Question about break of journey for MyTrain periodical tickets

 
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

Hi guys

My friend asked me a question recently about breaking journey (exiting paid areas of stations) on MyTrain periodical tickets. Unfortunately, I consulted the Fares and Ticketing Handbook and could not find the answer.

If someone lives on the outer regions of the four City Circle lines (Inner West/South/Airport & East Hills/Bankstown) and they buy a monthly ticket to the City, can they get off on other sections that are not their most direct route to the city?

Scenario

For example, consider someone who buys a ticket between station X and the City, where station X is the following:


  1. Cabramatta

  2. Liverpool

  3. Glenfield

  4. Macarthur



For the first two stations, the "normal" route to the City will be South Line via Granville, but alternatives exist such as via Regents Park or via Bankstown. Undoubtedly some also travel down to Glenfield to travel via the East Hills Line

For the third station, the "normal" route to the City will be via the East Hills Line, but the paths available to the first two stations are also available here.

The Question

For stations 1, 2, 3 and 4 above, will buying a periodical ticket between that station and the City allow the passenger to legally exit the network at these stations? I have picked these stations as they are on each separate "branch"

(a) Granville
(b) Strathfield
(c) Chester Hill
(d) Regents Park
(e) Bankstown
(f) Revesby

Passenger Fares and Ticketing Handbook

http://www.transportnsw.info/resources/documents/TfNSW-ticketing-customer-handbook.pdf

I have consulted the handbook and I haven't been able to make enough sense of it to answer the question.

Annexure A

In Annexure A, Clause 1.2(b), there is talk of approved routes of travel.

For example, it states that any ticket covering through journey between Glenfield and Redfern has via East Hills and St Peters as shortest route, but many other routes are available, and "travel may be made by either route but Break of Journey for MyTrain periodical Ticket holders is only permitted on the shortest route."

To me, that means that in number 3 above (Glenfield), the passenger can only exit at (f), Revesby, with their periodical.

However, Clause 1.2(b) confusingly states it shoudl be read in conjunction with Clause 1.3. Clause 1.3 refers to "Approved Circular Routes"

Glenfield Circle

Travel between Glenfield and the City (and Cabramatta/Liverpool to the City) both appear to be on the 68.82 km Glenfield Circle.

It states that break of journey between two stations on the same circular route for the periodical ticket is permitted on:

(a) Shortest route - shortest distance between both stations (this means once again, (f), Revesby is appropriate for the Glenfield to City periodical)

(b) Other route - only if the distance via the shortest route (route paid for) is more than 45% (30.97km) of the total circular route distance.

Now Glenfield to the City is more than 30.97km, so this to me seems to mean that stations on the "other route" of the Glenfield circle, such as Granville (a), and Strathfield (b), can be legally exited and boarded from using the ticket.

Bankstown Circle

As I mentioned earlier, people from Glenfield can also travel to the City via Bankstown or via Regents Park/Strathfield (with several changes of trains).

Even though this is by no means the shortest or the fastest routes, they are possible routes, so again I consulted the "Approved Circular Routes" to see if there's anything that would allow the passenger to exit at Chester Hill, Regents Park, or Bankstown.

The Bankstown Circle is 40.84 km and Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool are not on the circle. However, it notes that break of journey between a station on the circular route (the city in this case) and a station not on the circular route (Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool) in this case is permitted on the shortest route (which won't help in this case as the shortest route won't include Bankstown).

However, it is also allowed on the "other route" if the distance from the CRE station (the first station on the circular route that you enter) to the station on the circular route (destination or origin) is more than 37% (15.11 km) for the total circular route distance.

Now, if you travel between Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool to the City via Bankstown, your CRE is presumably Birrong. This is 24.56 km from the City, which exceeds the threshold requirement.

To me, this means that a ticket from Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool would allow a break of journey at Bankstown and at Regents Park (both being on the Bankstown Circle). However, I'm not entirely sure about Chester Hill, not being the shortest route for Glenfield and not being on the Bankstown Circle either.

Conclusion

As you can see, I'm pretty confused analysing the fares handbook. It doesn't seem to be constructed very well.

