Fare Pricing For Seniors at the Weekend

 
  usedtobered Locomotive Fireman

As a recently qualified Senior, and therefore, according to the rules as specified on the PTV website, I am entitled to free transport at the weekends when travelling within a zone or between two adjacent zones, does this mean I travel free in the following scenario:
I touch on with my MYKI, board a metro train in Zone 1 and travel free to Sunbury at the limit of Zone 2 where I touch off. I wait 5 minutes, touch on, then board a Vline train, go to Gisborne, then touch off. Is my trip for the entire journey free? Perhaps our good friend Revenue can answer this one if no one else can?

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  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
I would have thought "two adjacent zones" means exactly that.  You are introducing a third zone, and zone 3 is not adjacent to zone 1, so you should have to pay for your trip in zone 3.  But it's anyone's guess.......??
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I would have thought "two adjacent zones" means exactly that. You are introducing a third zone, and zone 3 is not adjacent to zone 1, so you should have to pay for your trip in zone 3. But it's anyone's guess.......??
Lad_Porter

If you clock off at Sunbury (zones 1 and 2) and then on again you are in one zone (3) only, perhaps but who knows. Otherwise use two separate MYKI cards.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

If you clock off at Sunbury (zones 1 and 2) and then on again you are in one zone (3) only, perhaps but who knows. Otherwise use two separate MYKI cards.
"YM-Mundrabilla"

Isn't it difficult to get two Seniors Mykis?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Isn't it difficult to get two Seniors Mykis?
duttonbay

Nope - I have three you just go and pay your $3 (?) each and away you go. I think that you must have at least 1 cent on them to travel free on weekends but as machines will not accept less than 10 cents so that becomes the defacto card minimum.

I got my anonymous spares as I didn't want big brother being able to follow me on the registered card. The registered original has since expired and been replaced with an unnamed card but I don't know if it is 'secretly' registered as a replacement for the original.

The illegal bit, as I understand it, is travelling on a concession card when not entitled to do so although that doesn't seem to stop half the bimbos (male and female) if you watch the barriers at Flinders Street.
  Piecost Station Staff

You cant buy a concession Myki from any of the machines. You can buy as many of them as you like when you go to the outlets as long as you have your seniors card with you they will sell them to you.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Why would you want to do this? The government is generously paying for a lot of free travel for you, so why push it further? That proposal is breaking the spirit of the government's gift of limited freebies to you, even if it's not technically illegal.

Retirees get half price travel, with a lot of it free on weekends. They've paid off their mortgages and any kids will be old enough to have left home. Plus they have tax rebates, concessions galore and if they invest their superannuation intelligently, a big fat annuity for life. Thus most over 60's I know are pretty well off.

So why get stingy and try and cheat (or at least bend the rules of) the system? It strikes me as a bit immoral.
  gxh Junior Train Controller

Location: SE suburbs
I was surprised by YM's statement (and Piecost's too, if I read it correctly) that you could buy additional seniors Mykis (from outlets) without going through the application process (as distinct from concession Mykis). But apparently this is indeed correct: http://ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/myki/myki-retail-outlets/
I wonder if outlets are always careful to check that the Seniors card they sight is in fact a Victorian card?
Perhaps AOs ought to ask to see a persons Seniors card as well as their Seniors myki when checking?  (In my limited experience, they don't usually make this request).
  usedtobered Locomotive Fireman

Hi to all again. So no real answer on this one- was hoping Revenue would see this and answer. Surely it would mean a slight (?) tweaking of MYKI software, but maybe the cost would not justify it. On the above query, when you apply for your Seniors card, you get a free MYKI concession card with it. By the way, I have previously got a Concession MYKI for my daughter at a 7-11 store and they didn't ask for proof of age - and she wasn't with me.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Don't get me wrong - I am grateful for the concessions that I receive and, personally, would not abuse them. It just intrigues me when governments and bureaucrats make rules that are either illogical or unenforceable.
Remember it is only mugs who obey the law in this state as those who don't often get away with it.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
As a recently qualified Senior, and therefore, according to the rules as specified on the PTV website, I am entitled...
usedtobered


Congratulations. I doubt we'll get that until we're too old to enjoy it. The "Age of Entitlement" being over and all Sad
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Why would you want to do this? The government is generously paying for a lot of free travel for you, so why push it further? That proposal is breaking the spirit of the government's gift of limited freebies to you, even if it's not technically illegal.

