City loop

 
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
With the electrification of Adelaide's suburban railway network, could an underground loop be built around the CBD, it would bascially run (roughly) under the four Terraces which border the CBD, and has such a loop been considered? It would serve destination along East, West and South Terraces which are currently only served by bus, whilst esiminating dead-end trackage in the middle of the Greater Adelaide area and the need for trains to change ends at that station.

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  Sojourner Train Controller

Yes if the will and the $$$ were there a City Loop could be built under the terraces as you suggest. I once saw an interesting documentary on a New York station where they did just that, dug up whole streets, created tunnels and capped the roads over the top. I suspect the problem is the sheer cost of doing it. I am pretty sure it has been discussed before in terms of subway type system. Another suggestion that was looked at prior to the O'Bahn to Modbury was the possibility of the Rail going from the rear of the railway station and under Government house and through the parklands to connect at Hackney. I suspect it never got off the ground because of the cost factor. They then planned and began building the O'Bahn extention as a Tram Extension, but Dunstan lost the election and it was shelved. The problem being that they had already begun the work on the Hackney Underpass and had to complete it with no decision made on the rest of it, hence the O'Bahn scheme was commissioned.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Under the four terraces would be pointless. 50% of the catchment of the 'stations' would have no population source or sink.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
With the electrification of Adelaide's suburban railway network, could an underground loop be built around the CBD, it would bascially run (roughly) under the four Terraces which border the CBD, and has such a loop been considered? It would serve destination along East, West and South Terraces which are currently only served by bus, whilst esiminating dead-end trackage in the middle of the Greater Adelaide area and the need for trains to change ends at that station.
Myrtone
A loop exists as a basic concept but not in the form your talking about.

http://indaily.com.au/news/2013/07/30/subway-plans-force-change-to-uni-building/

An impression of the new University of Adelaide medical school. The easement for a future subway is beneath the green entrance at the centre of the building. Adelaide The University of Adelaide has been forced to modify the designs of its new medical school to incorporate a future North Terrace subway. The State Government required the university to leave an area of land in the new west end development vacant to allow access to a future subway track. Despite asking the university to change the shape of its building to accommodate the subway, the transport department says no modelling has been done on the potential multi-billion dollar proposal, nor are there any plans to fund the project.

The $130 million North Terrace medical school was announced earlier this year and will be built next to the South Australian Health and Medical Research Institute. University of Adelaide Vice Chancellor Warren Bebbington let the subway idea slip during an interview on the university’s radio station. “If you look at the picture (of the new medical school) you’ll see there’s a kind of bite out of the building at one end,” he said. “That relates to the fact underneath the site there is a future plan for an Adelaide subway, an underground railway, and if that were ever to be built they have to get access from above ground to sink pylons and things, so we’ve had to allow some air space at one corner of the building which accounts for the slightly unusual shape.” Bebbington later told InDaily the land next to SAHMRI for the new medical school was given to the university by the State Government with an “easement” which required no development in the area earmarked for the subway. The “bite” is clearly visible in renders of the medical school’s northern side. The render suggests the land would be covered by an elevated walkway, which presumably would not impede access.

The easement on the North Terrace site appears to be the only part of the subway program that has been put in place. A spokesperson for the Department of Planning, Transport and Infrastructure confirmed the university’s site was the only one with a subway easement, which was established in 2010. No detailed study of the proposal has been done, nor has any funding been allocated to it. “This provisioning is simply about long-term planning for Adelaide,” the spokesperson said. “The easement has now been refined as part of the planning and building design for the proposed University of Adelaide medical school. “While there has been a concept for an underground train link through Adelaide for many decades, the city’s population and transport demands are still not sufficient to warrant making this infrastructure a priority. Consequently no funding has been allocated to this proposal.”
article

Been sitting on this story for months, as too many stupid troll types to expect any decent discussion on it.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Under the four terraces would be pointless. 50% of the catchment of the 'stations' would have no population source or sink.
Aaron
Agree. There would be no point putting stations any further to the south of Grote/Wakefield St or to the east of Frome St.

A better move than a loop - if we had a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow which we don't - would be a couple of underground (or elevated) cross-city routes, perhaps Golden Grove to the Airport and Henley Beach via the current O-Bahn corridor and the city, and maybe one to the eastern suburbs linking into the Wayville-Glenelg section of what is currently a tram line.

