Dennis's METRO tweaking of the Rabbit Burrows under Melbourne

 
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
ZH is really a closet busfan, so it's difficult for ZH to accept trains make faster, higher capacity PT which is unencumbered by road traffic flows. Moreover the suburbs don't end at Doncaster...

BTW it's Denis....NOT Dennis.



Mike.
The Whinelander

And we know you're a loon known for pushing trains to places where they aren't required.

Doncaster doesn't need faster, or higher capacity PT - the buses do fine.

What if such frequencies fed not just into the proposed rail link, but into other lines across the network? How high do you think the patronage would be?
railblogger

Higher, but harder to calculate using simple data.

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  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen

The change would be in the order of 500 journeys to work - insignificant. The buses are time competitive (with no change) and many already use Ringwood trains.

ZH836301

Not doubting your figures, but on what is your 500 based?  Is it how many currently use the buses?  Does it include those who go to work by car?  If a train service were available, how many extra people might use it?  And it would work both ways - people want to get TO Doncaster as well as away from it.

I worked in Doncaster for several years, near Shoppingtown, and went to work by public transport.  For a time I lived in Diamond Creek, so it was train to Heidelberg and then the 291 bus.  Then moved to Yarra Glen, so it was bus to Lilydale, train to Box Hill, then the 291 bus going the other way.  There was a bus, the 364, from Ringwood to Doncaster, but I didn't use it because it was quicker to stay on the train to Box Hill.  And that's because trains are faster than buses.

And that's what the people of Doncaster (and Rowville) are on about.  Sure, it's unrealistic, but you can't blame them for wanting.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

And we know you're a loon known for pushing trains to places where they aren't required.

Doncaster doesn't need faster, or higher capacity PT - the buses do fine.
ZH836301

I enjoy the inputs to this forum from both yourself and Vinelander, even though I think both of you are unrealistic in the infrastructure you want built in Victoria.

What I don't understand is how exactly you propose to solve the issue of traffic on Hoddle Street, Alexander Parade and the Eastern Freeway. You don't support the East-West, you don't support Doncaster rail. You support building metro tunnels across the city to increase line capacity but only for existing lines.

Do you think it is possible to address the congestion on the Eastern Freeway simply by increasing the frequency of trains on the Ringwood and Clifton Hill lines and increasing the capacity/frequency of buses to Doncaster?
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Easy, put in all the extra signals to increase the frequency, as a result slow the trains to a crawl, say 5-10kph, take the sides off the trains and call them travelators....
OR
No, nothing else anywhere as near as sensible as the above.

PS. Eddingtons tunnel idea was from Caulfield, not South Yarra.
Bullucked

Isn't having very, very close signals basically an approximation for moving block anyway? If you had 3 position speed signaling with a dynamic speed indicator on the signal posts for medium speed (40/55/70 kph for example) I would have thought this would be close to what moving block basically achieves?

IF moving block was possible in Melbourne hypothetically (no level crossings and no mixed traffic on metro lines) would all of this metro tunnel discussion be irrelevant?
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
A very simple and relatively quick solution for Doncaster is to introduce more articulated buses (Transdev only has two), and full time bus lanes on Hoddle St and Victoria Pde. Outbound currently has nothing at all. 25 minutes from the city to the entrance of the freeway on a bus is ridiculous.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Not doubting your figures, but on what is your 500 based? Is it how many currently use the buses? Does it include those who go to work by car? If a train service were available, how many extra people might use it? And it would work both ways - people want to get TO Doncaster as well as away from it.
Lad_porter

It's based on Census Journey to Work data compared with Whitehorse and particularly Banyule.]

It can be considered the likely maximum reduction in traffic on the Eastern freeway at peak - from the News thread:

Doing a quick back of the envelope calculation based on Journey to Work data, the maximum shift to PT in Manningham to bring it in line with Whitehorse would be 5%, or 2600 (or 2400 cars based on 1.07 occupancy). Of course the actual change is likely to be less. I'd rather compare with Banyule, since the density is more similar. This would drop the maximum shift down to 2%, about 1100 (or 1000 cars).

Given performance is unlikely to match Banyule, I'd put the switch at 1%, or about 500 people/cars - there's a reason it's called the Dumbcaster Line.


What I don't understand is how exactly you propose to solve the issue of traffic on Hoddle Street, Alexander Parade and the Eastern Freeway. You don't support the East-West, you don't support Doncaster rail. You support building metro tunnels across the city to increase line capacity but only for existing lines.
Mr Lane

You can't, it's basic induced demand.

You make driving easier, more people will drive.

Do you think it is possible to address the congestion on the Eastern Freeway simply by increasing the frequency of trains on the Ringwood and Clifton Hill lines and increasing the capacity/frequency of buses to Doncaster?
Mr Lane

Within reason, yes.
  Plan B Junior Train Controller

As Alstom_888m says - the Doncaster bus problems are (mostly) between the city and the end of the freeway.

So you build an integrated bus interchange at Victoria Park station - with possible shops on a separate level to help fund the structure. Then you boost South Morang & Eltham train services and also add a Clifton Hill to city loop shuttle when trains are really busy.

