Eureka R Class Arrives!

 
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hi Col,

I didn't realise the American stuff still had traction tyres! I guess some of the American stuff is cheap compared to Aussie stuff. How do the German manufacturers go I wonder. There models can be quite expensive, maybe on par with Australian outline items. They certainly look very nice.

I don't think it's so much what the prototype can pull although the Bachman Jubilee model would of showed up my previous plastic steam purchase.  I think it comes down to it being a model train and being used on layouts of which track plans and grades are more extreme that those in real life. It comes down to somebody wanting to haul a seven car passenger train, like the real one around their layout for the visual pleasure. The poor model locomotive has to negotiate tight curves, sharp grades, small radius point work, bad grade transitions and god knows what else. The requirements when building a model should have addressed these known problems and then been validated. The model should be able to pull more than prototypically possible due to it operating on a model railway, while its up to the modeller to do what he chooses with it. The R Class is not a small locomotive. If it were a Z13 class I could understand why there may be some issues.  

Anyway I am not a R Class purchaser. I can imagine how some feel after handing over so much money. Six hundred dollars is not cheap.

Hope somebody comes up with a decent solution.

Linton
linton78
Linton in on of my earlier posts I mentioned pretty well the problem of length loads on grades, likewise the sharpness of curves that the average modeller has to contend with.

I have minimums of 28'' radius curves an improvement on the old 22" although that radius is found in only a couple of spots the remainder over that & probably close to 34-36".  I have heard from some modellers that 36" should be the baseline of any layout curves, which is great if you have the room, & not a lot of modellers have the space for that.

My longest straight run is around 5 metres, which is good but still restrictive, the grades on them are over 1:75 so it does not tax any of the models I have, with the loads I put on them.  I am pretty sure though the 1:40/28"radius section would tax it if I was to try & run a standard type of long distance train that the real ones hauled in Victoria by themselves.

Thus compromise is needed but the thing is, just like you suggested at first & what I also said earlier that the importers need to get it right, & so does the factories, to ensure the models that we purchase can do an affective job out of the box, at least as far as possible.  Most modellers have some basic skills that help improve them, & many tips are put out & found here on RP, maybe some sort of sticky could set up, that allows for those who have found successful methods to improve models, especially the simple ones but also at various difficulty levels which also help the modeller improve their skills.

However, my only concern with that is, it could be an easy out for the importers to not do their jobs as they should be.

Sponsored advertisement

  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Hardly overdesigned, it is a large locomotive and when reproduced in white-metal, that is what it ends up weighing. It does not stall under load, it wheel-slips, which is the desired outcome. What does one of those white-metal 38s weigh, as it would be a comparable model. Roachie?
TheBlacksmith
Yes a white metal 38 is going to be a similar mass, however a Eureka 38 (about 340g) is more than heavy enough to pull scale length trains up scale grade. Comparing white metal kit weights with RTR models is academic, because you are never going to get RTR as heavy.

Terry Flynn.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Hi Col,

I didn't realise the American stuff still had traction tyres! I guess some of the American stuff is cheap compared to Aussie stuff. How do the German manufacturers go I wonder. There models can be quite expensive, maybe on par with Australian outline items. They certainly look very nice.

I don't think it's so much what the prototype can pull although the Bachman Jubilee model would of showed up my previous plastic steam purchase.  I think it comes down to it being a model train and being used on layouts of which track plans and grades are more extreme that those in real life. It comes down to somebody wanting to haul a seven car passenger train, like the real one around their layout for the visual pleasure. The poor model locomotive has to negotiate tight curves, sharp grades, small radius point work, bad grade transitions and god knows what else. The requirements when building a model should have addressed these known problems and then been validated. The model should be able to pull more than prototypically possible due to it operating on a model railway, while its up to the modeller to do what he chooses with it. The R Class is not a small locomotive. If it were a Z13 class I could understand why there may be some issues.  

Anyway I am not a R Class purchaser. I can imagine how some feel after handing over so much money. Six hundred dollars is not cheap.

Hope somebody comes up with a decent solution.