Even if it's a realistic possibility it's all just talk now, with the reign of terror voted in on Saturday we'll soon be back to the way it always was (i.e. before the economic stimulus programs of the last five years) with funding of local public transport being the responsibility of the state governments.

Reserving a corridor along North Terrace is a sensible move though, it's fair to say there's a major chance any underground line will serve that area, and a minor inconvenience to some of the university's building plans is a price worth paying. After all, having an underground station right outside their campus would become a major selling point if it did eventually happen, given that their competition at the other medical school in SA is not within reasonable walking distance of a rail line.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

The MATS Plan included putting the rail underground down King William Street, probably abandoning the trams. At the southern end it joined the South Lines at Goodwood.

Had the MATS Plan not been abandoned by the hero of some here we would have no need for interchanges at Flinders, the Torrens to Torrens redevelopment of South Road etc. the roads would be built.

The real issue of a "City Loop", or which ever route, is the city. Employment levels in Adelaide CBD have been steadily dropping. What were once office blocks with 1000s of workers are accommodation places for students. Factories are now converted to apartments.

The people of greater Adelaide have less reason to go to the CBD.

The rail system is CBD focussed, it is the main, if not only, hub so the consequence is that less people have need for the rail system.
Electrification will only make it faster and more attractive to the FEWER and FEWER people who have a need to use it.

What must happen for rail to be viable is that commerce and employment must be returned to the CBD.

Ian
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Hence my suggestion of cross-city lines instead of inefficient terminal stations. People can still use them even if they stay on the train as it goes into the city and out the other side, or change to a different route at an interchange in the city.

The first thing that needs to change to get the B back into CBD is for the state government to abolish the Adelaide City Council. Local government is good for the suburbs, but as our state's capital city the government of Adelaide needs to be representative of the whole state and not local vested interests. It is absurd that a major business in the central business district (CMI Toyota) was blocked from developing their property for over five years because of residential zoning in the area.
  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Any chances of City Loop/Underground in Adelaide anytime in next 20 years died at 1800 Saturday night, there will be NO money for public rail projects, that is on record
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

That's actually one of the few things I'm with Tony on, local public transport was always just a state issue until 2008, the aberration of the last five years only happened because the money had to be spent somewhere to stimulate the economy and Kevin decided not all of it should be pissed away on pink batts.

The states were responsible until 2008, now they can just learn to take responsibility back again and stand on their own hind legs instead of begging for handouts from Canberra. Plenty of former Premiers they can call up for a chat if they've forgotten how...
  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Wrong, there have been federal hand outs for public transport in SA for many years, on the bus side since the MTT era, the Tram upgrade, extension and new vehicles all part funded by Canberra, and all rail upgrades including Outer Harbour all part done with Canberra money, subject to correction the 2000/3000's also part funded.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Weren't the 3000/3100s built on Japanese investment and leased by the SA government? Some of them used to have plaques installed in them saying something like that I thought?
  alcoworldseries Deputy Commissioner

Location: Auburn
Correct some of the original Comeng built 3000/3100's but not the Clyde ones
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
Any chances of City Loop/Underground in Adelaide anytime in next 20 years died at 1800 Saturday night, there will be NO money for public rail projects, that is on record
alcoworldseries
Yeah, pretty much. Shame it would still be a much better use of public money compared to pissing money into a freeway somewhere that fills up with traffic within 5 years anyway.

Only thought I had is for the state government to refuse to match funding for some of Tony's pet road projects, we can't afford it as we have to help Holden, run the desal plant to actually have water to drink and pay all of the public transport stuff. It won't get the money for a City Loop, but at least we'll have the electric trains to run on it.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

We need to remember that people voted for Tony and his road plans. The swing in SA was only bettered by that in Tasmania in spite of what Tm Koots says.

The SA people elected for roads to take them when they need to go rather than trains that do not.

Justpax said it very well. We MUST put the B back in CBD.

As a rail enthusiast I find it sad to say that unless centres of employment, education and enjoyment are located conveniently to rail transport hubs no amount of electrification or more frequent services will stop a decline in passenger numbers.