There's also a supplementary issue I have with the circles.

According to the Glenfield Circle bit, so long as the distance between my origin station on the Glenfield Circle and the city exceeds 30.97 km, I can have a break of journey on the "other route".

So read strictly, doesn't this mean that if I buy a Warwick Farm to City periodical ticket (a distance of 35.3 km), because this exceeds 30.97 km, you can travel anywhere on the Glenfield Circle loop and break your journey? And because of that, someone can also exit at Glenfield?

If this is true, people at Glenfield can save a lot of money travelling to the City as their fare band is higher than that of Warwick Farm, and with a Warwick Farm to City periodical ticket, they can still get off and start a journey at Glenfield legally.

I'm not sure if this reading is correct - as I noted, the fares handbook is pretty confusing.

Sponsored advertisement

  viaprojects Chief Train Controller

pick the ticket you need http://www.sydneytrains.info/tickets/which/

MyMulti1, 2 or 3 are the ones for any location trips.

weekly tickets etc are for any station on a direct route (printed on the ticket).


it's up to how you purchase the ticket. if you have city on the ticket you can use any city station. but if you have single city station printed on the ticket you can only use that station.
  AndyV Station Master

In don't think that's quite right. On weekly and above you can get on or off at any station that's between the two stations printed on the ticket, and you can do it as much as you want during that week (or fortnight, month, quarter, year, depending on your ticket type).

I do it all the time and it works, even if it's not published that you can.
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

Yes, AndyV, you are correct.

My question is indeed in relation to getting on/off on stations between the two stations printed on the ticket. As I mentioned in my original post, what is counted as "between" the two stations is very complex given the multiple pathways possible on the Sydney Trains network.

Hence my original question:

For stations 1 (Cabramatta), 2 (Liverpool), 3 (Glenfield) and 4 (Macarthur), will buying a periodical ticket between that station and the City allow the passenger to legally exit the network at these stations? I have picked these stations as they are on each separate "branch"

(a) Granville
(b) Strathfield
(c) Chester Hill
(d) Regents Park
(e) Bankstown
(f) Revesby
  matthewg Train Controller


Conclusion

As you can see, I'm pretty confused analysing the fares handbook. It doesn't seem to be constructed very well.

There's also a supplementary issue I have with the circles.

According to the Glenfield Circle bit, so long as the distance between my origin station on the Glenfield Circle and the city exceeds 30.97 km, I can have a break of journey on the "other route".
clrks

I read those circle clauses as the 'paid distance you travel on the circle', and not your total paid distance.
I have a friend who gets on at Wentworthville and off at St Leonards and often has to go to Macquarie Park for work.
So he's interested in the 'Lower Macquarie Circle'. Turns out the 'paid' distance on the Lower Macquarie Circle' is 20km. He enters the circle at Strathfield and leaves at St Leonards. That's 21.32km. More than 20km , so break of Journey is allow on either route. However if his work was at Waverton (19.04km) or North Sydney (18.04km) , going to Macquarie Park is no longer allowed.

At least that's the way I read it.

It's not the clearest of documents.
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
I read those circle clauses as the 'paid distance you travel on the circle', and not your total paid distance.
I have a friend who gets on at Wentworthville and off at St Leonards and often has to go to Macquarie Park for work.
So he's interested in the 'Lower Macquarie Circle'. Turns out the 'paid' distance on the Lower Macquarie Circle' is 20km. He enters the circle at Strathfield and leaves at St Leonards. That's 21.32km. More than 20km , so break of Journey is allow on either route. However if his work was at Waverton (19.04km) or North Sydney (18.04km) , going to Macquarie Park is no longer allowed.

At least that's the way I read it.

It's not the clearest of documents.
matthewg

Wentworthville to Mac Park, you can travel either route but break of journey will be on via Strathfield/Epping only, AFAIK Wentworthville - Chatswood would allow either way with break of journey.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Why don't you just use Opal?  That way you don't have to think about it.  Although you still have to think about if a MyMulti is more suitable for you if you also use bus services.
  Oldfart Chief Commissioner

Location: Right base for BK 11R
Before Opal I occasionally used a MyMulti 2 from Warwick Farm to Olympic park. I asked Cityrail (sic) if that ticket would allow a trip via Glenfield to Holsworthy as it certainly would allow Warwick Farm to Holsworthy via the city or Sydenham, or to catch a train to Liverpool and a bus to Holsworthy. The answer was that i would be traveling illegally if I used a MyMulti2 on a train via Glenfield.

