Deadlines and Deadlines- how long is a piece of string? And how they can confuse us?

 
  runawaytrain Locomotive Driver


It’s amazing one of the constant reminders I have when modellers get cheesed off with a manufacturer would have to be the Powerline Xplorer saga.  They promised it would be out in a certain year (can’t remember which year), then it was delayed for two years due to tooling and then continued to be delayed and in the end the Xplorer railcar was a fizzer and never came out yet we have Southern Model Rail Supplies actually promising an Xplorer Railcar plus also an Endeavours to suit and yes they have full filled their promise and delivered and yes they have kept their customers happy by constant updates on their webpage or even Facebook page.

Yes, Ausicision manage to do this, however we still have some well-known manufacturers who beat around the bush and some of them are known for even if you do ring them at a decent hour (Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm) you are met with an arrogant and very rude person on the other end asking why on earth would you ask why is your model delayed- yes manufacturer it is OUR money you are playing with and if you don’t like it either we go elsewhere or Consumer Affairs will be notified.

Just recently I phoned up Consumer Affairs in SA about an inquiry about a non-modelling inquiry and I got talking about deadlines and how some places say it will be out say June 2013 and July 2013 and October 2013 comes around and no communication and when the manufacturer is phoned there is a rude, obnoxious person on the other end berating me for daring to ask.

They said to me the problem with deadlines is that most manufacturers do the right thing and put disclaimers (like public transport operators for late running public transport vehicles) however some don’t do this and they are very ones who anger the customers the most.  However, Consumer Affairs did say that if you have waited more than two years for a certain product to come out and you have offloaded a deposit they suggest you ask for it back because that is just to see the numbers they will get and wait for it sometimes they can’t be manufacturers who come in at midnight promise the world and leave you empty handed but they have your money.

Consumer Affairs in SA get constant phone calls from modellers who have put down a deposit on a particular model and yes have not heard anything from the manufacturer and when they phone them the manufacturer treats them like dirt that is where Consumer Affairs SA steps in and they said on numerous occasions it’s the same manufacturer but they said since he is based interstate there is little they can do but Consumer Affairs contacts their interstate counterpart.  Apparently a well-known manufacturer who they didn’t name was given its final warning either they update their customers or even still treat them with respect because it’s their (i.e. Customer) money they are using or else Consumer Affairs in that state will find something to actually charge them with.

Yes, us modellers don’t like to be taken as fools but it is scary that our own hard earned cash is being used by manufacturers to in some extent fund some lavish lifestyles- one would hope not and yes it becomes more scarier when you have found out that the model that you desperately wanted is coming out in two years’ time and then low and behold they cancel the order and take away your deposit.  Whether this has happened to anyone here in Australia that is the ultimate question?

We hope and I still live in hope manufactures put more disclaimers in their advertisements and communicate better with their customers but given the manufacturing side of the hobby is sometimes only concerned for the quick return on their buck or even higher profits communicating with customers is actually the last on their agenda or not even in their mind.


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  ajbrown Junior Train Controller


It’s amazing one of the constant reminders I have when modellers get cheesed off with a manufacturer would have to be the Powerline Xplorer saga.  They promised it would be out in a certain year (can’t remember which year), then it was delayed for two years due to tooling and then continued to be delayed and in the end the Xplorer railcar was a fizzer and never came out yet we have Southern Model Rail Supplies actually promising an Xplorer Railcar plus also an Endeavours to suit and yes they have full filled their promise and delivered and yes they have kept their customers happy by constant updates on their webpage or even Facebook page.

Yes, Ausicision manage to do this, however we still have some well-known manufacturers who beat around the bush and some of them are known for even if you do ring them at a decent hour (Monday to Friday 9am to 5pm) you are met with an arrogant and very rude person on the other end asking why on earth would you ask why is your model delayed- yes manufacturer it is OUR money you are playing with and if you don’t like it either we go elsewhere or Consumer Affairs will be notified.

Just recently I phoned up Consumer Affairs in SA about an inquiry about a non-modelling inquiry and I got talking about deadlines and how some places say it will be out say June 2013 and July 2013 and October 2013 comes around and no communication and when the manufacturer is phoned there is a rude, obnoxious person on the other end berating me for daring to ask.

