East West Road tunnel - the numbers just don't stack up

 
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Seems to me roads are done the same way many railway lines ere done over 160 years ago... some things do not change.

Will there be any disruption to any rail line with all this work ?

Regards,
David Head

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  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Seems to me roads are done the same way many railway lines ere done over 160 years ago... some things do not change.

Will there be any disruption to any rail line with all this work ?

Regards,
David Head
dthead
I'm sure the Upfield line will be affected.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Irrespective of the party, all decisions seem to be based on which of your "friends" helped your election campaign.  Very little seems to be done purely because it is good for the people that you are supposed to serve. Oh the joys, of a capitalist society.
shrekman
It's a plutocracy.  It wasn't always like that - look at Henry Bolte, Sir Thomas Playford... even Bob Menzies.  Tory politicians in the past used to care about looking after the masses, providing them with jobs, housing, health and transport.  Now-days all they care about is themselves and their mates.

My concern with this particular project is that all the surplus money is being drained from every other project in the state to fulfil this one massive hole in the ground and in the meantime nothing else will get done.  Our 'liveable' city is going to hit five million in another ten years or so and very little has actually altered to accommodate those pressures that the extra people bring.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

So the ALP are now saying they will scrap East-West link if contracts aren't signed before next year's election:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/eastwest-link-would-be-scrapped-under-labor-20131119-2xrqj.html

And given that the numbers don't add up, I suspect Napthine will have major headaches getting anyone to sign a contract.

The rest of the ALPs plan looks a bit silly since it says NOTHING about an airport rail link and they'll instead widen the Tullamarine Freeway at the Airport end - Muppets.

Removing 50 level crossings seems like overkill to me as well.
  Flygon Train Controller

Location: Australia
Removing 50 level crossings seems like overkill to me as well.
Carnot
I must most very strongly disagree! The more level crossings permanently removed, the better. They must be removed at some point, whether it's today or 50 years in the future. Quite honestly, the sooner the better for everyone.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
How much does it cost to grade-separate a level crossing?  Times 50?  How reliable are the costings?  Is there an allowance for inflation, because it would take years to get them all done?  

While it is a worthwhile and desirable plan in theory, there are so many other potential public transport projects crying out to be done and to be funded.  Rail to the airport, rail to Doncaster and Rowville, duplication of single track sections both metro and regional, high capacity signalling, new trains, track and overhead renewal, extensions and electrification, finishing the RRL and getting it right, fixing MYKI, new stations and station upgrades, possibly the metro tunnel - to name just a few.  Where do you start?  How do you prioritise, because there will not be enough money available to do all of them, even if the port is privatised and the East West tunnel gets shelved, even if roads which are now free become tollways.  

In the meantime, people get killed or injured at crossings while we build or widen yet more roads at vast expense.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
How much does it cost to grade-separate a level crossing?  Times 50?  How reliable are the costings?  Is there an allowance for inflation, because it would take years to get them all done?  

While it is a worthwhile and desirable plan in theory, there are so many other potential public transport projects crying out to be done and to be funded.  Rail to the airport, rail to Doncaster and Rowville, duplication of single track sections both metro and regional, high capacity signalling, new trains, track and overhead renewal, extensions and electrification, finishing the RRL and getting it right, fixing MYKI, new stations and station upgrades, possibly the metro tunnel - to name just a few.  Where do you start?  How do you prioritise, because there will not be enough money available to do all of them, even if the port is privatised and the East West tunnel gets shelved, even if roads which are now free become tollways.  

In the meantime, people get killed or injured at crossings while we build or widen yet more roads at vast expense.
Lad_Porter
The money from the widening of the Tullamarine Fwy and station carparks go towards single-track duplication and/or improving bus services. As for the rest, stuff the AAA credit rating, perhaps?
  frezno Junior Train Controller

While it is a worthwhile and desirable plan in theory, there are so many other potential public transport projects crying out to be done and to be funded.  Rail to the airport, rail to Doncaster and Rowville, duplication of single track sections both metro and regional, high capacity signalling, new trains, track and overhead renewal, extensions and electrification, finishing the RRL and getting it right, fixing MYKI, new stations and station upgrades, possibly the metro tunnel - to name just a few.  Where do you start?  How do you prioritise, because there will not be enough money available to do all of them, even if the port is privatised and the East West tunnel gets shelved, even if roads which are now free become tollways.  
Lad_Porter

Why is everyone all of a sudden standing around jerking themselves over High Capacity Signalling? As we see every day in the city loop we can runs trains at 2 minute intervals with our current infrastructure. Why on holy earth would we ever need a more frequent service than that in Melbourne? This is not Europe or Asia. People who want Melbourne to be like those places would be better off moving there than trying to change this once great city.