That may require a few track works Clifton Hill-Vic Park and an overpass to take buses to and from the bus station over the freeway inbound lanes to dedicated bus lanes that run the length of the freeway centre lanes.

A feeder bus service to and from the city will cater for those who want to catch a bus in Victoria Parade
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
And we know you're a loon known for pushing trains to places where they aren't required.

Doncaster doesn't need faster, or higher capacity PT - the buses do fine....
ZH836301

In your opinion...
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
As Alstom_888m says - the Doncaster bus problems are (mostly) between the city and the end of the freeway.

So you build an integrated bus interchange at Victoria Park station - with possible shops on a separate level to help fund the structure. Then you boost South Morang & Eltham train services and also add a Clifton Hill to city loop shuttle when trains are really busy.

That may require a few track works Clifton Hill-Vic Park and an overpass to take buses to and from the bus station over the freeway inbound lanes to dedicated bus lanes that run the length of the freeway centre lanes.

A feeder bus service to and from the city will cater for those who want to catch a bus in Victoria Parade
Plan B

That would probably cost a hundred million or so, or you could just do what I said which would only cost a couple of hundred square meters of red paint.

The expense of the articulated buses is almost negligible as there's 30-something O405's on the DART that are life-expired anyway.
  usedtobered Locomotive Fireman

While we are off topic, has the possibility of concreting around the tram tracks in Victoria Pde and running the busses on this new pavement been raised? This would speed up the bus service with co-ordinated traffic signalling (at least till you get to the tram interchange near the Eye and Ear Hospital-maybe I have answered my own question!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
In your opinion...
The Vinelander

In the place known by the rest of us as reality.  So why does Doncaster need faster, higher capacity PT?  

The buses are only slightly slower than the equivalent train due to incomplete bus lanes, though the capacity is fine.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
Back on topic slightly, does anyone know why people would want to go from the airport to the newly rerouted Metro tunnel destination (and excellent transport interchange) of Fishermans Bend? Or am I the only one who sees the sudden reappearance of the airport line just a massive straw clutching exercise by a government desperate to be seen to be doing something about public transport? Though to be honest, the airport line going to Southern Crustacean is a far more sensible idea than routing it through the original Metro tunnel...

And actually just on that point, there is no reason you couldn't electrify RRL to Sunshine and run an express airport link into SCS along the RRL. Far more useful than PTVs stopping all stations to Dandenong plan, and exposes the 'we need the Metro tunnel first' idea for the fallacy it is...
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
And actually just on that point, there is no reason you couldn't electrify RRL to Sunshine and run an express airport link into SCS along the RRL. Far more useful than PTVs stopping all stations to Dandenong plan, and exposes the 'we need the Metro tunnel first' idea for the fallacy it is...
HardSleeper

Though on second thoughts, a stopping all stations service which doesn't go to the major transport interchange in the CBD would make it more likely for people to continue taking taxis or private cars on Citylink and paying for airport parking even with a rail link, thus potentially gaining votes while keeping all the vested interests (read Liberal Party donors) happy. I stand corrected...
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
I like the way you think.

I cannot imagine people wth their suitcases trying to get down escalators to catch the airport train though I imagine this does happen.

Business travellers would be significant users of such a service.

Perhaps Napthine already knows the election will again be about public transport and he has not delivered a single rail project.

I suspect they are already in a state of panic.

Rerouting the metro rail link does not make sense. It will be 20 years before there is a critical mass at that location.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
And actually just on that point, there is no reason you couldn't electrify RRL to Sunshine and run an express airport link into SCS along the RRL. Far more useful than PTVs stopping all stations to Dandenong plan, and exposes the 'we need the Metro tunnel first' idea for the fallacy it is...
HardSleeper

Not only that but there's probably an opportunity to package it up nicely for private enterprise - mostly public tracks to SCS and only a few km from the Broadmeadows-Albion line with a short (mostly cut and cover) line to the terminals.  A PPP could do it easily as in interstate and overseas; think Gatwick Express, Brisbane Air Train. I don't know why they haven't at least done a scoping study on how it could operate - I'm sure it would be a more attractive proposition than East-West.

And yeah I don't understand the dependence on the construction of the metro line at all, I think that's just a diversion like this stupid Swanston Street rubbish.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Correct, the airport line should be running express on RRL tracks, not stopping at silly places like Tottenham.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

I don't think Napthine is serious about either project, this is just about a good headline, but also to make the airport link not viable until the tunnel is built.

With respect to the Airport, running it Airport-Sunshine-Footscray-Southern Cross on the Regional Rail Link is the way to go. It could be initially run by V/Line DMUs which negates the need to electrify the RRL. The RRL should be kept free from electrification until the time arrives that regional electrification makes sense (so not anytime soon) and can be done at 25kV AC completely separate from the Metro network.

On a side note I believe the latest draft plan for the East Coast Very Fast Train (not that it means much...) goes from Seymour to Melbourne Airport and then through to Southern Cross. That will be 25kV AC...but also Standard Guage.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I don't think Napthine is serious about either project, this is just about a good headline, but also to make the airport link not viable until the tunnel is built.

