Photo's of Thirroul Roundhouse sort for model

 
  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana
Good evening guys,
The group I belong to are contructing a diorama for the 2014 Perth Model Railway Exhibition, based on the roundhouse at Thirroul.
Whilst we have been able to many photo's for the front of the round house, from either the net or from books, we have not been able to find any of the rear of the structure.
We need something to reference the windows so to ascertain how many panes high and wide in each bay. Also if there was a workshop attached anywhere along the rear wall.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

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  a6et Minister for Railways

Good evening guys,
The group I belong to are contructing a diorama for the 2014 Perth Model Railway Exhibition, based on the roundhouse at Thirroul.
Whilst we have been able to many photo's for the front of the round house, from either the net or from books, we have not been able to find any of the rear of the structure.
We need something to reference the windows so to ascertain how many panes high and wide in each bay. Also if there was a workshop attached anywhere along the rear wall.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
ALCO4401

I cannot provide an exact answer to the roundhouse at Thirroul, however as I am in the process of building a standard NSWGR one myself, that being the saw tooth roof type & being 81ft deep, which is the same type as built at Thiroul.

What the rear wall was built with is brick wall up to 5'6" high then the windows.  If you can obtain the early Byways book that has an article on Broken Hill, while that RH was only a few stalls rather than the larger one at Thirroul, the plans & drawings in that will give a good example of the standard RH.

Generally though the windows were of 3 sections, within the 24' spacings, each 6'6" high, the outside 2 sections had 3 sets of 2 panes wide & 6 high, the middle section had 2 large windows of 3 panes wide & the same 6 high. The bottom row had the middle set of windows as sliding, while the outer & all the top row were fixed.  

Some had a fixed louvre above the middle window sections.  The area above the windows was in corrugated iron as was the rear of the first truss, although in early days it likely had a window section of 2 panes later replaced with louvre or iron.
  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana
I cannot provide an exact answer to the roundhouse at Thirroul, however as I am in the process of building a standard NSWGR one myself, that being the saw tooth roof type & being 81ft deep, which is the same type as built at Thiroul.

What the rear wall was built with is brick wall up to 5'6" high then the windows.  If you can obtain the early Byways book that has an article on Broken Hill, while that RH was only a few stalls rather than the larger one at Thirroul, the plans & drawings in that will give a good example of the standard RH.

Generally though the windows were of 3 sections, within the 24' spacings, each 6'6" high, the outside 2 sections had 3 sets of 2 panes wide & 6 high, the middle section had 2 large windows of 3 panes wide & the same 6 high. The bottom row had the middle set of windows as sliding, while the outer & all the top row were fixed.  

Some had a fixed louvre above the middle window sections.  The area above the windows was in corrugated iron as was the rear of the first truss, although in early days it likely had a window section of 2 panes later replaced with louvre or iron.
a6et
Thanks a6et,
The measurements will be useful.
Regards
  br30453 Chief Train Controller

Good evening guys,
The group I belong to are contructing a diorama for the 2014 Perth Model Railway Exhibition, based on the roundhouse at Thirroul.
Whilst we have been able to many photo's for the front of the round house, from either the net or from books, we have not been able to find any of the rear of the structure.
We need something to reference the windows so to ascertain how many panes high and wide in each bay. Also if there was a workshop attached anywhere along the rear wall.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.
ALCO4401

At Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirroul_Railway_Depot there are two photographs of the roundhouse area.

On is an aerial view showing most of the back of the roundhouse and the other shops a structure attached to the rear at the eastern end.

Google search is your friend!
  a6et Minister for Railways

Google search is a friend at times but not always.

The caption showing the 59cl being c 1950's is incorrect, more like around 1964/65 as both oil burner 59cl, except on tours & early load trials were very foreign to the Illawarra, likewise the 48cl in the RH is a dead give away.  The photo also shows a few gunzels taking photo's so I would suggest it was on the tour hauled by 5911 with red boiler bands prior to its conversion to coal.

That said, the 2 primary photo's do show the rear walls & they being primarily windows with the lower brick wall.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks a6et,
The measurements will be useful.
Regards
ALCO4401

No worries

The Byways edition is 7. it also shows the rear wall arrangements, but you will need to work out a fair bit of the measurements with a digital or similar caliper but to help a bit there is a measuring bar along the base of each drawing.

In those photo's especially the one with the 59cl, looking over the top of the 59, & roof of the RH, you can see the top of another building, that was the roster clerk, DLE & office staff building. This is not shown in the large airial view, in the airial view at the rear of the RH near to the main line you can notice a white track leading up an incline, that is the footpath to the enginemen's barrack's.

The large verandah type building at the front at the departure/arrival road is the Chargeman, fitters & enginemens office as well as meal room area.