Retirees get half price travel, with a lot of it free on weekends. They've paid off their mortgages and any kids will be old enough to have left home. Plus they have tax rebates, concessions galore and if they invest their superannuation intelligently, a big fat annuity for life. Thus most over 60's I know are pretty well off.

So why get stingy and try and cheat (or at least bend the rules of) the system? It strikes me as a bit immoral.
Bogong

Not everyone who is entitled to a Seniors card, and therefore a Seniors myki, is a retiree or on a "big fat annuity". There are plenty of people 60 or over on a very limited income, perhaps just the pension. For them, the price of everything keeps going up, including the daily cap, but their income does not keep pace. Keep it in perspective; it's not necessarily about being stingy or trying to cheat.
  trestle_nutter Train Controller

Location: Yarra Valley
As a recently qualified Senior, and therefore, according to the rules as specified on the PTV website, I am entitled to free transport at the weekends when travelling within a zone or between two adjacent zones, does this mean I travel free in the following scenario:
I touch on with my MYKI, board a metro train in Zone 1 and travel free to Sunbury at the limit of Zone 2 where I touch off. I wait 5 minutes, touch on, then board a Vline train, go to Gisborne, then touch off. Is my trip for the entire journey free? Perhaps our good friend Revenue can answer this one if no one else can?
usedtobered

my feeling is that you might in fact get away with this.....while the human brain can think logically & recognise immediately that you started your journey at 'your station' & ended it at Gisborne, the Myki software cannot think logically nor would it necessarily refer to your earlier trip, so it might only see it as two separate & therefore free trips.

I am continually amazed at the level of paranoia that people have about Myki........PTV or whoever, is not the slightest bit interested in you personally......their only interest in you is as a statistic in relation to travel movements......their only interest would be that you were one of 10,352 passengers that travelled from 'your station' to the city between the hours of 10.00 am 2.00 pm on a Wednesday.......I do not see that as a scary factor in using a Myki......in the past they would have had staff on the platform counting passengers, now with Myki, they can do that electronically
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
... the Myki software cannot think logically nor would it necessarily refer to your earlier trip, so it might only see it as two separate & therefore free trips.
trestle_nutter

No, I think Myki keeps track of everywhere you have been that day. How else could it apply a daily cap, once that limit has been reached? Are you saying that if you made ten separate return trips to the city in one day (unlikely, but possible), touching on and off each time, it would charge you ten fares?

As for software not "thinking" logically, in fact the opposite is true. The software does exactly what it has been instructed to do (or not do) by the programmer. It could be that the programmer wasn't thinking logically when he wrote the code, or simply overlooked something or was not aware of something, but don't blame the software for programming or design errors.

You probably meant to say "the Myki system cannot think logically".  There is a difference.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Why would you want to do this? The government is generously paying for a lot of free travel for you, so why push it further? That proposal is breaking the spirit of the government's gift of limited freebies to you, even if it's not technically illegal.

Retirees get half price travel, with a lot of it free on weekends. They've paid off their mortgages and any kids will be old enough to have left home. Plus they have tax rebates, concessions galore and if they invest their superannuation intelligently, a big fat annuity for life. Thus most over 60's I know are pretty well off.

So why get stingy and try and cheat (or at least bend the rules of) the system? It strikes me as a bit immoral.
Bogong

Not everyone who is entitled to a Seniors card, and therefore a Seniors myki, is a retiree or on a "big fat annuity". There are plenty of people 60 or over on a very limited income, perhaps just the pension. For them, the price of everything keeps going up, including the daily cap, but their income does not keep pace. Keep it in perspective; it's not necessarily about being stingy or trying to cheat.
Lad_Porter

No worries Lad_Porter. I was just a little sceptical because most (not all) oldies are pretty flush. But yes there is a sizeable minority who did not work full time for 40 years and their superannuation annuities may not be enough to support them in comfort.

