The future of Dorrigo?

 
Topic moved from New South Wales by dthead on 30 Jan 2014 23:12
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Well, 12CSTV from Tasmania seems to be qualified in defending in undefensible‎‎ Dorrigo "line". He's been doing so for at least 14 years on various railway discussion forums. At least Trevor faded away. Go look on Aus.rail for their comments from a decade and half ago.
Now I just trying to find the Aus.rail thread where one of them remarked that they were "quite confident" that the museum would be open to the public in around 2 years. I think that remark was made around 1998-2000.

From Aus.rail I've found this, part of the Supreme Court outcome. Has the Dorrigo museum carried out all of this ruling?
allambee

Its interesting to see my contributions from over a decade ago have left an impression!
In all that time, it never ceases to amaze me the bitter hostility that has been directed towards Dorrigo continuously without let-up - pretty much all from outsiders with no connection to Dorrigo or from persons with an agenda (dating back to the dispute).

I know of no other railway preservation enterprise in Australia (or anywhere in the world) that evokes such hatred. Admittedly I have been involved in a railway preservation organisation in Tas. that split into factions some years ago, with some bitter recriminations. However, we grew up and got over it. Why can't NSW rail preservationists that embroil themselves in the constant criticism of Dorrigo do the same?  I'm convinced a good many of Dorrigos detractors would delight in the whole Dorrigo collection going to scrap. In most "normal" places, the efforts of the DSRM membership to persevere over sometimes interminable odds, continuing a quest to preserve many aspects of the NSW rail scene (most all of which would have been scrapped if not for Dorrigo), avoid constantly raiding taxpayer money or relying on Govt owned or granted assets, not robbing other preservation groups, deliberately sending prize exhibits for scrap or interstate or overseas would be celebrated and supported. If all the detractors got behind Dorrigo and supported it rather than continuously running it down, I'm sure all their complaints (lack of public opening, etc.) would have been solved by now!

I wish we had a similar organisation, like Dorrigo in Tas. (Or the other states for that matter), with the same fund raising capacity and the equipment, giving the ability to quickly rescue endangered rail relics. Many historic rail relics in Tas. may have been saved, rather than going to scrap or going interstate or overseas as a result.

As for the hopes for public opening, well, of course members had aspirations the DSRM would have opened well and truly by now, but issues crop up, things that need to be achieved to allow that to happen get sidetracked, manpower and funding run short........ When DVR in Tas stopped operating in 2005 they hoped to be up and going again in 18 months. Its now 2014 and they are still battling to get up and away again. They are close - but still not quite there. Is that their fault? No. Unavoidable external circumstances.

As for the Supreme Court ruling, as far as I know, yes.

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  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
I note with interest that 12CSVT has ignored my question about where the money really comes from.
He has also failed completely to rebut the evidence put up by allambee.
I think he lives in cloud cuckoo land.
Valvegear

Where does the money come from? Members own pockets! And from the pockets of supportive local businesses. The amount contributed by Dorrigo members absolutely astonishes me and I would love to see that sort of genorosity from railfans in Tasmania.

Have a look at my preceeding post and I have responded to allambee. However, I expect that whatever I will say, will mean nothing to those irrationally fixated against Dorrigo. I should probably ignore the ignorant and hostile anti-DSR&M propaganda that is constantly posted in these forums, as nothing anyone can say will convince them that there is anything remotely worthwhile about the efforts of the DSR&M membership, however, I am concerned that people with no agenda or connection with Dorrigo's past conflicts are being misinformed by the often offensive rot that gets posted here.

So am I am living in cloud-cuckoo land? Well in trying to reason with the anti-DSRM obsessives on here, I suppose I am.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

The museum would have indeed been long opened by now
12CSVT

A museum opening wouldnt have happened at all in 19888 or any other time if not for the "Friends" intervention, Jones and the Dorrigo group were evicted from the line in 1989 for disregarding State Rail Authority directions and running uninsured and unauthorised trains on the line using diesel loco 4206 .This eviction occurred many years before any action by the "friends" group to recoup thier equity in the museum, no they were not going to walk away quietly.
The Dorrigo groups legacy after running these unauthorised trains his been handed down to every railway preservation society in Australia in the form of the Rail Safety Act and Accreditation which was initiated by then Transport Minister Bruce Baird after the refusal by the Dorrigo group to co operate with SRA and Government directions.
  tezza Chief Commissioner



From Aus.rail I've found this, part of the Supreme Court outcome. Has the Dorrigo museum carried out all of this ruling?