Do these people also not understand that once you introduce High Capacity Signalling you're 1 step away from driverless trains? PTV have already broached this by saying: "Lots of potential technologies than can stem from HCS systems for example train automation...". Again, driverless trains are something they may have in Europe and Asia, but this is Melbourne. Fatalities every few days, trespassers on the tracks, emergencies on the trains, etc. There is no way that I would ever catch a driverless train and if High Capacity Signalling comes in one day we wont have a choice.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The money from the widening of the Tullamarine Fwy and station carparks go towards single-track duplication and/or improving bus services. As for the rest, stuff the AAA credit rating, perhaps?
railblogger
I was surprised when Jeff Kennett told Napthine that's what we should be doing - borrow and build the lot.

I suspect even he can can see the population pressures are taking toll; more than a million extra people since his election and that's not counting the huge growth in the satellite towns.

The solution might ultimately be to come up with another way of raising the revenue.  Increased rates, special bond issues, peak hour main road tolls?
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Why on holy earth would we ever need a more frequent service than that in Melbourne?
frezno
Good question, especially if you live in Hurstbridge and want to get a train home on a Sunday night.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
One thing Napthine has talked up Is how many jobs this road project will generate, 3200 they say (not really sure how they count It)

Meanwhile Napthine Government has been very proud about boasting how many people are employed In the RRL project, there own talk puts the number at 5000 (again how do they count It)

But have a look at the timing ! RRL Is due to be completed at the end of next year, the same time the Government wants East West Link to start.

A large problem lies here, that 5000 workers would be wound down greatly before the completion of RRL, and the 3200 promised for East West link would take some time (maybe 12 Months) to ramp up to that number.

A lot of construction workers will be out of work, 5000 - 3200 = 1800 less workers required for a higher value project, and that higher value project will drain the State treasury for like a whole decade, mind you Metro rail tunnel Is mostly In the same boat (very high cost for the few jobs It will generate)

The Government has to think about jobs not just a line on the map.

Government (lets say) propaganda adds In local newspapers In West, South and Central Gippsland boast about how the East West Link will greatly enhance efficiency for goods and people traveling between Gippsland and the Port / City !

What a load of crap ! there Is a carpark - way thing called the Monash that goes direct to the City / Port, why would Gippslanders want to go on the Eastern carpark - way pay tolls on Eastlink and East West Link (that would add up to much more then CityLink tolls)
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
With reference to the news story posted on Railpage this morning about only 25% of Victorians convinced for the need of the tunnel... I didn't want to start a new thread specifically on that topic so I thought I would just post here.

There's been a lot of secretive market research occurring with regards to the East-West and it has not been very favourable towards the project.  One of the main problems is that people who reside outside the areas where the tunnel supposedly bestows its magical benefits don't really see how it will benefit them; hence we have this expensive advertising campaign at the moment under the smoke-screen of "Moving Victoria".  There's still a long way to go before the state election but twice in the last few months I've had love-letters from my local MP telling me how much better off I am with Denis Napthine's plans for Victoria, as well as a phone poll from the Liberal Party specifically relating to the tunnel (I told them I wasn't happy with it of course).
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
The Government must think the KGB is gonna leak out the true info on this project. Stupid Politicians still thinking we are in the cold war.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Government must think the KGB is gonna leak out the true info on this project. Stupid Politicians still thinking we are in the cold war.
Some rail man

The government knows it is a highly unpopular project and as such will work to restrict ANY news about the project.  Regarding DD  comments above, I tend to agree but I would add there is a little desperation in the theme of the advertisements. If a project was so widely accepted as being necessary then why would the government seek to tell everyone about what  great job they are doing when clearly they are not?

The advertisement cites all the wonderful public transport stuff but is designed to sell a road the public really don't want. Politics in Victoria has hit a new low. In fact it is worse that that now, it has become embarrassing.

I was particularly disappointed in the response from Andrews, Labors policy is so under cooked and mis-directed.  Who can we now turn to?

Regards
Brian
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
The road is going to happen. Objectors be damned. Futile just doesn't say enough about people's efforts in whingeing about this reality.

As for the public transport stuff in the advertisements meant to conceal the overall roads emphasis of their message, one only has to look at the tune the RACV is now pedalling.

Anyone who gets their monthly mag will have noticed that they relentlessly bang on about this that or the other road or bypass they want (as they have always done), but some time back some sneaky bugger there started slipping in support for some public transport projects, in order for that organiation to not come across as so onesided for road projects.

Im unsure exactly when this happened, but said sneaky bugger has modified the original RACV tune, probably in recognition that they'll get roads x,y,and z if they support this that, and the other public transport projects. Sly dogs.

Has anyone else notice this, or when exactly the RACV modified their tune??



Regards
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
The government knows it is a highly unpopular project and as such will work to restrict ANY news about the project.  Regarding DD  comments above, I tend to agree but I would add there is a little desperation in the theme of the advertisements. If a project was so widely accepted as being necessary then why would the government seek to tell everyone about what  great job they are doing when clearly they are not?

The advertisement cites all the wonderful public transport stuff but is designed to sell a road the public really don't want. Politics in Victoria has hit a new low. In fact it is worse that that now, it has become embarrassing.

I was particularly disappointed in the response from Andrews, Labors policy is so under cooked and mis-directed.  Who can we now turn to?