Actually my question to them was more in terms of 'That's seems strange, perhaps you should allow it in the Fares Handbook or make Glenfield the boundary for MyMulti2' (the zones are based on historical locations that long preceded the east Hills to Glenfield link). No reply was forthcoming (surprise, surprise!).
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
Not so sure the Multi boundaries are based on anything historical, more just a rough banding of distance from Central
  jpd Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
Hi guys

My friend asked me a question recently about breaking journey (exiting paid areas of stations) on MyTrain periodical tickets. Unfortunately, I consulted the Fares and Ticketing Handbook and could not find the answer.
clrks


I guess I'm used to reading these sort of documents, but there's a fair bit that nothing is said about, so it's very unclear. In particular, some of these options aren't dealt with explicitly at all, especially if your ticket is to the City rather than Redfern.



Passenger Fares and Ticketing Handbook

http://www.transportnsw.info/resources/documents/TfNSW-ticketing-customer-handbook.pdf

I have consulted the handbook and I haven't been able to make enough sense of it to answer the question.

...

The Bankstown Circle is 40.84 km and Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool are not on the circle. However, it notes that break of journey between a station on the circular route (the city in this case) and a station not on the circular route (Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool) in this case is permitted on the shortest route (which won't help in this case as the shortest route won't include Bankstown).

However, it is also allowed on the "other route" if the distance from the CRE station (the first station on the circular route that you enter) to the station on the circular route (destination or origin) is more than 37% (15.11 km) for the total circular route distance.

Now, if you travel between Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool to the City via Bankstown, your CRE is presumably Birrong. This is 24.56 km from the City, which exceeds the threshold requirement.

To me, this means that a ticket from Glenfield/Cabramatta/Liverpool would allow a break of journey at Bankstown and at Regents Park (both being on the Bankstown Circle). However, I'm not entirely sure about Chester Hill, not being the shortest route for Glenfield and not being on the Bankstown Circle either.
clrks


A periodical from Regents Park to Redfern is by the shortest route more than the 15.11km, so you can use it to break journey at either Strathfield or Bankstown.

A periodical from Liverpool to Redfern has the shortest route via Regents Park, so the CRE is Regents Park and the relevant distance (from CRE to destination, that is, the part ot the shortest route that is on the Bankstown Circle) is as before from Regents Park to Redfern. Once again, breaking at Strathfield and Bankstown is ok.

A periodical from Regents Park to the City is similar, the relevant distance is Regents Park (origin) to Redfern (CRE), and breaking is ok at Strathfield and Bankstown.

A periodical from Liverpool to the City doesn't fit either of the categories described. Neither Liverpool nor the City is on the Bankstown Circle. Common sense would say that if you can break at Bankstown on a Liverpool-Redfern ticket, you should also be able to break there on a Liverpool-City ticket or even Liverpool-St Leonards, but I'd be hesitant to rely on common sense. It would be consistent with the logic of what is in the document to say that when your shortest route goes through the circle (from one CRE, eg Regents Park, to another CRE, eg Redfern) and the distance is greater than the specified minimum (in this case 15.11km), you can break on either route. But the Handbook doesn't actually say that.

It's even less clear regarding a Glenfield-Redfern periodical. This journey is on the Glenfield Circle, and using those rules you can break at Strathfield. It's also a journey from a station not on the Bankstown Circle to a station on the Bankstown Circle, but neither way through the Circle is the shortest route between the two stations, so that whole section is hard to interpret in this case. It doesn't say anything about the case where you can break on one of the routes only because of another circular route. The one thing that I think is clear is that you can't break at Granville by any interpretation.

