Smoke Free for rest of Melbourne Stations

 
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

You think banning something different (smoking in open areas) will make someone doing something illegal (smoking under no smoking sign) stop?

What an odd conclusion. What's your alcohol consumption like?


I fail to see how someone smoking at the end of the platform (or as Heihachi even says, the carpark) affects your latte.
ZH836301

It's not about the ban, but about his statement to simply keep away from smokers. My point is that you can't, whatever bans are put in place, and why non-smokers get upset.

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  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
I suspect smokers are a bit like push bike riders (another highly dangerous activity).

90% of cyclists obey the laws, they indicate when turning, obey red lights and don't endanger pedestrians by illegally riding on footpaths. But we mostly notice the 10% of cyclists who wilfully break the law, thus the fairly common view that cyclists are self-centred ar5e holes. Likewise 90% of smokers are considerate and practice their habit well away from other people. But just like cyclists, there is that inconsiderate small minority who get all of them a bad rap in the view of the broader public.

Both groups have an undeserved bad reputation caused by the behaviour of a small minority of their members.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
It's not about the ban, but about his statement to simply keep away from smokers. My point is that you can't, whatever bans are put in place, and why non-smokers get upset.
Madjikthise

Aww diddums.

This ban actually makes it more likely that people will smoke in areas that will annoy you (if PSOs aren't waiting to pounce).

90% of cyclists obey the laws, they indicate when turning, obey red lights and don't endanger pedestrians by illegally riding on footpaths. But we mostly notice the 10% of cyclists who wilfully break the law, thus the fairly common view that cyclists are self-centred ar5e holes. Likewise 90% of smokers are considerate and practice their habit well away from other people. But just like cyclists, there is that inconsiderate small minority who get all of them a bad rap in the view of the broader public.
Bogong

In a nutshell.

That 10% who don't care and will smoke anyway are more likely to annoy Madjikthise and friends now, since there's no incentive for them to smoke away from people.

Most smokers would be happy with a box at the end of the platform that would offend no one, but now in the name of 'progression' we end up with a 'solution' that will probably lead to worse outcomes (more people smoking undercover). Hell, the ones who really don't care will probably smoke on late night/early trains instead given the fine is the same and there's less chance of being caught. Also waiting for the first media response to someone getting a fine whilst walking to their car.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Aww diddums.

This ban actually makes it more likely that people will smoke in areas that will annoy you (if PSOs aren't waiting to pounce).
ZH836301

Nope, I don't think it will change anything.
  waynes Junior Train Controller

Location: Victoria
If people really need a fag then they will light up.  People really don't care about authority these days.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Not sure why I am entering the debate, as I can't be bothered arguing with some people anymore, but all this new ban will do is move smokers away from the end of the platform where the roof ends (and away from everyone else) to the station entrance on the street.
I had no trouble finding somewhere to smoke out in the open and away from others, now I will be joining every other smoker having one final puff before catching the train. Oh well.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Nope, I don't think it will change anything.
Madjikthise

You don't think people who didn't care who lit up in the open will now do it undercover since there's equal risk?
  ChoooChoo Chief Train Controller

I fail to see how someone smoking at the end of the platform (or as Heihachi even says, the carpark) affects your latte.
ZH836301


Take it from me, the undercover area is on the left of the station, and is where the entrance is.

I wanted to walk up the platform to the right where there's more room (thus less likely to be on a crowded carriage)

I had to go past 2 people smoking in the open, uncovered area whilst having the flu.

For a few seconds it felt I had lost all air, and then the subsequent coughing fit which lasted a few minutes didn't help either.

Yeah, pollution is a broader issue then just station platforms.

But we're not in China, air pollution is not as severe in Melbourne as you don't see smoke stack chimmneys blowing carbon monoxide out everywhere you go. We barely have any dirty industries and factories, we're more manufacturing. The coal generators are far, far away from the urban dwellers in suburban Melbourne.

The vast majority of people who don't smoke shouldn't have to breathe in smokers air just for trying to move down the platform.

I don't care how 'nanny state' it comes across for you. It's a right (to smoke in certain areas) I and most others couldn't give a crap about losing.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
It will give the AO's something else to do, although educating the public to these law changes will take time. At Dandenong the other day the smokers were giving their cigarettes the usual going over. Maybe they need to publicise this a bit better.

Slightly off topic, but on the subject of enforcement, at Frankston station the other day AO's, Police & Sheriff officers were all manning the ticket barriers or prowling nearby. Has anyone else seen this kind of combined operation before at stations? It seems a bit of overkill - the Frankston internal PSO box was being given a good workout at 3.45pm in the afternoon.
  ChoooChoo Chief Train Controller

At Dandenong the other day the smokers were giving their cigarettes the usual going over. Maybe they need to publicise this a bit better.

jdekorte


If the government wasn't so stupid, they would have rolled out simple $5 signs with the "no smoking" logo at every train station before rolling out this law which was talked about and promised early last year.