The tall high pitched corrugated iron building to the right of the 59 & closer to the camera, is the main store, the other ones are the fuelmen's humpy.
  Shed_Rat Train Controller

Location: 'A' Shop - Swindon Works
Although not Thirroul here is a link to a good set of detail photos found on the net of the roundhouse at Cowra http://www.flickr.com/photos/64228170@N08/sets/72157627166802106/with/5924746353/
  sandown Chief Commissioner

Location: sydney
Have a read through Ian Phemisters blog. http://iansmuswellbrookmerriwa.blogspot.com.au/
  a6et Minister for Railways

The RH that Ian is doing is different to that of Thirroul & while some aspects are extremely good in relation to some areas of building a RH, there are a lot of differences between them.   There is also a link in Ian's blog showing plans for a 75' RH that has a 75ft shed & pits also a 75 TT, which is a bit unusual, especially when one tries to find which depot had such a RH, the plan shows that it was signed off in the 50's, suggesting that maybe it was planned only rather than built.

Likewise a good article in the latest AMRM regarding the use of jigs is a good read & offers some tips as well.

The Cowra RH, is basically the same type as the one at Thirroul & the photo's do offer some areas of helps, the big problem though is getting plans with adequate measurements for them.

I have started a standard 81' roundhouse, & the big thing I have found & that is despite some good help from excellent sources including the blog by Ian & others, along with a lot of books & photo's there really is a dearth of information out there regarding roundhouses, the Byways edition on Junee again has some useful information, but once again a lack of general measurements are to be found.  The big thing though is that the Junee Roundhouse is deemed a modern type, & of all brick construction & a different roof line. The aspect also is that the roads are likely to be of a different angle owing to the 100' TT, the only one in NSW of that size.

My best recommendation would be to go & visit the Goulburn Roundhouse & get permission for photo's & to take measurements, simply because it is the same basic design & style as the one at Thirroul which includes the same size TT also.
  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana
My best recommendation would be to go & visit the Goulburn Roundhouse & get permission for photo's & to take measurements, simply because it is the same basic design & style as the one at Thirroul which includes the same size TT also.
a6et
a6et,
I take on board all of your comments and suggestions, however the last point above is a little hard to follow, as I reside in WA. And at this stage, won't be planning a trip to NSW until 2015.

If anyone is going down to Goulburn, I would appreciate if they could obtain measurements and photo's for us.
Cheers
  a6et Minister for Railways

a6et,
I take on board all of your comments and suggestions, however the last point above is a little hard to follow, as I reside in WA. And at this stage, won't be planning a trip to NSW until 2015.

If anyone is going down to Goulburn, I would appreciate if they could obtain measurements and photo's for us.
Cheers
ALCO4401

Alco, I guess a bit hard for a day trip.

Since I posted the last bit, I have reached the point with finalising the stall plans on my model, & it is based on a standard saw tooth RH such as the one at Thirroul.  As mentioned the problem is getting proper drawings with the measurements shown on them.

A couple of different types show the rear walls having centres of RH's to be 23' 1 7/16, & the other 24'.  With the entry being 13' & the other one 14', they are RH's with stalls of either 60 or 65' in length, rear to front centres, of main supports.  The Byways drawing shows the Broken Hill one to be just over 32', which is a very big angle & none are shown for the entry.  I certainly do not think, & I may be wrong though, that any of the larger depots that had the big engine roads, would have had that sized rear wall, & I do not think that Enfield #1 shed, Thirroul, Lithgow, & Goulburn would have had that sized centres.

What I have done, with my model is create the rear wall with 24' centres, & the entry supports at 15' centres.  They are ok for all my engines, with no issues of them getting between the supports.  For me a necessary compromise given the space I have on the layout.
  TinHare2 Station Master

I would suggest you contact ARHSNSW -

http://www.arhsnsw.com.au/resource.htm

They have some very detailed plans of Thirroul loco depot and also the surrounding buildings.

Michael
  anzac1959 Chief Commissioner

Tinhare2 is right ARHS@ Redfern will do the research for you but at a price . About $15 plus photocopying . Good call , I went there and they were vey helpful only problem was photocopier was r/s
  Shed_Rat Train Controller

Location: 'A' Shop - Swindon Works
Alco, I guess a bit hard for a day trip.

Since I posted the last bit, I have reached the point with finalising the stall plans on my model, & it is based on a standard saw tooth RH such as the one at Thirroul.  As mentioned the problem is getting proper drawings with the measurements shown on them.

A couple of different types show the rear walls having centres of RH's to be 23' 1 7/16, & the other 24'.  With the entry being 13' & the other one 14', they are RH's with stalls of either 60 or 65' in length, rear to front centres, of main supports.  The Byways drawing shows the Broken Hill one to be just over 32', which is a very big angle & none are shown for the entry.  I certainly do not think, & I may be wrong though, that any of the larger depots that had the big engine roads, would have had that sized rear wall, & I do not think that Enfield #1 shed, Thirroul, Lithgow, & Goulburn would have had that sized centres.