Pre DSRM Ltd - up to late 1989 collection owned by old group
DSRM Ltd formed late 1989 - new aquisitions owned by DSR&M Ltd
50 acres - title in name of Fenit Holdings P/L (K. Jones + 1 other)
3½ acres and house - title in name of K. Jones
50 acres and 3½ acres paid by members of old group & DSRM Ltd
From DSR&M Ltd Newsletter No.1/1999 - the DSR&M Ltd / GMR Settlement
made it a bit clearer. Regarding ownership issues, both sides agreed to
support Supreme Court Orders which said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(a) declare that Keith Jones holds on trust, for the members for the
time being of the DSR&M (the "old group"), the locomotive collection,
rolling stock and other plant and equipment acquired by the DSR&M since
its formation, along with three and one-half acres of land at Dorrigo;
(b) declare that Fenit Holdings P/L holds on trust for the members for
the time being of the DSR&M fifty acres of land at Dorrigo;
(c) dissolve the DSR&M (the "old group");
(d) order that Keith Jones transfer to GMR the full legal and beneficial
ownership of the property referred to in Clause 5.1 (an attached
schedule);
(e) order that Keith Jones and Fenit Holdings P/L transfer the full
legal and beneficial ownership of all other property held upon trust for
the members for the time being of DSR&M, apart from the property
transferred to GMR to either (as determined by Keith Jones): (i) the
trustees of a charitable trust to be constituted and known as the
Dorrigo Railway Museum Trust; or (ii) a nominee determined by Keith
Jones; or, failing that determination and transfer within 24 months, to
DSR&M Limited.


Only (a) (b) and (c)  have been completed fully
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
The Dorrigo groups legacy after running these unauthorised trains his been handed down to every railway preservation society in Australia in the form of the Rail Safety Act and Accreditation
tezza

They weren't alone in doing that! And you make the subsequent tightening up of rules sound like it's a bad thing.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

The Dorrigo group were the only ones to operate unauthorised trains  on the line in 1986  resulting in their  eviction, there was no other group operating at that time.
The line was open for three months in 1986 from April to July and the Rail Safety Act and Accredition was initiated not long after this.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Where does the money come from? Members own pockets! And from the pockets of supportive local businesses.
12CSVT

In your earlier post - the one I queried - you said that it came from members' pockets, full stop. Nice to see others acknowledged.
Then, I am fascinated that you rail against those, "irrationally fixated against Dorrigo". I have no feeling for or against Dorrigo, and I am not irrational, but I do like to face facts. Dorrigo has been on the agenda since Cocky was an egg, and it's no closer to opening as a museum than it was umpteen years ago. It may come as a surprise to you that those of us who observe hard evidence disagree with you. Resorting to unsupportable statements like " irrationally fixated" doesn't prove anything and shows that you have a persecution complex. Where are your facts ( as distinct from your opinions with "WILL happen" prominent ) about when the museum will open? No doubt there is a working plan in place - what is its time frame?  What exhibits will be the first on display? Who will be the museum curator? There are thousands of questions in the Naked City - these are a few of them.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
The Dorrigo group were the only ones to operate unauthorised trains on the line in 1986 resulting in their eviction, there was no other group operating at that time.
tezza

Assuming that this is a response to my post, I didn't say or imply that anyone else operated unauthorised trains on that line, however it has happened elsewhere, so the Dorrigo group are not alone in doing so. There have been enough ramifications for these actions already, so I'm not about to post details here!
  Albert Chief Commissioner


The Dorrigo groups legacy after running these unauthorised trains his been handed down to every railway preservation society in Australia in the form of the Rail Safety Act and Accreditation which was initiated by then Transport Minister Bruce Baird after the refusal by the Dorrigo group to co operate with SRA and Government directions.
tezza