Sad

Ian
  Tallboy-Lemond Station Master

A loop exists as a basic concept but not in the form your talking about.

http://indaily.com.au/news/2013/07/30/subway-plans-force-change-to-uni-building/


Been sitting on this story for months, as too many stupid troll types to expect any decent discussion on it.
"fabricator"


There is a proposed loop, and there has been work done on the feasibility.

It can be seen in the Adelaide city council smart move strategy. The route goes under some large buildings in an 'interesting' alignment and will need to be built using a tunnel boring machine at a depth of about 20 m ( so under sea level) due to the buildings piles.

If our city had 10 million in the same footprint we may be able to afford it. Even with the former government chasing rainbows such an expensive alternative, compared to the cut and cover options that we could afford, will result in another planning study gathering dust and another consultant making some more profit.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The 'terminus' style of Adelaide station definitely works against the rail system as a whole but I'm really not sold on the 'city loop' concept, if only because of the sheer expense (as others have pointed out); that money could be better spent on completing electrification for a start.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Granted, boring tunnels would be expensive, but it won't be an ongoing cost, so the long term is an important consideration. Would employment levels have not dropped so much in the Adelaide CBD if the loop were already there? How long does it take for wealth generated by tranporting people through the tunnels to offset the tunnel construction cost?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Well as they have shifted the RAH to a new site why couldn't the Adelaide Railway station be shifted to a new site down by the old Adelaide jail after you fill in and compact what was the old jail garden there in that hole behind the Wye cabin there and build a new through station there. The Seaford line could simply go through to Gawler and the Belair line link up with the Outer Harbor line. Of course this would also need buses bought into the new station to make a proper interchange. But it might be better than the current dead end arrangement. Just a pipe dream here though.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

David

I hope that is not a pet proposition of yours because I would suggest putting it out of its misery right now. I am not in favour of abortion but that idea is one which definitely should not see the light of day.

Then again, it might work if there was a tram interchange at Goodwood. Smile
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
It was just a spur of the moment thought but your Tram interchange at Goodwood would be also be a splendid idea.

It would relieve the dead end situation though and allow a better use of the trains etc. A wild idea I know but going underground is right out the question here at the moment we cannot even afford to do much with the above ground existing railways without adding the expense of going underground with all that tunnelling. You would probably only need a couple of Island platforms for this if you were lucky. Like platforms interstate at places like Flinders Street and such like.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Why would you move the station even further from the CBD? Might as well make the main station APT, hey, at least that's already a through station...
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Why would you move the station even further from the CBD? Might as well make the main station APT, hey, at least that's already a through station...
Aaron

if it is a through station why is it called a Terminal?

Why do no trains pass through it?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Terminal station dosent always mean Its a dead end station

A relocated Adelaide Station next to the old Goal sounds very practical to me, as long as there are good tram and bus links to the CBD and surrounding suburbs.

If you really want a city loop, build It In the form of a street tramway, much much cheaper and user friendly
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
If the Belair and the Port Adelaide group of lines were converted to light rail connected to the Glenelg - Hindmarsh line then they would run through the CBD.

This leaves the Seaford and Gawler lines: bring them into the city under the length of Currie and Grenfell Streets terminating in a balloon loop in the east park lands.

This would be constructed by "cut and cover" with two platform stations at Morphett Street, King William Street to Gawler Place, Frome Street to East Terrace, and a single track station, Kent Town, under the Adelaide Bowling Club.

While the trench is being dug it could be deeper between King William and Pulteney Streets to accomodate a Queens Street Brisbane style bus interchange free of any other road traffic.

Lots of dollars, though - several train loads in fact.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

If the Belair and the Port Adelaide group of lines were converted to light rail connected to the Glenelg - Hindmarsh line then they would run through the CBD.

This leaves the Seaford and Gawler lines: bring them into the city under the length of Currie and Grenfell Streets terminating in a balloon loop in the east park lands.

This would be constructed by "cut and cover" with two platform stations at Morphett Street, King William Street to Gawler Place, Frome Street to East Terrace, and a single track station, Kent Town, under the Adelaide Bowling Club.

While the trench is being dug it could be deeper between King William and Pulteney Streets to accomodate a Queens Street Brisbane style bus interchange free of any other road traffic.

Lots of dollars, though - several train loads in fact.
kipioneer

Now we are talking! Wink

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