What I have done, with my model is create the rear wall with 24' centres, & the entry supports at 15' centres.  They are ok for all my engines, with no issues of them getting between the supports.  For me a necessary compromise given the space I have on the layout.
a6et
a6et,

On the subject of larger diameter turntables and roundhouses, the angles between the roads for No.2 Roundhouse at Broadmeadow is 7degrees 49minutes & 34 seconds, the same as for a 75ft turntable. Admittedly Broadmeadow No.2 turntable roads were in place from the original 1926 vintage 75ft manual turntable, which was replaced by a 100ft (the same as Junee) example when No.2 shed was constructed in 1948/49. The 100ft turntable was enlarged to 105ft in 1951 to suit the AD60 Garratts. No.2 shed at Broadmeadow is very similar to the East shed at Junee, the foundation drawing for Broadmeadow No.2 shed actually makes several references to the drawings for Junee.
  ALCO4401 Train Controller

Location: On the Branch waiting for a train order, west of Tarana
Hi Guys,
I have taken Tinhare's advice and emailed ARHS last night. Just waiting on a response from them.
  a6et Minister for Railways

a6et,

On the subject of larger diameter turntables and roundhouses, the angles between the roads for No.2 Roundhouse at Broadmeadow is 7degrees 49minutes & 34 seconds, the same as for a 75ft turntable. Admittedly Broadmeadow No.2 turntable roads were in place from the original 1926 vintage 75ft manual turntable, which was replaced by a 100ft (the same as Junee) example when No.2 shed was constructed in 1948/49. The 100ft turntable was enlarged to 105ft in 1951 to suit the AD60 Garratts. No.2 shed at Broadmeadow is very similar to the East shed at Junee, the foundation drawing for Broadmeadow No.2 shed actually makes several references to the drawings for Junee.
Shed_Rat
There is more to it than that, especially when you are working off plans, & the various depots as well.  The other aspects is whether or not the larger Turntables were placed in service at the same time as the RH, the other consideration is whether you are looking at the more common Saw Tooth roof alignment or the high pitched venting roofs.  

Most Round houses were built to a standard design, dependant on the roof type, likewise the size of service pits.  Junee being the most modern of all is unique in several ways, the brick construction, & the High roof venting, same as PTW, Valley Heights, 3 shed Enfield,  2 Shed BMD, Muswellbrook, Temora, Grafton, & Taree.  

The Saw tooth types were located at BMD 1 shed, WCK, Enfield 1 & 2 shed, Thirroul, Goulburn, Cowra, Orange, Lithgow, Kempsey, Broken Hill, Parkes,  as well as a couple of others.

Junee roundhouse East shed had 81 foot centre to centre post front to rear, which was the common size of the saw tooth types.  The Turntable issue is that in the main, most depots started with 60 foot TT's with normal rail spacings, those later modified to take 75' TT's had the pits extended to take them, the same happened with those having 90' TT's which had the pits enlarged.

When modelling comes into play, & having gone over quite a few plans, including one that floats around on the net, that shows a 75' shed, 75' pits, & 75 TT, that is unusual indeed, it was the original plans show a date in 1922, amended 2 odd months later, another amendment in 1924, & another one in 1952, that later amended plan is what is found on the net, yet I do not know where that is located, or if it was actually built owing to the time frame, & dieselisation would render RH's superfluous.

The thing is though when considering building a RH to plans & the angles, it would often mean that the average modeller would not likely have the room to build a large one, the one I am building is only of 8 stalls, & no matter how I set the angles, I have to also consider that the TT I am using may well be different to the standard NSW types.

When looking at the plans for the standard saw tooth RH, in Byways 7 of Broken Hill show the centres on the rear wall show them as just over 32' which is large & BH had a 60't TT, yet the angles of the roads suggest that they appeared wider than normal, while the net 75' has a shade over 23' centres, same as found on the Pitched roof types.
As I worked at Enfield & WCK for years, also went to Lithgow, Goulburn, Thirroul, BMD on a lot of occasions, which I wouldn't mind a few dollars for each visit to them when working, plus going Parkes on loan, & PTW, I do have an idea about them & the methods of construction.  Certainly Junee is different on many ways also, with the two sizes of the one Roundhouse, The use of concrete piers also.  Certainly it was the most modern of all NSWGR depots likewise the 100' TT was unusual for NSW also.

The wiki screed that shows Thirroul  which was posted earlier, also shows the depot as having a 75' TT, yet no mention of it being enlarged to cater for big engines working there from Enfield.

The one common element though in all of the RH's that I can find is the general size of the windows along the rear wall, & that is what was asked in relation to the Thirroul RH.

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