It was just a general observation and if the original poster is reduced to relying on welfare, then I apologise for any offence I caused. But if they are well off, I reckon that proposal is an abuse of the system
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
To answer usedtobered's initial question I believe that upon touch off at Gisborne the existing fare product will change from  "2-hour zone 1&2" to "2-hour zone 1,2&3" so a fare will be deducted.
The off-peak concession fare for travel in those three zones is $3.43 so I'd expect the charge at Gisborne to be $0.40 even if it was a single trip from Southern Cross.
  trestle_nutter Train Controller

Location: Yarra Valley
while the system does check for previous trips for the daily cap, I am not sure that it would check previous trips in relation to a seniors free weekend travel......what usedtobered has described I suspect would be legal by breaking the journey at the appropriate place......it would be an interesting exercise for someone to carry out to see what happens, although I would suggest allowing a bit more than 5 mins between the touch off time & the touch on for the next part of the journey (no point in touching on until the next train is pulling into the platform in case there is some coding in the system to check for a short period of time between previous touch off & next touch on)
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
No worries Lad_Porter. I was just a little sceptical because most (not all) oldies are pretty flush. But yes there is a sizeable minority who did not work full time for 40 years and their superannuation annuities may not be enough to support them in comfort.
Bogong

Most oldies as you put it are not flush, quite the opposite, and if you are in that category, then superannuation was optional for the majority of them unless they worked in a government job. And even after it became compulsory, many have not accumulated enough to even vaguely live off, so will end up on the pension. It has little to do with how long they worked and a lot to do with saving for retirement.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
I'd better correct my previous post.
The weekend cap only applies for trips entirely within zones 1&2 so there'd be a much larger charge for travel from Southern Cross.
As for travel from Sunbury to Gisbourne I think the fare would be $1.80 - $1.24 or 36 cents.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Free weekend travel for seniors, those on DSP such as myself, and those under 60 and receiving the Carers Allowance, are entitled to free weekend travel in ANY two (2) adjacent zones within the Myki zones, not just in zones 1 and 2.

And, as discussed in the Myki thread, if the journey is more than 2 zones, say Geelong to Southern Cross (zones 1-4), Myki seems to charge for the total zones travelled, not just the fare minus the 2 free zones.

Further Info: Myki-Free Weekend Travel
  nonscenic Locomotive Fireman

Location: Southern Cross by day
No, I think Myki keeps track of everywhere you have been that day.
Lad_Porter

Don't worry about Myki knowing your whereabouts if you are using it on trams and buses.
I regularly commute by bus from Doncaster to the city and when checking my transactions it will only show indications such as "906 Inbound City" or even places I haven't been such as "285 Camberwell"
I'm averaging one or two trips per week where my touch off or touch on is incorrectly shown in the wrong zone. As I travel across both zones the error is in my favour
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Don't worry about Myki knowing your whereabouts if you are using it on trams and buses.
I regularly commute by bus from Doncaster to the city and when checking my transactions it will only show indications such as "906 Inbound City" or even places I haven't been such as "285 Camberwell"
I'm averaging one or two trips per week where my touch off or touch on is incorrectly shown in the wrong zone. As I travel across both zones the error is in my favour
nonscenic

From what I understand, the errors are because of the driver incorrectly resetting or inputting (or completely forgetting to) the correct route or direction of travel into his/her Myki console at the end of the previous trip.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
All of which goes to support the case that Myki is a long way from being the system it was sold as.  It's no more "smart" than a delinquent goldfish (if that's not offensive to goldfish!) and relies too much upon every human doing everything right every place and time.

I can't answer the original question and I suspect the only way to find out how Myki deals with this is to travel and find out. Even the "experts" here have over the years been able to offer theoretical answers based upon what Myki might be intended to do but that doesn't always happen in reality.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
All of which indicates that if you can benefit from a flaw or design fault in the system, that's not cheating.  The designers have to bear the consequences of their bad design.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Absolutely.  Though do tell the AO teams that.  They're still a bit too keen to arrange lightening of your wallet via a report of offence with apparently zero tolerance towards not understanding the system or not being able to use to correctly for what ever reason.

If you do what the system requires and can benefit from it then that's one to you.  I've been doing that for the past few years though the trips in question ceased recently as the need to make them is no more.

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