If you take a Glenfield-City ticket instead, the Bankstown Circle is possibly not relevant at all, since neither station is on it, just like Liverpool-City above. For Macarthur-City, it's not even clear you can break at Strathfield, for the same reason.


Conclusion

As you can see, I'm pretty confused analysing the fares handbook. It doesn't seem to be constructed very well.

There's also a supplementary issue I have with the circles.

According to the Glenfield Circle bit, so long as the distance between my origin station on the Glenfield Circle and the city exceeds 30.97 km, I can have a break of journey on the "other route".

So read strictly, doesn't this mean that if I buy a Warwick Farm to City periodical ticket (a distance of 35.3 km), because this exceeds 30.97 km, you can travel anywhere on the Glenfield Circle loop and break your journey? And because of that, someone can also exit at Glenfield?

If this is true, people at Glenfield can save a lot of money travelling to the City as their fare band is higher than that of Warwick Farm, and with a Warwick Farm to City periodical ticket, they can still get off and start a journey at Glenfield legally.

I'm not sure if this reading is correct - as I noted, the fares handbook is pretty confusing.
clrks


Sorry, no, for Warwick Farm to City, the relevant distance is from Warwick Farm (origin) and Redfern (CRE), and is only 29.23km (where are you getting 35.3km from?), so you can't break at Glenfield.

But... before MyZone, the handbook did specifically talk about situations similar to that. I don't know whether there are any left now there are fewer fare bands, but it used to be the case that Canterbury-Parramatta was cheaper than Marrickville-Parramatta, but still covered breaking journey at Marrickville. The handbook gave an example using Hornsby, but I can't remember the details - probably cheaper from Waitara, or something like that. Anyway, the handbook spelt out that the rule about buying tickets at a different station from the origin (section 6.4) meant that (in my example) you couldn't buy the cheaper Canterbury-Parramatta ticket at Marrickville station, but would have to buy it from Canterbury or somewhere where the fare would be just as cheap. This is a silly way to deal with it, since the obvious way round was to simply buy Parramatta-Canterbury tickets at Parramatta. As I said, though, I haven't checked whether any of these loopholes still exist.

No matter what, the fares handbook is definitely incomplete.
  jpd Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
The other thing that is not explicitly stated in the fares handbook is whether it is generally ok to travel (never mind break your journey) via a route that isn't a shortest route. There are all the circular cases where it says you can travel both ways, or to change at Central rather than Redfern, or when there are disruptions, which would all seem to imply that you usually need to use the shortest route only, but it never actually says that.

For example, depending on the time it is sometimes quicker (and was quite often on the old timetable) to travel from Pendle Hill to the City by changing at Seven Hills. Does your single/return/periodical Pendle Hil-City ticket allow that? The handbook doesn't say it doesn't!
  Blackadder Chief Commissioner

Location: Not the ECRL
No, any journey broken or not can only be on a direct (approved)route between origin and destination.
  AndyV Station Master

This handbook is new to me and quite an interesting, but a complicated read.

I have another question that hopefully someone can help me with, and could save me a lot of money!

I travel from Woy Woy to the city and use wynyard, town hall and central depending on where I need to go. I buy a Woy Woy to City ticket which is a distance of 65.19km. This distance puts it into the highest fare band by just 0.19km and makes it cost an extra $9 per week.

If I bought a Woy Woy to wynyard ticket, this journey is 61.98km, in the lower fare band, and $9 cheaper per week.

Given the 'Hornsby Circle' rules that permit travel and break of journey on either route (via north shore or northern), could I purchase a Woy Woy to Wynyard ticket and still use this to 'break my journey' to enter and exit at town hall or central?

Any advise on the interpretation of the rules would for this situation would be greatly appreciated!!
  jpd Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
No, any journey broken or not can only be on a direct (approved)route between origin and destination.
Blackadder


I realise that's meant to be the rule, but the handbook is written so badly that it doesn't actually say that anywhere.
  jpd Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
Any advise on the interpretation of the rules would for this situation would be greatly appreciated!!
AndyV

Hornsby to Wynyard is less than 25km, so there's no break of journey allowed on the Strathfield route.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
This handbook is new to me and quite an interesting, but a complicated read.
AndyV

Not very interesting at all.  Once Sydney goes to an all Opal system (which is inevitable IMO), abominations like that manual can be tossed out.

