Modelling Standards - a general discussion. Be nice, please

 
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Aaron wrote:
Consider this, X is a standard that has a compliance between 10 and 15, Y is a standard that has a compliance between 9 and 12. Product A is made to 11, which standard does it comply with? Suppose B is made to 14 and C is made to 9 what do they comply with?

Translation to first grade maths for David:

You like grapes that are between 10mm and 15mm Your friend who has a smaller mouth only likes them between 9mm and 12mm.
Shop A sells grapes that are 11mm Shop B sells 14mm grapes and shop C 9mm grapes.
If you buy from shop B then only you will be happy, from shop C only your friend will be happy but if you go to shop A then both of you can enjoy a feast of the same grapes.

Tony
miktrain
Good explanation, but I hate grapes at any time.Laughing

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Aaron wrote:
Consider this, X is a standard that has a compliance between 10 and 15, Y is a standard that has a compliance between 9 and 12. Product A is made to 11, which standard does it comply with? Suppose B is made to 14 and C is made to 9 what do they comply with?

Translation to first grade maths for David:

You like grapes that are between 10mm and 15mm Your friend who has a smaller mouth only likes them between 9mm and 12mm.
Shop A sells grapes that are 11mm Shop B sells 14mm grapes and shop C 9mm grapes.
If you buy from shop B then only you will be happy, from shop C only your friend will be happy but if you go to shop A then both of you can enjoy a feast of the same grapes.

Tony
"miktrain"
ROFL!
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Good explanation, but I hate grapes at any time.Laughing
David Peters

Yeah, like I didn't see that coming Rolling Eyes
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
Good explanation, but I hate grapes at any time.Laughing
David Peters
Well I was going to use the "standard" apples they use at school, but there is not much flesh on a 9mm apple.

Tony
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Mr Flynn,

My agenda is pointing out in no uncertain terms that your are pushing your own barrow trying to solve a problem that WE the modelling public DON'T HAVE.

We are all following AMRA standards except for those few using code 83 track.

SO WHAT.

You didn't design the standards, so why bang on trying to convince us that you're God's gift to modellers?

I have one of your beautifully designed brass kits from long ago, but they weren't your wheels in the package, were they?

Enough.

Paul
FirstStopCentral
Paul,

I did advise you not to post in this thread until you knew something about standards.

Those using Peco ode 83 turnouts will also be complying with AMRA standards.

I did design the current AMRA standards. If I did not who did? This question was posed before .Write to the AMRA and ask the question, and see what answer you get.  Repeating your misinformation will not change the facts.

The wheels were steam era RP25-110's, manufactured before the current version of the AMRA standard was written, and they used the same check gauge current Peco track used, that is 15.2mm. The current AMRA standard uses this dimension.

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

No Mark only when I get a derailment caused by the point which is practically never, but on the older Insulfrog points I did. I made new Guard rails set to the NMRA standard, but I now do not use any of these points not even new ones anymore too much trouble for my liking, I use all Electrofog points  as they come out of the box, if it is at all possible Double slips and like I have to take second best on but I don't use them that often.  So really what I am actually doing is setting wheels to the NMRA standard and using track and points made to BRMB standards and yes it does work.
David Peters
Peco points vary and I doubt if today's are designed to the often criticized BRMB standard. Try the European NEM track standards. You are setting wheels back to back to a particular dimension (close to 14.4mm) using your NMRA gauge. The NMRA standard allows wheels that are over gauge for Peco code75 and 100 turnouts.
It still does not change the fact you are complying with AMRA standards. The question is why do you hide this fact? I sense some political agenda here.

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

I'm sure he would, he has told us countless times that he has supposedly designed the AMRA standards that Peco points conform to, I personally think he measured a Peco point and then wrote the standard claiming it as his own. But that is just my opinion.

Wayne
hosk1956
Of course I measured numerous Peco turnouts, and most other brands as well. There is no point in the AMRA standards not being compatible with RTR turnouts. Turnouts built to NMRA and NEM standards also comply with the AMRA standards. That is the strength of the new AMRA standards, they do not restrict the modeller or manufacturer unnecessarily. It's clear you still don't have a clue about these standards, their function or how they are developed.