Rail Safety Acts are state based and it is not limited to preservation societies. The RSA was gong to be introduced anyway regardless of Dorrigos actions.
  allambee Chief Train Controller

None of these people bothered to mention the appalling state of the Heritage Listed 10 Class BEFORE the purchase of them by Dorrigo. If Keith had not arranged for their immediate removal, they would have been scrapped two months ago when Huntlee claimed their land, heritage listing or not, scrappers do not care. No-one has mentioned the fact that of the 7 10 class locos that were sold to Keith for $630,000 mind you, there are only enough parts to fully reassemble 1-2 of them...not that they will ever run either.
aussieloco

As I indicated before the threat of scrapping to the 10 class was non-existent and the story propagated by the proprietor of the Dorrigo museum and swallowed up by its "members" is complete garbage. There was another offer on the table from a Hunter based group to acquire the locomotives. The problem was Mr Keith Jones as usual threw a huge bag of money to Mr Richards because the 10 class were a hoarders "must have".

Its all mentioned in the NSW Government Heritage Council minutes on the following link.
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/heritagebranch/heritage/heritagecouncil/hcmin2013May392.pdf

Quote:
"The members received a presentation via conference phone from Robert Driver of
South Maitland Railways. The presentation outlined the community’s desire to retain
the seven engines in the Hunter, therefore retaining the link to the original area of
operation. The group unfortunately missed the opportunity to purchase the items.
Concerns over the future for the locomotives were raised at the Dorrigo site and
possible opportunities with the South Maitland Railways group were advised. The
members thanked Robert Driver for his presentation."



Is Robert Driver "Bob Driver" who put the book together titled "South Maitland Railways and Beyond"? and ex-SMR loco driver?
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
As I indicated before the threat of scrapping to the 10 class was non-existent and the story propagated by the proprietor of the Dorrigo museum and swallowed up by its "members" is complete garbage. There was another offer on the table from a Hunter based group to acquire the locomotives. The problem was Mr Keith Jones as usual threw a huge bag of money to Mr Richards because the 10 class were a hoarders "must have".
allambee

Well that itself is garbage. Keith didn't "throw a huge bag of money" at Chris Richards. He doesn't personally have that sort of money (or much at all for that matter) to throw around. The price was set by the vendor and the '10's were to only be sold as a job lot and despite Keith's attempts to negotiate on price, the vendor refused to accept any lower offers or to split the locos for sale. Keith put the proposal to the members (who would have to come up with the cash), quite expecting it would be far too much to ask of the members (considering that considerable funds are still required to transport a number of off site items back to Dorrigo). Some members weren't keen on the idea because of the exhorbitant cost (Personally, I wouldn't have agreed to it), but sufficient members were so keen to save the '10's and by putting their money where there mouth was, the demands of the vendor (rip-off merchant in my opinion) was able to be satisfied.

There may well have been another offer on the table from the Hunter group, but if they weren't prepared to put up the price the vendor demanded, they weren't even in the race. Had they matched the price demanded, they would most have likely got them, because a whole pile of dero '10's were a headache Dorrigo didn't need (all they would have liked was one) and the members would have been fine with them being preserved locally, but weren't prepared to see them get scrapped (which the vendor DID state would happen to them if he didn't get the price he demanded).

By the way, the question I asked in my first posting on this thread still hasn't been answered. What vehicles in the Richards collection WERE scrapped? I have seen photos of at least an 80 class getting cut up (didn't even realise Richards did have an 80).
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
By the way, the question I asked in my first posting on this thread still hasn't been answered. What vehicles in the Richards collection WERE scrapped? I have seen photos of at least an 80 class getting cut up (didn't even realise Richards did have an 80).
12CSVT

The 80 Class was an ex Greentrains loco, transported there from Werris Creek to be stripped of useful parts (by LVR, iirc) and then scrapped. Might have been a case of "stuff is being scrapped here anyway" sort of deal. I understand the other three 80 Class stored at Werris Creek are to suffer the same fate.
  moaner Train Controller