Linton
linton78
Linton I have a MTH GS4 here and it had traction tyres on as it came also included was a normal pair of replacement wheels and a box spanner for putting them on. I did run it with the traction tyre's on it but like a Lima model it wobbled badly, so I put the normal set on to it. No more wobble and it still has plenty of grunt.

By the way this model was not cheap either being a top of the range type of model that came with full sound and DCC equipped as well, it does everything bar make you a cup of coffee almost,it was $649 when I got it!
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
One of two R classes arrived today !  R761.

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120387.JPG

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120389.JPG

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120392.JPG

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120386.JPG

Still await another coal burner, number not known, I will be surprised !!!

Regards,
David Head
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

It is quite reasonable to ask a model locomotive to pull prototype loads up steeper than scale grades. After all, most layouts are compromised with sharper than scale curves, shorter than prototype tracks, yards, loops, etc. Similarly, grades are steepened to save space. A locomotive that will only pull prototype loads on scale grades, may as well be designed to negotiate minimum prototype curves and have scale sized flanges, etc. As a ready-to-run model it would be next to useless for most people.
NSWRcars
If you need to have steeper than prototype grades to save space, then you don't have the space to run prototype full length trains, thus you don't need the extra draw bar pull. I have no problem with my fleet of RTR steam locomotives pulling scale loads up scale grades, around under scale curves. The answer is to have free rolling carriages, no heavier than the AMRA mass standard, no springs on leading or trailing trucks, adjust weight to be between driving wheels.

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

And your test of removing the springs does have an effect? What a pompous reply, there is no evidence your test is any more credible than Bruce's.
TheBlacksmith
Bruces test did not compare the difference in train loads, he just had a preset load he wanted to get up the grade. The improvement was simply not enough for his desired load. The spring no spring experiment can be easily repeated by any one with a set of scales, locomotive and carriages and a grade on their layout.  Repeat the experiment yourself before saying there is no evidence.

Terry Flynn.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

As Blacksmith stated it is preferable to have some reserve in the pulling dept though as just being able to get that prototypical load up your 1 in 40 grade at home means nought, when you take that same loco and cars to a friends layout or to the club layout that has a steeper climb, with the reserve built into it it might just make it, but if it is only good for that 1 in 40 then you will have plenty of trouble with it elsewhere. I tend to want just a bit of reserve in any locomotive just to be on the safe side, so that running a prototypical length train does not strain anything. You can always dial up a bit more power if needed rather than have it burn out or something. I judge locomotives by the weight of them the heavier ones then I know will be better runners and pullers. It is like comparing a Lima model to a Auscision model, just say B class locomotive. The Auscision one should walk away with a prototypical load behind it, where as the Lima one if it is stock standard will stall most certainly with the same train. Other factors come into play here like different drive set ups for a start etc but you get the idea I hope.
David Peters
If your model just pulls a prototypical lod up a 1 in 40, and you visit a friends layout with a steeper grade, then do what the prototype did, either run the shorter prototypical load up the steeper grade or double head.

Terry Flynn.
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
What! No cup of coffee! I would have sent it back. I guess the manufacturers intentions are good by supplying both sets of wheels. If you have a layout that climbs to your ceiling within a few feet and you want it to pull an American length load then I guess the rubber tyres may be good.

Maybe we need to add working sanding equipment to our models ha ha. Not only will it add traction but also some weight! I am an ideas type of guy.

Seriously though I have recently stripped out one of my brass 38s so I could add sound. The brass 'shell' is not really that heavy and the chassis is weighty but not over the top. I think it comes down to having all the drivers firmly on the rail and a huge chunk of lead in the boiler.

I have never seen a model have so much traction and a motor so weak that the thing sits there in a stall. It's all about traction and that is the case with 1/1 locomotives also.

Sorry, I know the R class thread is being hijacked,

Linton




Linton I have a MTH GS4 here and it had traction tyres on as it came also included was a normal pair of replacement wheels and a box spanner for putting them on. I did run it with the traction tyre's on it but like a Lima model it wobbled badly, so I put the normal set on to it. No more wobble and it still has plenty of grunt.

By the way this model was not cheap either being a top of the range type of model that came with full sound and DCC equipped as well, it does everything bar make you a cup of coffee almost,it was $649 when I got it!
"David Peters"
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
One of two R classes arrived today !  R761.