They said to me the problem with deadlines is that most manufacturers do the right thing and put disclaimers (like public transport operators for late running public transport vehicles) however some don’t do this and they are very ones who anger the customers the most.  However, Consumer Affairs did say that if you have waited more than two years for a certain product to come out and you have offloaded a deposit they suggest you ask for it back because that is just to see the numbers they will get and wait for it sometimes they can’t be manufacturers who come in at midnight promise the world and leave you empty handed but they have your money.

Consumer Affairs in SA get constant phone calls from modellers who have put down a deposit on a particular model and yes have not heard anything from the manufacturer and when they phone them the manufacturer treats them like dirt that is where Consumer Affairs SA steps in and they said on numerous occasions it’s the same manufacturer but they said since he is based interstate there is little they can do but Consumer Affairs contacts their interstate counterpart.  Apparently a well-known manufacturer who they didn’t name was given its final warning either they update their customers or even still treat them with respect because it’s their (i.e. Customer) money they are using or else Consumer Affairs in that state will find something to actually charge them with.

Yes, us modellers don’t like to be taken as fools but it is scary that our own hard earned cash is being used by manufacturers to in some extent fund some lavish lifestyles- one would hope not and yes it becomes more scarier when you have found out that the model that you desperately wanted is coming out in two years’ time and then low and behold they cancel the order and take away your deposit.  Whether this has happened to anyone here in Australia that is the ultimate question?

We hope and I still live in hope manufactures put more disclaimers in their advertisements and communicate better with their customers but given the manufacturing side of the hobby is sometimes only concerned for the quick return on their buck or even higher profits communicating with customers is actually the last on their agenda or not even in their mind.


runawaytrain
The simple answer is to not support them!

Allan Brown
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Yes, us modellers don’t like to be taken as fools but it is scary that our own hard earned cash is being used by manufacturers to in some extent fund some lavish lifestyles-
runawaytrain
And where is your evidence of this? Mention this to the face of any producer of models in this country and they would laugh out loud.

I am wondering what is going on here with you 'runawaytrain', are you using Railpage as a testing ground for story writing, this is the third topic at least you have started and then we don't hear from you any more.

And, perhaps not too surprising, each one is simply a whinge.Confused
  brissim Chief Train Controller

What on earth is the point of dredging up something that was the best part of 20 years ago. And if I recall, at the time Powerline may have announced they were looking the the Xplorers, but at no time did they ever call for or accept deposits. So what exactly are you bitching about now in 2013?

Tony
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
Let alone talking about what will happen in October 2013...

And I can take one guess who you're talking about. If the first guess is wrong, then it's obviously the other I'm thinking of.

And it's all about the approach...

Everyone says that you can take your deposit back at any time.

Albeit cancelling orders/changing your mind at Auscision will cost you a $50 Admin fee if you do so.

Wolfpac
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
It is about kicking the bull in the nads and running......
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
Like buggery and hoping you can jump the fence! Laughing

Wolfpac
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I and I know a lot of others no longer buy into models that are promised because frankly it is lost money in most cases if you wait longer than 2 years some are that long ago that some actually forget them. I now will not buy any model till I have seen one with my own eyes as glowing reviews of things on websites and magazines are not good, if they gloss over glaring mistakes or errors that should not have been made in the first place.

All very well to say support these manufacturers but all you are really doing is paying for production of something that possibly might never eventuate if the manufacturer / Distributor goes belly up over night or something. I am not against these kind of things, but it is a classic case of buyer beware and if you are too stupid to heed the warnings if they are given then when the bottom falls out of the bucket you can blame no one but yourself.

I am not saying the bottom is going to fall out of the bucket though but stranger things have happened in the past. So just to quote Consumer Affairs here in South Australia "Buyer Beware", it is printed all over their brochure's if you care to read them, interstate ones would probably be the same as well.