Terry Flynn.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Terry before you got on here and started blasting away about AMRA standards I did not even know they existed. We don't have the AMRA in South Australia that I know of, so I have never had anyone offer to let me me look at your standards until you posted a link on here to the AMRA website that is. So actually most of us here have not been adhering to your AMRA standards, but just following our noses a lot. I still do not follow the AMRA standards that I know of and I am not going to waste time reading something I probably will never need or use ever. So if the points comply to your standard then your standard being the newer one has copied what an oversea's manufacturer has already done and been using for decades. Which is what Wayne pointed out. Peco points etc have been around for decades now.

Nearly every layout I have visited here in South Australia most if not to a one off standard Like P4 or something most of the owners have and use a NMRA gauge for their tracks in HO. I have never seen any homemade gauges that comply to anything else unless of course it is one of the other one off standards that some one uses. All the HO layout builders I have seen all have their trusty NMRA gauge at the ready in case something goes wrong on it. And yes some of these layouts I have had the privilege to run have had homemade points that just about anything will go go through flawlessly. One late modeller I held in very high esteem and nearly all his points were home made way back when he first started in the 1950's I think it was. Try telling me he used AMRA standards it just so happens that you have stumbled on to the very thing this gentleman already knew and used back then. Just because you put pen to paper first does not mean you are the originator of it. You are simply the first to collate it all into a sensible standard if you can call it that.

We used to call this the Filsell Standard as a bit of a joke back in the 1970's though after the guy that made the points and worked it all out. I don't know for sure if he based his on anything, I think it was more trial and error to fine tune it though to finally arrive at what would work for him. All his layouts that he built over the years complied to his standards, bar one small one he helped build for the model railway club here, this layout used Sentinal points, I think they were with fibre bases and I still have a couple of these points that were left over from it that I bought from him on my layout in the fiddle yard and a modern Austrains or Auscision goes over these flawlessly, they are pretty course though and I do not know what standard these comply to if they comply to any standard at all.

I am not saying your standards are wrong though if you want to abide by them but just point out that there are alternatives to your standards and they do work for most of us. The AMRA does not represent every railway modeller in Australia only those that are in the AMRA which I am not. So really all it is is a club standard of sorts. Good for the AMRA members but don't force the rest of us to use something that we have no time for really.
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
David,
It is possible to follow a set of standards without being aware of it.  When you first set up your Tri-ang set (or was it Hornby Dublo) did you know you were following a set of standards?  You were.

Mark
  sunnysa Junior Train Controller

The wheel goes round and round and still we go nowhere.

I am with David P.

I have been in this great hobby 38yrs and until this thread started I had never heard of AMRA standards.

Like others I was introduced to the NMRA gauge many yrs ago and have used nothing else and like many thousands in the world am happy it works.

I don't give a stuff whether My Peco points, or anything I do, adhere to AMRA standards or not.

If I am unknowingly using AMRA standards and it makes Terry and his followers deliriously happy I am so pleased for him/them.

In my 72yrs on this mortal coil I have met a few like Terry, they always have to be right.

Even when wrong they are still right.

If this offends, so be it.

I leave you all with MFR.

Cheers

Ian
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Terry before you got on here and started blasting away about AMRA standards I did not even know they existed. We don't have the AMRA in South Australia that I know of, so I have never had anyone offer to let me me look at your standards until you posted a link on here to the AMRA website that is. So actually most of us here have not been adhering to your AMRA standards, but just following our noses a lot. I still do not follow the AMRA standards that I know of and I am not going to waste time reading something I probably will never need or use ever. So if the points comply to your standard then your standard being the newer one has copied what an oversea's manufacturer has already done and been using for decades. Which is what Wayne pointed out. Peco points etc have been around for decades now.

Nearly every layout I have visited here in South Australia most if not to a one off standard Like P4 or something most of the owners have and use a NMRA gauge for their tracks in HO. I have never seen any homemade gauges that comply to anything else unless of course it is one of the other one off standards that some one uses. All the HO layout builders I have seen all have their trusty NMRA gauge at the ready in case something goes wrong on it. And yes some of these layouts I have had the privilege to run have had homemade points that just about anything will go go through flawlessly. One late modeller I held in very high esteem and nearly all his points were home made way back when he first started in the 1950's I think it was. Try telling me he used AMRA standards it just so happens that you have stumbled on to the very thing this gentleman already knew and used back then. Just because you put pen to paper first does not mean you are the originator of it. You are simply the first to collate it all into a sensible standard if you can call it that.