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120387.JPG

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120389.JPG

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120392.JPG

http://dth.railpage.org.au/misc/rwin/P1120386.JPG

Still await another coal burner, number not known, I will be surprised !!!

Regards,
David Head
dthead

David, you're braver than I would be in selecting a location to photograph your R! Looks great, by the way...
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
took it downstairs,  hd trouble couplig it up, the fall plate came oof, and it seems at the sligtes movement it will uncouple.  
pulling, yep as many others say. mine got 5 standard powerline as cars up one grade but not the seppest one. and when spinning it's wheels it seems to hop up and down like a excited bunny.

Still it looks GOOD.  And sounds ok to me, just need to quiet it down a bit.

Regards,
David Head
  TrainTree Train Controller

Location: Eltham


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwfDZ33_PI8

R707 on the tracks. I must say I am impressed!
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
enjoy a fun take on  the R......




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl15XjSV95g&feature=youtu.be



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aK3oMPczAg&feature=c4-overview&list=UU049VZgUzmS2UfbtlW3W7Cg


Up the same  curve, the R did better pulling the same train in reverse......

Regards,
David Head
  kingfisher Chief Train Controller

enjoy a fun take on  the R......




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl15XjSV95g&feature=youtu.be



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aK3oMPczAg&feature=c4-overview&list=UU049VZgUzmS2UfbtlW3W7Cg


Up the same  curve, the R did better pulling the same train in reverse......

Regards,
David Head
dthead
Is that with or without the spring.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
out of the box, nothing done except  plugingthe tender in, trying to attach the tender, plonking on the layout,, and some running and trials before you saw  the above. I had threee test rrains, some gy / i /ia wagons with a zlp guards van as a goods train, set up to let  3801 just get it to the top. next was 5 standard powerline spirit cars again the 38 was ok with that too ( 5 cars was the test as  years ago I has  PSM R761 and that was it's limit) the third test tran was a E car pack fron auscision + 2 powerlinbe cars.  The 38 pulled them all.  The R could not match

But it was straight out of the box literally.

I await my 2nd R now !!!!

Regards,
David Head
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
I've relented or given in or similar.  Another EMRC member (who ordered just a few months back) got 727 two weeks back and it's been niggling at me that I should get a different number.  So I e-mailed Eureka this morning asking for a number change (nothing else), a positive response came back a few hours later adding that it would be posted today.  So now I will never know how long it would have taking for 727 to arrive.

If the locomotive gives satisfaction I might get a second, maybe 752.

Mark
LaidlayM
Posted Friday (as promised) and arrived today.  Looks like a good model so far, sound is good and I like the QSI features, much better than the LS2 in my R714.  Pulled a set of Auscision E cars plus extra van around the full length of my layout with no sign of slip.  I have a very long (about 20 metres) 1:50.  More load when I sort out the programming.

Mark
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
enjoy a fun take on  the R......

...

Regards,
David Head
dthead
For some reason that's one of the funniest things I've seen all day!  The model looks fantastic (still don't have mine but I'm in the US) but a pity they didn't think to weight the boiler.

Out of curiosity I weighed my SAR 720 (a resin kit on a Athearn plastic USRA 2-8-2) and it comes in at 360g although I have added some weight to both the leading and trailing trucks (5g each) after removing the springs.  And my AJIN SAR 523 brass comes in at 460g although it's pulling squat as its sitting in my "Mile End Railway Museum" after slipping out of quarter again (don't ask).

Somewhat tangentially (donning the firesuit) I've seen a number of people mention 1 in 40 grades.  Over here in Yankee land that's 2.5% which is considered extreme.  After this thread started I asked a few people in my operating group and it seems that most people agree that 2% (1 in 50), which is the normal "rule of thumb" in the US press, is more than they want.  Most people actually try for 1.8% and then assume they'll be shy of 2% after any construction errors that aren't found until too late.

If you've got a helix (and a lot of people here do) a 2%/1-in-50 grade drives the minimum radius to around 30"/ 760mm which makes for a large footprint.  Interestingly a couple of people noted that sharper curves / higher grades had led to some premature motor deaths.  But this gives you an excuse for helper sections which is always fun on larger layouts.