Regards
Brian
bevans

Andrews clearly doesnt understand the cynical voter looking at him saying "You lot had 11 years, and did sweat F all on level crossing removal in that time. Here's the door, now stuff off u idiot"!

Pity Napthine hasn't nailed Andrew's butt to the wall on this point. Regardless of whether Napthine's going to match it or not, timely reminders are always good value and hard to ignore.

Regards
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The government knows it is a highly unpopular project and as such will work to restrict ANY news about the project.  Regarding DD  comments above, I tend to agree but I would add there is a little desperation in the theme of the advertisements. If a project was so widely accepted as being necessary then why would the government seek to tell everyone about what  great job they are doing when clearly they are not?

The advertisement cites all the wonderful public transport stuff but is designed to sell a road the public really don't want. Politics in Victoria has hit a new low. In fact it is worse that that now, it has become embarrassing.

I was particularly disappointed in the response from Andrews, Labors policy is so under cooked and mis-directed.  Who can we now turn to?

Regards
Brian
bevans

A comment on the situation..................
Politicians behave this way because the people let them do it.
We live in a democracy not a dictatorship, its up to the people to call the shots. If they are to lazy or complacent this is the result.

Every country has the government it deserves.
(Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle mérite.)

Joseph de Maistre, letter to M. le chevalier de…, August 15, 1811.—Lettres et Opuscules Inédits du Comte J. De Maistre, 5th ed., book 1, p. 264 (1869).
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Woodford, I could not agree more.  I have long held the view (sometimes unpopular) that Australian's are happy as long as they have a VB in their hand and own a flat screen tv. They are happy just to let the world roll by.

I also believe Australia has the worst politicians in the world. They are very lazy and self centred and are only interested in themselves.

In the case of East West link, I think the libs have pushed the public a little too far on this one.  I think this project will be a disaster for them at the next state election.  The only question is can labor step up?  That at this stage is questionable.  Add to that the poor policy they issued which amounted to more roads and unhappy residents around the tullamarine freeway and you have a double disaster.

All Andrews had to do was put in some freight projects, fix the level crossings and commit to the Airport Link in a deal with the airport and start the metro rail tunnel (which he has done) and he was away.  He may already ahem snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

Regards
Brian
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I also believe Australia has the worst politicians in the world. They are very lazy and self centred and are only interested in themselves.
bevans

You can't get any further from the truth here.

Politicians these days are mostly focusing on building the nest for their carer after they call It a day In politics (or the public do so) then they live It up In the corporate world (helped by work the achieved In politics)  

One thing about Australia politics that seams to be different form politics In the EU Is Australia only seams to have two parties In the running to win a general election as In Germany/Deutschland there would be like 7 parties In the running to win a federal election.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Im unsure exactly when this happened, but said sneaky bugger has modified the original RACV tune, probably in recognition that they'll get roads x,y,and z if they support this that, and the other public transport projects. Sly dogs.

Has anyone else notice this, or when exactly the RACV modified their tune??
davesvline

I've also noticed this - interstate the auto clubs have long been advocating things like improved PT and cycling infrastructure so I think this is just a case of the RACV doing some catch-up.  There has also been some pressure on the board from interest groups to stop lobbying exclusively for road projects, as we saw earlier this year with a board election where many of the candidates were openly opposed to more toll-ways for Melbourne.  I for one voted for those candidates.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
One type of roads I think Melbourne needs to Invest much more In are off road bike paths.

Instead of pumping $Millions Into building waste full car parks at railway stations, bike paths should fan out In every direction possible.

Main bike paths Into the City like the Footscray Road path should be greatly Improved (grade separating from main roads)

Melbourne Is Australia's bike capital as It stands today (followed by Darwin) so any Investment would be greatly welcomed by the public (there will always be the die hard car drivers who will oppose any non road expanding, non car friendly city plan)
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Main bike paths Into the City like the Footscray Road path should be greatly Improved (grade separating from main roads)
Nightfire
That path actually used to be really good until they spent big $$$ on the truck overpass a few years ago - the bike path was basically made unworkable as a consequence of being to made weave in and around the road... but hey, who cares, they're only cyclists.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
That path actually used to be really good until they spent big $$$ on the truck overpass a few years ago - the bike path was basically made unworkable as a consequence of being to made weave in and around the road... but hey, who cares, they're only cyclists.
don_dunstan
That's the one, there Is massive about of scope to Improve this link, by building a new bike bridge over the Maribyrnong River and Sims Street ramps (that bridge bike path Is hair rising going towards the city), underpasses need to be built under Dock Link Road and the Port Railways a new bridge could even be built over the Moonee Ponds Creek linking straight Into the Docklands.

This path get heavy use.

One Important aspect about bike paths are they are very cheap to build (they don't need to be designed to carry B Doubles)
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
One Important aspect about bike paths are they are very cheap to build (they don't need to be designed to carry B Doubles)
Nightfire
But they don't pay rego, petrol excise, speed camera fines and parking fees.

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