We used to call this the Filsell Standard as a bit of a joke back in the 1970's though after the guy that made the points and worked it all out. I don't know for sure if he based his on anything, I think it was more trial and error to fine tune it though to finally arrive at what would work for him. All his layouts that he built over the years complied to his standards, bar one small one he helped build for the model railway club here, this layout used Sentinal points, I think they were with fibre bases and I still have a couple of these points that were left over from it that I bought from him on my layout in the fiddle yard and a modern Austrains or Auscision goes over these flawlessly, they are pretty course though and I do not know what standard these comply to if they comply to any standard at all.

I am not saying your standards are wrong though if you want to abide by them but just point out that there are alternatives to your standards and they do work for most of us. The AMRA does not represent every railway modeller in Australia only those that are in the AMRA which I am not. So really all it is is a club standard of sorts. Good for the AMRA members but don't force the rest of us to use something that we have no time for really.
David Peters
What standard people who make their own track use is largely irrelevant to RTR model manufacturers. I can assure you that the NMRA standard was changed, and old home made turnouts from the 1950's and 1960's do not comply with the NMRA standards of today.
The AMRA standard is about achieving optimum performance and maximum interchange between Australian RTR and home made model railways. This it achieves. The NMRA and NEM standards do not achieve this goal, in the case of the NMRA standard it's check gauge is not compatible with most RTR turnouts, and the NEM wheel is overly coarse for most of us. There are other technical advantages that no doubt you will ignore.

You continue to down grade the AMRA standards without reading or understanding them. Have you read the NMRA standards? You and more than 90% of South Australian modellers do not comply with NMRA standards, even with an association that recommends the NMRA standards.

Mixing standards is a formula for inconsistency and derailments. Luckily you are complying with AMRA standards by using Australian RTR and Peco turnouts.

AMRA standards http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

The wheel goes round and round and still we go nowhere.

I am with David P.

I have been in this great hobby 38yrs and until this thread started I had never heard of AMRA standards.

Like others I was introduced to the NMRA gauge many yrs ago and have used nothing else and like many thousands in the world am happy it works.

I don't give a stuff whether My Peco points, or anything I do, adhere to AMRA standards or not.

If I am unknowingly using AMRA standards and it makes Terry and his followers deliriously happy I am so pleased for him/them.

In my 72yrs on this mortal coil I have met a few like Terry, they always have to be right.

Even when wrong they are still right.

If this offends, so be it.

I leave you all with MFR.

Cheers

Ian
sunnysa
Hey Ian,
Where am I wrong?

Which version of the gauge do you have?

It's easy to set your wheels over gauge using the NMRA gauge for Peco code 100 and 75 turnouts. I have seen it happen many times, especially if you follow the NMRA instructions.

Pot calls kettle black!

Terry Flynn.
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
Terry,my NMRA Mk IV gauge works well for checking my wheels & Peco Code 100 & 75 turnouts which need nothing done to them. derailing does not occur, so I am using NMRA standards for wheels & turnouts.

So I do not understand how you can say
more than 90% of South Australian modellers do not comply with NMRA standards.

Even the latest wheels from Bachmann UK & Hornby appear to fit into the NMRA gauge quite happily running thru Peco, Tillig & hand laid turnouts without derailments.

The AMRA standards are no doubt improvements but it is the constant statements about them, are giving many of us the pips.
Point people to the site with the standards on so they can read them at their leisure but don't keep banging the drum about them.

Every modeller has their standards and they are correct for their layout.
  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba
Of course I measured numerous Peco turnouts, and most other brands as well. There is no point in the AMRA standards not being compatible with RTR turnouts. Turnouts built to NMRA and NEM standards also comply with the AMRA standards. That is the strength of the new AMRA standards, they do not restrict the modeller or manufacturer unnecessarily. It's clear you still don't have a clue about these standards, their function or how they are developed.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855
"Turnouts built to NMRA and NEM standards also comply with the AMRA standards."

Me, confused? nah!

The worldwide standard then is "NMRANEMAMRA", now it's clear!
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Terry,my NMRA Mk IV gauge works well for checking my wheels & Peco Code 100 & 75 turnouts which need nothing done to them. derailing does not occur, so I am using NMRA standards for wheels & turnouts.

..................
sol
The check gauge on my NMRA Mk IV gauge does not fit any Peco universal (code 100 and 75) turnout that I have access to.  The check gauge fouls the nose of the crossing V, maybe yours are a newer version.  The code 75 I checked are about 3 years old now.