None of this excuses such an apparently light-on-its-feet model, especially compared to their other offerings, but thought I'd share.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

out of the box, nothing done except  plugingthe tender in, trying to attach the tender, plonking on the layout,, and some running and trials before you saw  the above. I had threee test rrains, some gy / i /ia wagons with a zlp guards van as a goods train, set up to let  3801 just get it to the top. next was 5 standard powerline spirit cars again the 38 was ok with that too ( 5 cars was the test as  years ago I has  PSM R761 and that was it's limit) the third test tran was a E car pack fron auscision + 2 powerlinbe cars.  The 38 pulled them all.  The R could not match

But it was straight out of the box literally.

I await my 2nd R now !!!!

Regards,
David Head
dthead
The NSW 38 should be able to pull more than a VR R. The 1 to 1 scale NSW 38 produced higher power, higher tractive effort and had a higher axle load compared to the VR R. What grade do you have?

Terry Flynn.
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
I forgot to add that the valve gear was wrongly assembled on one side and the wheels on the 6th axle don't touch the rail head.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Terry, that statement about the actual steam locos doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Clearly neither model is being driven by their cylinders so the 38's higher BP isn't giving it a higher tractive effort for the same 21.5" cylinder face (albeit with a bit more weight on drivers as you said).

Both models have 3 driving axles being driven by an electric motor.

One is clearly a lot lighter than the other, assuming no difference in driver wheel material/factory coating. The Rs drivers are only just shy of 6% larger.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

Terry, that statement about the actual steam locos doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Clearly neither model is being driven by their cylinders so the 38's higher BP isn't giving it a higher tractive effort for the same 21.5" cylinder face (albeit with a bit more weight on drivers as you said).

Both models have 3 driving axles being driven by an electric motor.

One is clearly a lot lighter than the other, assuming no difference in driver wheel material/factory coating. The Rs drivers are only just shy of 6% larger.
SAR523
I like to have the draw bar pull of my models consistent with the prototype. I expect  models of a VR H class to pull more than a model NSW 38, and the the model NSW 38 pull more than the model VR R and the model VR R to pull more than a  model NSW 32, just like the prototypes.

Terry Flynn.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Hi Col,

I didn't realise the American stuff still had traction tyres! I guess some of the American stuff is cheap compared to Aussie stuff. >

>>>>>>>>>>

Anyway I am not a R Class purchaser. I can imagine how some feel after handing over so much money. Six hundred dollars is not cheap.

Hope somebody comes up with a decent solution.

Linton
linton78
Hello Linton
I have several American Steamers produced recently, and they are definitely not a low end model.
I think A6ET once described the Chinese system as 3 tiered
1 Crap toy shop
2 Slightly up market examples Lima and Powerline (old?)
3 Top of the heap, Auscision etc

The 3rd group can get multiple changes to correct errors, whilst the second group get to change 1 or 2 mistakes if they were made by the Chinese only Otherwise they pay extra.

I think Powerline still take some short cuts and sit back in the Lima group Wink

BLI, Bachman Spectrum and Athearn (US) models are definitely in the Auscision grouping.
Without doubt you can use traction tyres if you design the wheel correctly, use very thin tyres, composed of materials that do not rot in  model railway usage,etc etc

The Company BLI has settled on traction tyres as the way to improve the operations of their fine scale locomotives. But these tyres are not to be confused with the old Power;ine versions known to most of us. And as I have said before, they do supply a set of replacement wheels should you not want the extra loading and hate the idea of tyres on your locos. I just lifted my NYC Hudson and although 20% larger than the Eureka Hudson, it seems to weigh more than double as best as I can feel (no scales)
Broadway Limited Fine Scale Models

Cheers
Rod Young
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
G'day Rod,

I have never heard of BLI before this forum thread, thanks for sharing. I had a look at the BLI website and there models are very impressive! I love the brass hybrid idea. I am a fan of steam locomotives made from brass due to the many benefits it brings. What I find amazing is the price. At under $600 for a large model, they are great value for money.

Double the weight you say! Well that will help the wheels stay put on the rail.