In the end you have to make the decision yourself to either go with it and risk it or to simple not get it. No one can make that decision, but you alone.
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

I and I know a lot of others no longer buy into models that are promised because frankly it is lost money in most cases if you wait longer than 2 years
David Peters

"lost money in most cases" what a ridiculous statement
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

When was the last time one of the major importers failed to go through with the production of a model more than two years after taking advance payments with the customer losing their money.
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
It’s amazing one of the constant reminders I have when modellers get cheesed off with a manufacturer would have to be the Powerline Xplorer saga.  They promised it would be out in a certain year (can’t remember which year), then it was delayed for two years due to tooling and then continued to be delayed and in the end the Xplorer railcar was a fizzer and never came out yet we have Southern Model Rail Supplies actually promising an Xplorer Railcar plus also an Endeavours to suit and yes they have full filled their promise and delivered and yes they have kept their customers happy by constant updates on their webpage or even Facebook page.
runawaytrain
Powerline never promised to release the Xplorer in a particular year. They may have estimated, but I have noticed many people take estimates or 'due' dates to be 'promises' and get very upset when they don't happen (which is of course frequently).

I think runawaytrain you need to get over the reality of the Australian model railway market and move on if you don't like it.

Sure some people haven't communicated as well as they perhaps should of but has anyone actually taken customers money and then said nothing about the project for years? No. Updates happen, sometimes infrequently for some of the producers, but nonetheless they all keep customers updated.  Having been a customer of all of them, and having waited for a considerable amount of time, I have been satisfied with all of those companies because they have kept me advised of whats happening.  Sometimes its been a bit unclear what the problem is, sometimes its been a while between updates (which is simply because there's nothing to tell us!).

The one thing that hasn't ever happened is an estimated time of arrival to be a deadline.

Regards,

Toby
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
"lost money in most cases" what a ridiculous statement
kingfisher
What is ridiculous about that statement. If money that is yours and you don't have it, and is sitting in someones else bank account rather than yours for say 8 years or more, then it is lost is it not, lost and lose can be used interchangeably and lost means to deprive someone which a manufacturer is doing isn't he if he has the money he has deprived you of the chance to use it elsewhere if you need it. So it is lost money until your model turns up years later.

Also I know of one manufacturer who has taken money and in a lot of cases models have not been forthcoming from him. Not one of the bigger ones though, what you would call a cottage industry. So it has been done.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Frankly, I very much doubt that the OP's conversation actually occurred.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
It has Aaron as well as a few other things as well. I often get to hear things at the NRM from members of the public who I do not know that complain about things like this. You try to steer them in the right direction but whether they take you advice is another thing altogether though. You might get a real surprise Aaron at times believe me.
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

What is ridiculous about that statement. If money that is yours and you don't have it, and is sitting in someones else bank account rather than yours for say 8 years or more, then it is lost is it not, lost and lose can be used interchangeably and lost means to deprive someone which a manufacturer is doing isn't he if he has the money he has deprived you of the chance to use it elsewhere if you need it. So it is lost money until your model turns up years later.

Also I know of one manufacturer who has taken money and in a lot of cases models have not been forthcoming from him. Not one of the bigger ones though, what you would call a cottage industry. So it has been done.
David Peters

If you are talking about the Eureka R or the TOR GM the money was never lost as there was nothing stopping someone from asking for a refund. As I said clearly a ridiculous statement and you were talking about after 2 years but have now changed it to 8 years.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
It has Aaron as well as a few other things as well.
"David Peters"
What? You were there when the conversation took place were you?
  wolfpac Minister for Railways

Location: Over here...
If you are talking about the Eureka R or the TOR GM the money was never lost as there was nothing stopping someone from asking for a refund. As I said clearly a ridiculous statement and you were talking about after 2 years but have now changed it to 8 years.
kingfisher
Exactly what I said 2 days ago, they will refund your money, you just have to ask (not directed at you of course, kingfisher!)

The money isn't lost - if you know where it is IE the company is holding a deposit for you, then you know where the money is. And if you hand it over to a company - irrespective of being a model railway company,

http//youtu.be/k5psRMoXm2g, Or Johnno's Shed Emporium, the money ceases to be yours any more. You have exchanged an amount for a deposit towards a product.