Location: Foever greasing those bevel gears
I might as well put my 2 cents worth in since just moving to the Grafton area. I (inc the family) have traveled up to Dorrigo many times whilst holidaying in the past. At fronting up to the fence I (we) have been shown around the collection by Keith, on these occasions I have always found him most accommodating, explaining what loco is what, where it ran etc. Yes I have seen his dark side and that was during one of those private tours when we stumbled across a bunch of people who had jumped the fence and were climbing on one of the locos.
As for opening the museum to the public this is what Keith told me(correct or not) he is having long going issues with the council  they are that he has to install a full set of traffic light system at the entry road, he has to build a car park big enough for like 20 tour busses and 50+ cars (inc caravans)and lastly all the toilet systems have to comply with the new "Bio green" regs.
To the locos/rolling stock... yes there is a massive collection yes the locos are coated all over in black oil and no they showed no major signs of "rusting away", they're "museum" pieces not OPPERATNG locos, do you see all the locos at the RTM in fully operational condition????. As to the rolling stock the place does look a mess but then so does my shed/workshop, what I did see is that the museum might have say 3-5 items of a single type of r/stock, they concentrate on at least fully preserving one item from each type of stock(using parts from the other items from collection) this preserved item will then be put in the museum.
As to the rail line I cant see the "Upper section" being reopened except for moving the collection around.
To me there will always be someone who wants to give negative impressions of Dorrigo or GMR or the RTM but all I can say is at lease these groups have saved, horded, what ever you want to call it, locos, rolling stock and infrastructure from the scrappers
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
So where to now? They cannot let all that pioneering history go to waste, they need to work together for the common good and put a plan together even if it involves selling some loco's to get a section up and open and run something, historical societies are between a rock and a hard place because there is more than one and the Government will not fund them when they have white elephants like the Murwillumbah line on their hands.
  Spletsie Chief Commissioner

The South Maitland group could offer to buy one or two of the 10 class from Dorrigo.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The South Maitland group could offer to buy one or two of the 10 class from Dorrigo.
Spletsie

Wasn't there a clause in the sale that they all stayed together?
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Wasn't there a clause in the sale that they all stayed together?
Raichase

Yes.
  Bullucked Assistant Commissioner

Government will not fund them when they have white elephants like the Murwillumbah line on their hands.
Junction box

Forgive me, what does this mean? (I'm not from NSW)
  fred59 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Boonah
in regards to the 10 class locos, nsw heritage also had to approve the sale of the locos and it was also there recommendation that the locos not to be split up.
  tezza Chief Commissioner

NSW Heritage were just sucked in by another Dorrigo glossy brochure  taking credit for all the old groups work in reopening the line and getting the museum to Dorrigo.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
NSW Heritage were just sucked in by another Dorrigo glossy brochure taking credit for all the old groups work in reopening the line and getting the museum to Dorrigo.
tezza

From what I have been told, NSW Heritage got involved long ago when they were co-opted by Richards to help him engineer his original acquisition of the '10's, when he missed out on the original allocation when they first came up for disposal. Nothing to do with Dorrigo.

Of course, when they were faced with the choice of them getting preserved at Dorrigo or going for scrap, their "embargo" on the locos leaving the Hunter region was shown to be the ludicrous engagement that it always was.

For goodness sake, the locos are being retained for preservation IN N.S.W.!!! And in roughly the same general region (just up the coast). All this ridiculous wailing and gnashing of teeth, one would have thought they were being sold to Africa or something!

Pity Heritage Tas. hadn't been half as concerned about the fate of  a lot of Tasmanian locos and rolling stock, which have been scattered around the country, to W.A., Vic., N.S.W. & Qld., with some (carriages) since having been scrapped or sold off as sheds, or (locos) butchered from 3' 6" to 2' 6". Now THATS something to get aggrieved about!  

