tinto were going to look after our national interests forever (yeah right!).

In addition to that, Johnny Howard completely asset-stripped the Commonwealth Government to the extent that major government departments like DFAT and DHS were forced to sell their Canberra headquarters and then rent them back from the private sector buyers (mates?) at extortionate rates.  Anyone who thinks that the era of Johnny Howard was a time of sound, competent economic management needs to take their rose-coloured glasses off and realise they were carpet-baggers shoring up their own (and their mates) futures - not ours.  Howard never gave a damn about Menzie's 'forgotten people', he was too busy successfully demonising boat people and appealing to people's personal selfishness and greed.

Case in point - "The Future Fund".  Whose future?  Not mine or yours - theirs.  A multi-billion dollar fund set up exclusively to make sure the Commonwealth can continue to pay the six-figure superannuation incomes for people like Howard and Costello long after the place has gone bankrupt.  Says it all, really.  If Tony was so much more honest than Rudd he would come out and tell us what programs will go under his leadership... but he won't because that's going to be in the bag of lovely surprises he's saving till after he gets elected.  That's because (what a shock) he's just as much a liar as the rest of them.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Stop avoiding what I've asked you, and answer my questions. Cite your sources. Your claims are far too vague, and make you look a bigot. If you don't like people thinking that of you, front up some evidence. I think I might be right about you - you won't bring any evidence of your claims to the table, because you can't bring any evidence to back your claims to the table. Are you gonna prove me wrong?
Barrington Womble

You expect too much. Laughing

Besides you don't get that depth of information in a cock jock rant or a 15 sec Abbott/Morrison news grab.

They are not about solving an issue, it's about blowing it out of all proportion for political advantage and there are plenty of those fear and greed buttons to push Rolling Eyes
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
So in this case once they land in Indonesia they cease to be refugees in the eyes of the UN so what is wrong with then shipping them back to where they came from then. Nothing by the looks of it.
David Peters
How do you know where they came from in order to ship them back? This is one of the reasons they destroy their paperwork and passports.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Case in point - "The Future Fund".  Whose future?  Not mine or yours - theirs.  A multi-billion dollar fund set up exclusively to make sure the Commonwealth can continue to pay the six-figure superannuation incomes for people like Howard and Costello long after the place has gone bankrupt.
"don_dunstan"
So you would prefer an unfunded liability? And you left some names off the list of those who's future was budgeted for, Bob Hawke, Paul Keating, Kevin Rudd, Julia Gillard, Simon Crean, Bob Brown and Meg Lees. There would be other names I could add too but I think those will make the point. Even those however are the smallest burden, what about the entitlements of EVERY PERSON ever to have worked in the Commonwealth Public Service? ATO, CES/Centrelink staff, Tresury, DFAT, Customs, Defense? The pollie's pay gets to almost insignificant when considered about the weight of numbers within Commonwealth services. I am pleased that you think all this is best left unfunded.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
That's a good point, Aaron.  Yes, if it came between providing essential services to the Australian people and providing defined benefits to retired public servants I'd take the Australian people every time.  I really don't think we are going to be able to afford defined benefit retirement schemes in the future - the fact that places like Detroit, Chicago and the State of California are broke has a lot to do with these schemes.  In another ten or twenty years they will have to be scrapped, there's no doubt in my mind.

EDIT: Actually we might not have to wait that long for the schemes to be scrapped.  Joe Hockey alluded to the scrapping of defined benefit schemes in his speech a while ago about "Ending the culture of entitlement" (not for politicians of course, just for everyone else).  Part of his argument was the the money invested to cover these schemes wasn't getting anything like the returns they needed to keep pace with the defined benefits so one way or another they'd have to go.  I'll be interested to see if they follow through with this idea once in office.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
That's a good point, Aaron.  Yes, if it came between providing essential services to the Australian people and providing defined benefits to retired public servants I'd take the Australian people every time.  I really don't think we are going to be able to afford defined benefit retirement schemes in the future - the fact that places like Detroit, Chicago and the State of California are broke has a lot to do with these schemes.  In another ten or twenty years they will have to be scrapped, there's no doubt in my mind.
"don_dunstan"
So in the meantime you still prefer an unfunded liability? You know you're a Labor voter when you do!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
So in the meantime you still prefer an unfunded liability? You know you're a Labor voter when you do!
Aaron

No, I'd prefer the money gets used for nation-building, ports, railways, highways, infrastructure - you know, the sort of thing that Howard refused to spend money on.  Not gambling on the big pokie-machine known as the stock-exchange.