Because yes, it's unfair to expect a habit which has been allowed to happen for decades, to all of a sudden become illegal without the proper signage at every train station.

It's not hard. Planned train disruptions on a line see posters erected at every station with success.

Same could happen with the signs.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I had to go past 2 people smoking in the open, uncovered area whilst having the flu.
ChooChoo

Ignoring the drama, what's the difference to walking down the street?

And if we add any weight to your comment, how does this make designating smoking areas impossible?
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I would think it would be better to have a designated area out in the open at the end of the platform for smokers rather than creating a totally smoke free environment and having smokers congregating on the street in front of the station entrance for all and sundry to walk past.
  Peter Spyker Train Controller

I'm sure banning smoking in all areas will stop people like that.
ZH836301

In the same way that banning smoking in pubs didn't stop it there?

You're full of crap. The majority of smokers will adhere to the new laws. A few, the typical people who think they're above the law - who, generally, are the ones stupid enough to think that smoking isn't also killing them - will continue, and they will cop it if PSOs spot them.

In the long term, people will learn that smoking is off limits in such places, and it will stop, as the idiots die off.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
In the long term, people will learn that smoking is off limits in such places, and it will stop, as the idiots die off.
Peter Spyker

I love how this thread has bought out so much compassion and sympathy for our fellow human beings! Nicotine is a powerful alkaline like morphine and is highly addictive; we should have sympathy for people who are addicted - not celebrate their deaths.

Anyway, I can confidently predict that you'll never get rid of smoking, not even if you completely ban it. It'll just go underground. Organised crime will be rubbing their hands together with glee at the prospect of a new substance to traffic - they're already involved with chop-chop but a complete ban will see rivers of gold flowing into their pockets, I'm sure.

I noticed when I was walking down Chapel Street the other day that the people who are smoking the most are young people in their twenties. It's precisely because it's rebellious and naughty that the kiddies are drawn to it - smoking has been perceived like that for decades. Society does not approve. That's exactly why it will never die out.

All these moves to ban smoking in public remind me of the Temperance movement in the late 19th century telling us what a better society we'd be if we banned alcohol.
  ChoooChoo Chief Train Controller

Ignoring the drama, what's the difference to walking down the street?
ZH836301

Who said it is any difference? I experience the same whilst walking down the street.

Which is precisely why over time more and more public spaces (aka walking down the street) are being made smoke free areas. Especially areas around public institutions like libraries and schools.

At a train station, you often have to wait for a long period of time, often in a confined area (especially during peak hour which is when the majority of people are at a train station).

If you begin to ban smoking at a prime location whilst doing an everyday chore like waiting for a train, you are going one step in the right direction.

At least whilst walking, you can just walk past on towards your destination. You don't always have the liberty of doing that at a  train station because of it's restricted space. Nor should you have to move away.

There's already been talk about banning smoking in outdoor dining areas which are on public land (the street).
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Smokers are obnoxiously smelly, particularly when they are wet and they board a train and they have little regard for throwing their butts and other smoking detritus wherever they see fit.

This morning I picked up an empty cigarette packet in the station car park which I deposited in a bin on the platform. a year or so back I had a smoking pole installed on the platform and some people dispose of their butts in there. Many do not.

To help save smokers from themselves and the dead weight they become on the public health purse due to their addiction, governments have to introduce laws to restrict their smoking freedom. IE the majority rules.

The ongoing and ever decreasing rate of smoking these days is proof that the governments deterrences are working.

Mike.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Really Mike?

In the same way that banning smoking in pubs didn't stop it there?
Peter Spyker

Dumb.  Totally different since readily observable, and the hotelier would face massive fines for allowing it.  That and designated areas were usually provided.  

Where there aren't PSOs, a pretty sign is going to stop anyone (if the government actually bothers to put some up and doesn't just nab clueless occasional users and tourists).

You're full of crap. The majority of smokers will adhere to the new laws. A few, the typical people who think they're above the law - who, generally, are the ones stupid enough to think that smoking isn't also killing them - will continue, and they will cop it if PSOs spot them.
Peter Spyker

So, they won't, given PSOs are absent at most times.  Ie. Close to no risk in smoking most times of the day.

In the long term, people will learn that smoking is off limits in such places, and it will stop, as the idiots die off.
Peter Spyker

Calm down, maybe a cigarette will help.

Who said it is any difference? I experience the same whilst walking down the street.
ChooChoo

So why do you give a sh1te?

There's already been talk about banning smoking in outdoor dining areas which are on public land (the street).
ChooChoo

Such bullsh1te should be up to the restaurateur.

Smokers are obnoxiously smelly, particularly when they are wet and they board a train and they have little regard for throwing their butts and other smoking detritus wherever they see fit.
The Mikelander

Here we go.