P.S. Why shouldn't the current DSR&M take credit for keeping the original enterprise, started by the "old group", going up at Dorrigo, despite the best efforts of the "Friends" to destroy it all? Meanwhile, haven't the "Friends" done swimmingly down at Glenreagh? Ticked off the ITSR so much that they got a Prohibition order against them (that had repercussions on everyone), since scrapped most of the stuff they had awarded to them and now are actively considering tearing up the section of track they have in their care to turn it into a bike track!!?? Great effort. And DSR&M is made to look like the devil incarnate!
  tezza Chief Commissioner

Of course GMR are going so badly down the other end you goose, there's no one from the old group with them, they all left over a decade ago after Dorrigo members Bob Farquar, Russell Phemister and Andrew Lee manouvered themselves into board positions to bring GMR down and quickly succeeded. No one from the old group really cares now, the Dorrigo line wont be restored in their lifetime and as they had already opened the Dorrigo line once they are not going to do it again for free.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
Of course GMR are going so badly down the other end you goose, there's no one from the old group with them, they all left over a decade ago after Dorrigo members Bob Farquar, Russell Phemister and Andrew Lee manouvered themselves into board positions to bring GMR down and quickly succeeded. No one from the old group really cares now, the Dorrigo line wont be restored in their lifetime and as they had already opened the Dorrigo line once they are not going to do it again for free.
tezza

Well, the "Friends" abandon Dorrigo, try to nuke it as they leave. They have now abandoned Glenreagh leaving that a wreck as well. In the meantime you, say they don't care anymore. So why are their sympathisers hijacking every thread that ever appears on here that mentions Dorrigo?
  tezza Chief Commissioner

So why are their sympathisers hijacking every thread that ever appears on here that mentions Dorrigo?


The sympathathers probably derive great enjoyment, delight and pleasure , along with every other Railfan in the country watching  Dorrigo supporters make complete and utter tools of themselves time and time again for over 20 years with their complete lack of knowledge , logic, reason and with  whatever they are cacking on about in any forum whenever they defend the Dorrigo group. It began with Trevor in Ausrail around 1999 and still continues to this day.

Dorrigo was wrecked long before the "Friends" were neccessary after the Dorrigo eviction in the late 80s and long before the much heralded "first train into Dorrigo since 1972" reopening of the line in April 1986. Knowledgeable ex members also know the museum was wrecked years before any Supreme Court equity case regarding the members collection.

The Jones crap with the members started around 1981 shortly after initial work on the line restoration started and the museum was very lucky to get the line reopened at all and have that first train to Dorrigo, there would aslo be nothing parked in Dorrigo yard or abandoned along the line.

What they deeply regret was falling for the con 1973 when they were younger , enthuisiastic and easy to persuade in parting with their dollars and voluntary labour, they also regret not starting the court case in 1984 while all the locos and rollingstock were still at Glenreagh. Not everyone was brainwashed by the consistent bulls**t contained in museum newsletters over many years, there were some members involved that were thinkers.
  12CSVT Chief Commissioner

Location: Drowning in accreditation red tape!
The sympathathers probably derive great enjoyment, delight and pleasure , along with every other Railfan in the country watching Dorrigo supporters make complete and utter tools of themselves time and time again for over 20 years with their complete lack of knowledge , logic, reason and with whatever they are cacking on about in any forum whenever they defend the Dorrigo group. It began with Trevor in Ausrail around 1999 and still continues to this day.

Dorrigo was wrecked long before the "Friends" were neccessary after the Dorrigo eviction in the late 80s and long before the much heralded "first train into Dorrigo since 1972" reopening of the line in April 1986. Knowledgeable ex members also know the museum was wrecked years before any Supreme Court equity case regarding the members collection.

The Jones crap with the members started around 1981 shortly after initial work on the line restoration started and the museum was very lucky to get the line reopened at all and have that first train to Dorrigo, there would aslo be nothing parked in Dorrigo yard or abandoned along the line.

What they deeply regret was falling for the con 1973 when they were younger , enthuisiastic and easy to persuade in parting with their dollars and voluntary labour, they also regret not starting the court case in 1984 while all the locos and rollingstock were still at Glenreagh. Not everyone was brainwashed by the consistent bulls**t contained in museum newsletters over many years, there were some members involved that were thinkers.
tezza

Well that is one long lasting grudge. So, isn't it about time to get over it and move on and let the loyal members get on and do their thing? Constant griping and whining isn't going to change anything and just makes the sympathisers of the "Friends" look like sad and angry losers. Maybe they need to see a psychologist to help them come to terms with their issues?

There is plenty of stuff that happens in preservation that doesn't turn out well for some. No use dwelling on it and make the best and carry on.

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