Mark
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
Mark, yes, just checked some & agree that some do & some don't and I find that if any do & cause derailments and the B2B are OK, a fine file fixes it but I guess out of 80+ Peco, I have only had to fiddle with about 5 over the last 12 or so years with the mix of wheels I have utilised.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Terry,my NMRA Mk IV gauge works well for checking my wheels & Peco Code 100 & 75 turnouts which need nothing done to them. derailing does not occur, so I am using NMRA standards for wheels & turnouts.

So I do not understand how you can say
more than 90% of South Australian modellers do not comply with NMRA standards.

Even the latest wheels from Bachmann UK & Hornby appear to fit into the NMRA gauge quite happily running thru Peco, Tillig & hand laid turnouts without derailments.

The AMRA standards are no doubt improvements but it is the constant statements about them, are giving many of us the pips.
Point people to the site with the standards on so they can read them at their leisure but don't keep banging the drum about them.

Every modeller has their standards and they are correct for their layout.
sol

It's a thread about standards, this is where standards is discussed. Don't read this thread if you are not interested. The AMRA standard deserves to be discussed in this thread.

Unless you are modifying your Peco code 100 and code 75 turnouts you are not complying with NMRA standards.

Here are the facts again.

Peco code 100, 75 and Tillig track check gauge = 15.2mm minimum
NMRA minimum track check gauge = 15.4mm minimum

Therefore any one, using the above turnouts without modification does not comply with the NMRA standard.

Allot of todays RTR UK models still do not comply with the NMRA wheel standard, either the back to back is still slightly under and or the flange depth is still slightly over.

So how about you stop banging the NMRA standards drum and support the best standard for the vast majority of Australian modellers.

Yes your individual standards are right for you if you do not have a derailment problem but that does not guarantee that your friends models will run on your layout. Following a common Standard does.

I was recently over at a UK model railway exhibition, and noticed a small 'Proto' 87 tramway layout. Talking with the builder, he admitted he scaled down the prototype dimensions and then adjusted things untill they worked. He did not need to have compatibility and interchange with other modellers. He had also built N scale 'exact' scale and even had a few Z scale models also to 'exact scale'.  He only requires his models to run on his track so there is no problem in his case with complying with a published standard.

Terry Flynn.
  sol Assistant Commissioner

Location: Evanston Gardens SA
Well, as I am involved with at least 5 large layouts needing 5-6 people to operate them with rolling stock of UK, Aust & USA outline with Peco 100 & 75  & Shinohara 70 turnouts & we can interchange locos & rolling stock without any problems as the wheels are all set up if required, using the readily available NMRA gauge.


One large SAR outline layout uses Peco Code 100 Insulfrogs & runs modern RTR without any modifications to track or stock without a problem.

It would be interesting to find out what the majority of modellers here in Australia follow in prototype. But that would be hard to determine.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Mark, yes, just checked some & agree that some do & some don't and I find that if any do & cause derailments and the B2B are OK, a fine file fixes it but I guess out of 80+ Peco, I have only had to fiddle with about 5 over the last 12 or so years with the mix of wheels I have utilised.
sol
If you use unmodified Peco code 100 or 75 turnouts, that are not causing derailments,that do not comply with your NMRA gauge, you are not comply with NMRA standards. If you run RP-25-88 wheels on your Peco turnouts, then you also do not comply with NMRA standards.
In recent years the only Peco turnout I have come across that is  under the NEM / AMRA check gauge is the code 100 3 way turnout. The rest are OK and don't need check gauge adjustment, as long as your wheels comply with the AMRA standard.

Terry Flynn.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Terry,my NMRA Mk IV gauge works well for checking my wheels & Peco Code 100 & 75 turnouts which need nothing done to them. derailing does not occur, so I am using NMRA standards for wheels & turnouts.
"sol"
You could not possibly be using your NMRA gauge correctly on your Peco turnouts, I have tried to explain this to David Peters 100 times, Peco turnouts are simply not made to the NMRA standard. They do not comply, that is all there is to it.
  PeltonPinch Locomotive Fireman