It's interesting to note that David Murray was dead against the Future Fund until he was made head of it.  His argument was that it would reduce returns on the stock exchange for everyone else.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
No, I'd prefer the money gets used for nation-building, ports, railways, highways, infrastructure - you know, the sort of thing that Howard refused to spend money on.  Not gambling on the big pokie-machine known as the stock-exchange.

It's interesting to note that David Murray was dead against the Future Fund until he was made head of it.  His argument was that it would reduce returns on the stock exchange for everyone else.
"don_dunstan"
What you meant to was 'Yes, I'd prefer the money gets blah, blah, blah'. Unfunded liability it is for you then, not a smart person.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
I agree with some of what you say Don except the part about demonising boat people.  But, the Howard Government was still far more competent than the present bunch of morons. At least Howard had the border issue under control and did not run up massive debt, and piss so much money up the wall on stupid schemes that achieved stuff all.  How can anyone just vote Labor at the moment when you have clowns like Rudd, Shorten, Wong......blah blah.

Face it, the country is well and truly stuffed in every which way and we are all going to pay for it and I will even go as far to say that I predict Australia will be a second world country within 10-20 years.  That will make people on the communist/anti-national side like Bingley Hall extremely happy I would imagine because anarchy is better than stability to them.  Just another reason for open borders too.  

You sound like a rusted on Labor party supporter to tell the truth, because you are so negative in everything you say towards the Liberal party.  I define myself as a swinging voter and I have been and I still am very disgruntled with both parties due to their anti Australian policies, but I just cannot vote for the Labor party at present and probably never the way they are going due to their loopy left wing policies and attitudes.  The way I see it, it is akin to voting for the bloody communist party.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
What you meant to was 'Yes, I'd prefer the money gets blah, blah, blah'. Unfunded liability it is for you then, not a smart person.
Aaron

Oh, Aaron... It was only a matter of time before it went personal.

Unfunded liabilities only matter if the defined benefit schemes remain in place.  See my post above about Joe Hockey - I really don't think that these defined benefit schemes for the majority of public servants will remain in place with the election of a new Tony Abbott government.  In fact, it's probably part of this secret agenda that we haven't been told about yet.

Recall how you said categorically that the world was a safer place without Saddam Hussein and then moments later denied that you'd ever said it?  Please don't tell me I'm not a smart person, Aaron.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Aaron, don't forget the unfunded pension liabilities of the boat people and their relatives along with all the other expenses.  The likes of Don, Cootanee and Barrington will say that is quite legitimate where as the public servants are just nasty, lazy, bludging parasites.  Go figure?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
You sound like a rusted on Labor party supporter to tell the truth, because you are so negative in everything you say towards the Liberal party.  I define myself as a swinging voter and I have been and I still am very disgruntled with both parties due to their anti Australian policies, but I just cannot vote for the Labor party at present and probably never the way they are going due to their loopy left wing policies and attitudes.  The way I see it, it is akin to voting for the bloody communist party.
2301

I haven't voted Labor this century, I usually vote for minor parties or independents.

The only reason I appear to hate the conservatives is because there's so many people on here attacking Rudd/Gillard and I just want to remind people that while Howard gave the appearance of being competent he was actually engaged in asset-stripping and destroying our industrial/agricultural base.  If anything I'm leaning towards Bob Katter at the moment, I think he's speaking the truth about this free-trade bullsh*t we've been sold and the asset-stripping (privatisations) that's been occurring under both parties.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.