Thanks,

Linton



Hello Linton
I have several American Steamers produced recently, and they are definitely not a low end model.
I think A6ET once described the Chinese system as 3 tiered
1 Crap toy shop
2 Slightly up market examples Lima and Powerline (old?)
3 Top of the heap, Auscision etc

The 3rd group can get multiple changes to correct errors, whilst the second group get to change 1 or 2 mistakes if they were made by the Chinese only Otherwise they pay extra.

I think Powerline still take some short cuts and sit back in the Lima group Wink

BLI, Bachman Spectrum and Athearn (US) models are definitely in the Auscision grouping.
Without doubt you can use traction tyres if you design the wheel correctly, use very thin tyres, composed of materials that do not rot in  model railway usage,etc etc

The Company BLI has settled on traction tyres as the way to improve the operations of their fine scale locomotives. But these tyres are not to be confused with the old Power;ine versions known to most of us. And as I have said before, they do supply a set of replacement wheels should you not want the extra loading and hate the idea of tyres on your locos. I just lifted my NYC Hudson and although 20% larger than the Eureka Hudson, it seems to weigh more than double as best as I can feel (no scales)
Broadway Limited Fine Scale Models

Cheers
Rod Young
"comtrain"
  a6et Minister for Railways

For some reason that's one of the funniest things I've seen all day!  The model looks fantastic (still don't have mine but I'm in the US) but a pity they didn't think to weight the boiler.

Out of curiosity I weighed my SAR 720 (a resin kit on a Athearn plastic USRA 2-8-2) and it comes in at 360g although I have added some weight to both the leading and trailing trucks (5g each) after removing the springs.  And my AJIN SAR 523 brass comes in at 460g although it's pulling squat as its sitting in my "Mile End Railway Museum" after slipping out of quarter again (don't ask).

Somewhat tangentially (donning the firesuit) I've seen a number of people mention 1 in 40 grades.  Over here in Yankee land that's 2.5% which is considered extreme.  After this thread started I asked a few people in my operating group and it seems that most people agree that 2% (1 in 50), which is the normal "rule of thumb" in the US press, is more than they want.  Most people actually try for 1.8% and then assume they'll be shy of 2% after any construction errors that aren't found until too late.

If you've got a helix (and a lot of people here do) a 2%/1-in-50 grade drives the minimum radius to around 30"/ 760mm which makes for a large footprint.  Interestingly a couple of people noted that sharper curves / higher grades had led to some premature motor deaths.  But this gives you an excuse for helper sections which is always fun on larger layouts.

None of this excuses such an apparently light-on-its-feet model, especially compared to their other offerings, but thought I'd share.
SAR523
In NSW 1:40 grades were pretty well found on all main lines of the state, except out of Sydney on the Southern line where the ruling grade was 1:75 as far as Goulburn after that you were hit with 1:40 grades again.

Certainly that grade is not ideal on a model layout, but as you say it does give the chance for adding an assistant engine on the train over the applicable section.

The U.S roads had double heading on many lines & trains so no issue in operating them on the model arena.  I have looked at  many U.S shown in magazines & also notice how they have large radius curves but, they also have in what appears to be most cases, a heck of a lot of room to build their layouts, the average one over there would eat most over here, just like their loading gauge & locomotives.

Thus a lot of what we are talking about may be more common here, I know one thing for sure is that I am glad of only having the one short section of 1:40 & that is also on 28" radius curve, not ideal, but the option to not have it was to try & squash a Helix in, but that would have meant the same radius although a lighter grade.
  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

I like to have the draw bar pull of my models consistent with the prototype. I expect  models of a VR H class to pull more than a model NSW 38, and the the model NSW 38 pull more than the model VR R and the model VR R to pull more than a  model NSW 32, just like the prototypes.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855

Gotta hand it to Terry, he's a master when it comes to pulling power!

Paul
  a6et Minister for Railways

I like to have the draw bar pull of my models consistent with the prototype. I expect  models of a VR H class to pull more than a model NSW 38, and the the model NSW 38 pull more than the model VR R and the model VR R to pull more than a  model NSW 32, just like the prototypes.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855
That's a real example of astute & authoritative deduction, Sherlock Holmes would be proud.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.