With respect to the Airport, running it Airport-Sunshine-Footscray-Southern Cross on the Regional Rail Link is the way to go. It could be initially run by V/Line DMUs which negates the need to electrify the RRL. The RRL should be kept free from electrification until the time arrives that regional electrification makes sense (so not anytime soon) and can be done at 25kV AC completely separate from the Metro network.

On a side note I believe the latest draft plan for the East Coast Very Fast Train (not that it means much...) goes from Seymour to Melbourne Airport and then through to Southern Cross. That will be 25kV AC...but also Standard Guage.
Mr. Lane


I have been advised the Airport rail link cannot go ahead until the Metro Tunnel is built yes and the government and the previous government have known about this. This is why labour sought funding from the feds and got the commitment for the tunnel.

The rail link to the airport needs to be electrified since there will be cross city services running to the airport which is what I believe they are planning with the tunnel. Mr Lane raises a great point about ensuring the RRL lines can be later electrified to AC.

I think a rail tunnel through Highpoint and to the airport via Jacana may have been a better option?

There appears to be and has been for a long time a wave of resistance to making large strategic steps for projects which will have a major benefit to this state.  I just can't work out why. Victoria now has the 3rd highest unemployment rate in the country.  I see this trend continuing north until Napthine comes up with another road project to show everyone he is concerned.

The jobs he creates are almost always based in Melbourne.  Upgrading railway lines across Victoria and standardization of the entire rail network across this state would be money well spent!



Regards
Brian
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The jobs he creates are almost always based in Melbourne. Upgrading railway lines across Victoria and standardization of the entire rail network across this state would be money well spent!
bevans

Perhaps upgrading buses would contribute to that as well?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Perhaps upgrading buses would contribute to that as well?
railblogger


I am not sure of the performance of the bus network. Are there gaps which need to be filled?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I am not sure of the performance of the bus network. Are there gaps which need to be filled?
bevans

I'm not sure, but I think that an increased frequency would create jobs in fleet maintenance and operations.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I have been advised the Airport rail link cannot go ahead until the Metro Tunnel is built yes and the government and the previous government have known about this...
bevans

Is there an actual technical reason why it couldn't be done prior to Eddingtunnel or is it a case of just wanting them to interlace?

I understand the need for linking services from the other side of town but surely a simple express service from SCS to the airport wouldn't be too hard, would it? Easy to package as a PPP - I can't see why it all needs to be done at once.  Strikes me as another delaying tactic.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I cannot imagine people wth their suitcases trying to get down escalators to catch the airport train though I imagine this does happen.
"freightgate"

Happens all over the world. Even in Sydney.

Business travellers would be significant users of such a service.

Perhaps business travellers flying into Melbourne. But as a resident of Melbourne I would always drive or taxi to the airport, because I would be most of the way there before my 5am train from Mitcham arrived in the city.  I rarely used the train in Sydney when travelling on business for the same reason - my business was rarely in the city, and taxi was quicker.

However, now having retired, I use Skybus to and from Tulla whenever it's feasible, and the train from Sydney airport. There is much less time pressure when leisure travelling than when in business.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
Is there an actual technical reason why it couldn't be done prior to Eddingtunnel or is it a case of just wanting them to interlace?

I understand the need for linking services from the other side of town but surely a simple express service from SCS to the airport wouldn't be too hard, would it? Easy to package as a PPP - I can't see why it all needs to be done at once. Strikes me as another delaying tactic.
don_dunstan

And far better for anyone who doesn't live on the Dandenong line and wants to change at SCS. Once RRL is open, there is absolutely no excuse not to build this.

An express with dedicated rollingstock I'd be perfectly happy to pay a premium for and would actually be useful. Having to drag suitcases onto a stopping all stations Comeng which would be full by Footscray and changing at Melbourne Central is a half-baked solution which would be completely typical of this state and country.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
And far better for anyone who doesn't live on the Dandenong line and wants to change at SCS. Once RRL is open, there is absolutely no excuse not to build this.

An express with dedicated rollingstock I'd be perfectly happy to pay a premium for and would actually be useful. Having to drag suitcases onto a stopping all stations Comeng which would be full by Footscray and changing at Melbourne Central is a half-baked solution which would be completely typical of this state and country.
HardSleeper

Exactly - I'd pay $18 or whatever the Skybus fare is for a one way ticket for something more reliable... Skybus has a bad habit of getting caught in traffic. Use RRL SCS to Sunshine and then get off somewhere along the Albion-Broady line - even if they had to build a dedicated line from Albion because of gauge/capacity issues it would probably still be economical to construct with a premium fare. Even the airport themselves have changed their tune on it recently because they realise future growth will be dependent on a mix of transport options.

SCS was supposedly designed as the primary transport interchange for Melbourne, all the trains pass through there, country and suburban; it doesn't make sense that they'd want to take the terminus for the airport train elsewhere.  You could always use it as a temporary terminus until Eddingtunnel is built but even then I think passenger preference would see the terminus remain at SCS anyway.

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