I love the way the OP hasn't even said boo in any of the threads they've started... Nothing like poking a bear and doing a runner...

Wolfpac
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

I have first hand experience of an importer who has not only refused to supply a pre-paid product but also withheld the original purchase price paid in full many years previous

While I will not disclose further details publicly this certainly wasn't the result of 'cottage industry' dealings

It is important to be aware that all does not end happily ever after in this market place
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Okay gw0071 sensibly don't mention details identifying the product or business, I wouldn't want you to go committing libel.

Tell us this though, why did the manufacturer decline to provide you with your allegedly pre paid product? Did they dispute the payment? Did they dispute that they had not sent it? Did you provide a proof of purchase? What other further action did you take to have the matter resolved?
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
What? You were there when the conversation took place were you?
Aaron
Finally I have got you, yes I was there actually. There were a few of us at the time talking about this and that and it came up. Twisted Evil
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
If you are talking about the Eureka R or the TOR GM the money was never lost as there was nothing stopping someone from asking for a refund. As I said clearly a ridiculous statement and you were talking about after 2 years but have now changed it to 8 years.
kingfisher
Well 8 does come after 2 does it not.  Someone not me mentioned that 2 years was the time limit or something but in actual fact some have waited nearly 8 years for the models and some are still waiting for some to come out.

Yes asking for a refund is there, but if someone in your family needs the money immediately for medical expenses etc or similar you will have to wait a bit for it all to be sorted out. I would rather myself like to pay for it when it comes in, then if little Johnny breaks his leg or something you simply use the money for that loco to pay for little Johnnys medical expenses. A lot of things can happen in your life in 8 years, some have even died waiting for their models to come in. We are not all 20 year olds you know.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I have first hand experience of an importer who has not only refused to supply a pre-paid product but also withheld the original purchase price paid in full many years previous

While I will not disclose further details publicly this certainly wasn't the result of 'cottage industry' dealings

It is important to be aware that all does not end happily ever after in this market place
gw0071
I know from first hand experience some one who was treated similarly by one of the big manufacturers of Australian RTR. He ended up having to go to the SA Dept of Consumer Affairs to simply get his money back from them. It took many months and he did exactly what Consumer affairs told him to do, he contacted the manufacturer and got told to sod off virtually, as did another person who rang on his behalf later. He got it in the end but once bitten twice shy he is now and will only buy this brand from a shop or something now.

No it was not me but a close friend of mine, who shall remain nameless. One should not have to resort to this kind of thing to simply get your money back.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Finally I have got you, yes I was there actually. There were a few of us at the time talking about this and that and it came up. Twisted Evil
"David Peters"
Your presence was contiguous to the phone call?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Well 8 does come after 2 does it not.  Someone not me mentioned that 2 years was the time limit or something but in actual fact some have waited nearly 8 years for the models and some are still waiting for some to come out.

Yes asking for a refund is there, but if someone in your family needs the money immediately for medical expenses etc or similar you will have to wait a bit for it all to be sorted out. I would rather myself like to pay for it when it comes in, then if little Johnny breaks his leg or something you simply use the money for that loco to pay for little Johnnys medical expenses. A lot of things can happen in your life in 8 years, some have even died waiting for their models to come in. We are not all 20 year olds you know.
"David Peters"
If your finances are that tight that a preordered model is going to be a detriment to health access I'd suggest considering a less expensive hobby, or not preordering.
  gw0071 Deputy Commissioner

I know from first hand experience some one who was treated similarly by one of the big manufacturers of Australian RTR. He ended up having to go to the SA Dept of Consumer Affairs to simply get his money back from them. It took many months and he did exactly what Consumer affairs told him to do, he contacted the manufacturer and got told to sod off virtually, as did another person who rang on his behalf later. He got it in the end but once bitten twice shy he is now and will only buy this brand from a shop or something now.

No it was not me but a close friend of mine, who shall remain nameless. One should not have to resort to this kind of thing to simply get your money back.
"David Peters"





Sounds frightfully familiar David...

Aaron, I've sent you a PM

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