As for your question about Woy Woy-City travel, Opal gives you the best possible fare as compared to MyTrain at least so I have no idea why you are so determined to avoid using it.
  jpd Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
Once Sydney goes to an all Opal system (which is inevitable IMO), abominations like that manual can be tossed out.
simonl


Yes.


As for your question about Woy Woy-City travel, Opal gives you the best possible fare as compared to MyTrain at least so I have no idea why you are so determined to avoid using it.


Not necessarily.

If you make at least 7 paid peak journeys between Woy Woy and the City in at least 47 weeks in a year, you will pay more than a MyTrain yearly. And that's while the weekly cap is in place. There are various usage patterns where you're better off staying with paper tickets until they are fased out or at least on the same fare structure.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
Righto.  What I was thinking was it's better than Return/Weekly/14 Day/28 Day tickets.  Quarterly and longer periodical tickets might work out better for some people, but require a big commitment up front.  I always thought it was too much hassle.
  sydneytwains Station Master

This is my first post. So please bare with me. As a x transit officer I would like to voice my opinion in regards to ticketing and opal.
This is all to the best of my knowledge into the system after serving 7 years.
To me the railways have all but given up on fare compliance. It's a losing battle. At my local station I have observed abuse of the Opal card already. People are just not tagging on or off, this includes gated station where customers still pull the old tricks like using the wide gate or doubling up. As it stands if a user has a Opal card all they have to do is avoid Transport Officers or literally walk away from them. The police currently don't have Opal card readers nor do station barrier staff. Ultimately this government is not really concerned with fare evasion as they are making a motza from the Opal pool of money with Commonwealth and Macquarie Banks. That in turn is offsetting the losses. I'm particularly interested to see if the actual user figures are ever genuinely published making comparisons between paper tickets and opal profits. Looking at the current marketing by the railways it appears the powers to be are cramming opal down users down users throats. Just look at all the posters and listen to all the automatic announcements. As mentioned by another user on RP the closure of human ticket sales.
This whole scenario is so political and diabolical. It was published in the media that 1 in 5 people don't have tickets or are entitled to a concession. Needless to say that a high percentage of fines issued are not paid. In saying that the fines are not going to go away either.
My conclusion is that nothing can be changed overnight to fix the mess that ticketing is currently in.
I have also been informed that the current transport officers have been instructed not to fine anyone with a opal card as this will be detrimental to the current governments baby.
I don't have answers to making Sydney Trains are world class network. But you could start with educating the people that use it.

*Feel free to move this message to the appropriate place site managers.
Thanks.
  AndyV Station Master

As for your question about Woy Woy-City travel, Opal gives you the best possible fare as compared to MyTrain at least so I have no idea why you are so determined to avoid using it.

I would love to use opal, but it will cost me even more than I'm currently paying buying a Woy Woy - City quarterly ticket 4 times a year. And I included in my calculations an estimate of half my trips being to wynyard instead of town hall or central and the quartetly still came out ahead Sad
  clrks Locomotive Fireman

Thanks for the replies guys.

jpd, for Warwick Farm, I got a distance of 35.3 km because I used Warwick Farm to City, I did not know that you don't count the city stations as part of the circle (only up to Redfern).

I guess when it comes down to it, the basic question of my post is


Is there any periodical ticket (not MyMulti) between the city and a station on the outer fringes of the city circle lines that would allow legal travel on all branches of the city circle lines, permitting exit or entrance on any stations along those branches (e.g. a ticket between a station X and the city that would allow break of journey at Revesby, Bankstown, Regents Park, Granville, and Strathfield)?
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
No.  I do not think so.
  jpd Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sydney
You're not going to do better than City-Glenfield, which definitely doesn't give breaks at Granville, and probably not Bankstown.
  belfordrocks South Coast G Set

In my experience a periodical Weekly (not Multi) ticket isn't also restricted to direct route - I know that a City to Hurstville/Sutherland periodical also lets you break in Mascot/Green Square etc.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: jpd

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.