This morning I picked up an empty cigarette packet in the station car park which I deposited in a bin on the platform. a year or so back I had a smoking pole installed on the platform and some people dispose of their butts in there. Many do not.
The Mikelander

I picked up a chip packet, maybe we should be eating at stations.

To help save smokers from themselves and the dead weight they become on the public health purse due to their addiction, governments have to introduce laws to restrict their smoking freedom. IE the majority rules.
The Mikelander

Ignoring the other junk, are you saying the ban on gay marriage is OK, majority rules. Glass. Houses.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Really Mike?


Here we go.


I picked up a chip packet, maybe we should be eating at stations.


Ignoring the other junk, are you saying the ban on gay marriage is OK, majority rules. Glass. Houses.

ZH836301

I'll bet you didn't Exclamation

If you're still in Sunbury...nobody gives a toss about your or anybody else's litter...

BTW, not that your red herring has anything at all to do with smoking at railway stations...the majority are in favour...
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Smokers are obnoxiously smelly, particularly when they are wet and they board a train and they have little regard for throwing their butts and other smoking detritus wherever they see fit.

This morning I picked up an empty cigarette packet in the station car park which I deposited in a bin on the platform. a year or so back I had a smoking pole installed on the platform and some people dispose of their butts in there. Many do not.

To help save smokers from themselves and the dead weight they become on the public health purse due to their addiction, governments have to introduce laws to restrict their smoking freedom. IE the majority rules.

The ongoing and ever decreasing rate of smoking these days is proof that the governments deterrences are working.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Smokers are hardly a dead weight to the public health system considering the amount of tax they pay on each packet of cigarettes. And personally, I had private health insurance for as long as I worked, purely for the fact that I smoked, and I felt I was taking care of myself should I need a hospital bed due to the effects of smoking.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Smokers are hardly a dead weight to the public health system considering the amount of tax they pay on each packet of cigarettes.
xxxxlbear

I hear what you say, but just think how much better use could be made of the tax you pay on cigarettes. Instead of using it to treat people with self inflicted wounds, we could spend more on transplants, nurses, beds, research etc.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
True, Valvegear. Our health system desperately needs beds, staff, etc, for things like:
*Elective surgery. Desperately needs more ward beds, nurses, and operating theatres and staff.
*Emergency Departments. Under-resourced, under-staffed
*The Ambulance system: needs more ambulances and ambulance officers.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Smokers are hardly a dead weight to the public health system considering the amount of tax they pay on each packet of cigarettes. And personally, I had private health insurance for as long as I worked, purely for the fact that I smoked, and I felt I was taking care of myself should I need a hospital bed due to the effects of smoking.
xxxxlbear

You may well be the exception to the rule XXXX by taking out private health insurance against the deleterious effects of your habit when you smoked, however you would be in the minority as smokers tend to be at the lower end of the socio-economic scale and generally are not privately insured.

Taxation revenue paid by smokers over the years comes nowhere near the care that's required to pay for their health when they contract diseases like cancer or emphysema.

http://www.acosh.org/resources/tobaccotax.pdf

Mike.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I'll bet you didn't http://www.railpage.com.au/images/smiles/icon_exclaim.gif

If you're still in Sunbury...nobody gives a toss about your or anybody else's litter...

BTW, not that your red herring has anything at all to do with smoking at railway stations...the majority are in favour...
The Mikelander

Yeah you got me, I didn't pick it up, I don't give a smeg - I however don't use food litter as an excuse to ban eating as you do for smoking.

Majority is irrelevant. Are you saying banning homosexuality was right because the majority approved?

You may well be the exception to the rule XXXX by taking out private health insurance against the deleterious effects of your habit when you smoked, however you would be in the minority as smokers tend to be at the lower end of the socio-economic scale and generally are not privately insured.

Taxation revenue paid by smokers over the years comes nowhere near the care that's required to pay for their health when they contract diseases like cancer or emphysema.

http://www.acosh.org/resources/tobaccotax.pdf
The Mikelander

That's some great bullsh1t, a link that has nothing to do with smoker costs from a loaded source.

In reality the tax collected (Australian cigarettes are 5-20x more expensive than overseas) and reduced life expectency (10 years longer on the pension isn't cheap, after which you'll probably get cancer anyway) covers the cost.

Stop hiding behind the smokescreen. You just hate smokers.

I hear what you say, but just think how much better use could be made of the tax you pay on cigarettes. Instead of using it to treat people with self inflicted wounds, we could spend more on transplants, nurses, beds, research etc.
Valvegear

Ah, what? If nobody smoked you wouldn't have the tax revenue from cigarettes.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Ah, what? If nobody smoked you wouldn't have the tax revenue from cigarettes.
ZH836301

Omigawd - how profound can you get. Next you'll discover that if your uncle was built differently he'd be your auntie.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Then what are you trying to say?

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