You could not possibly be using your NMRA gauge correctly on your Peco turnouts, I have tried to explain this to David Peters 100 times, Peco turnouts are simply not made to the NMRA standard. They do not comply, that is all there is to it.
Aaron
Perhaps there is some confusion as to how to use a gauge correctly?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Perhaps there is some confusion as to how to use a gauge correctly?
PeltonPinch
I'd say so, given that it's entirely unsuitable for Peco turnouts, yet 'users' swear by them...
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I will give you some things have to be done by the seat of you pants and the V crossings are one in a Peco point that a NMRA gauge will not gauge properly, but all the rest that I know of do or get close to and I still have my original instructions that came with my gauge as well. But I don't often need to use the check gauges on this gauge because everything I have runs through the Peco points superbly like they were made for one another. No derailments at all and most of the stock I have now all has these modern wheels and profiles on them. I have not needed to check a point in a long time and only do so if something is amiss which as I said is virtually never.

Terry stated that using the more modern wheels with Peco points results in derailments yet I and a few other hundred people have not had this problem, so if there is no problem why is Terry banging on about AMRA standards. If the points accidentally comply to his AMRA standards well frankly whoop dee do to most people. I think most of us are using more than one standard though, a mix of them to be precise but they all work for me and most others as well. So why bang on about it. Miktrain has even proved that the flange depth in the AMRA standard is still virtually a Pizza cutter wheel against a lot of others. So we cannot all be wrong can we. Keep the AMRA standards the other side of the blue mountains and the rest of us will be happy.

All he has done on here is confused us all actually by making statements that contradict what he said previously, no wonder some of us lower edamacated dolts are confused. Laughing
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
Perhaps there is some confusion as to how to use a gauge correctly?
PeltonPinch
The confusion is in Terry's mind, many many here have tried to tell him that we have NMRA RP25-110 wheels that quite happily go thru Peco points, he had continually stated that this can not be so because Peco points aren't NMRA compliant, then various standards were being dragged into the argument, fine scale wheels seem to be the big argument now, mud is being thrown around but nobody is giving in and double standards are being used (for your information Terry, I am quite well aware of standards and how they are used, I have been scratchbuilding in this hobby in various gauges for 40+ years, I build my own points in H0, H0n3 and gauge 1 so know full well what standards are for and how they need to be used, you should perhaps stand back and stop assuming that you are the ant's pants and accept that a lot of others in this big wide forum know their stuff as well).
I and many others have stated with total truth that NMRA wheels will go thru Peco points reliably, some have commented that in some cases the B2B may have to be tweaked, Terry jumps on that to say that "ha, you are not working to NMRA standards then", but we are still working within the NMRA standards tolerance, something that even he admits is in the AMRA standard (hence my double standard comment).
I for one will concede that Terry may be right about fine scale wheels and fine scale point work, I actually don't give a rats smeg, I am quite happy to run 'steam roller' wheels with Peco points, interestingly, my only fine scale engine is a Brass 520 class with Rp 25-88 wheels which has never to my knowledge derailed on any Peco points. I am not interested in fine scale so I haven't read your AMRA standard, I lay my own points to NMRA standards to run my NMRA standard wheels and by happy perchance, all my NMRA wheels run thru my Peco points, which is also good in that NMRA wheels are about as standard as you can get.
If I am doing something wrong, well so be it, I am happy, my trains run, on club layouts and others railways as well and vice versa, if you are having that much trouble running trains that you had to design your own standard Terry, I could have come around and show you how to lay track properly years ago and save you a lot of trouble.
But I do have one question which others have actually asked with no answer that I can find, if I was to embrace the AMRA standard, relay all my points and re wheel all my stock, where do I buy all those wheels that I will need, now I will need some replacement wheels for all my locomotives as well, my 520 is the only one I wouldn't have to convert, that is lucky???  
But I will be doing this to correct a problem that I don't have, so I am not sure I can spare the time, I won't have time to count the rivets on all my rolling stock (you do that as well don't you Terry), yeah, I know, I'm slinging mud but what the heck, it doesn't seem to stick on Terry anyway.
Having re read this post I realised I do have to own up to my 520 derailing on a Peco point, actually 2 Peco points, a 3 way and a double slip, both very old, I have tried shimming them but I suspect the bigger issue is the tight radius thru these 2 points, we have problems with other stock as well.
Happy modelling.

Wayne
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
I could have edited my above post but I thought I would come clean when I realised that I won't have to relay all my points as Peco points comply with the AMRA standards so I only have to worry about a few hand laid points.

Wayne

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