Further SG Conversion for Victoria?

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Stumbled across this image from website http://www.newaustralia.net/transport_vic_rail.html  Are these guys a think tank on transport reform?

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  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Not exactly an up to date map is it.

Just look at the NE and Oaklands.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Not exactly an up to date map is it.

Just look at the NE and Oaklands.
mikesyd


I noticed it is an older map but my interest was in the Western part of Victoria and the North Western part.

I had not heard of this group prior.

Regards
Brian
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I see that after SG to Mildura that Ouyen - Pinnaroo is still isolated as BG. No doubt that is to:


  1. Ensure that it is closed/remains closed.

  2. Prevent any Mildura traffic or grain taking a short cut to Port Adelaide.



Victoria is hiding behind the broad gauge and the community will suffer for it.
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
When Melb to Adelaide was BG and Ouyen to Pinnaroo to Tailem Bend was BG how many trains per week
ran from Mildura to Port Adelaide.
Answer NONE.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
When Melb to Adelaide was BG and Ouyen to Pinnaroo to Tailem Bend was BG how many trains per week
ran from Mildura to Port Adelaide.
Answer NONE.
MD

That was because of the colonial system.   Murrayville traffic went to Melbourne and Pinaroo went to Adelaide even though they are not that far apart.   Anything from or to Victoria had to go all the way to Melbourne before going interstate.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
... Anything from or to Victoria had to go all the way to Melbourne before going interstate.
Donald

Well not quite, there were plenty of exceptions such as the Mt Gambier to Portland line.

Yes, we all know that state boundaries are now totally out of whack with modern population centres. If they were redrawing them today, broken Hill (which runs on Adelaide time) and Mildura would be in S.A., Mt Gambier would either be in Victoria or merged with that state's Western District into a new province, etc. but that's a whole different discussion...
.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
When Melb to Adelaide was BG and Ouyen to Pinnaroo to Tailem Bend was BG how many trains per week
ran from Mildura to Port Adelaide.
Answer NONE.
MD

Rather proves my point that state jealousies/parochialism (call it what you want) hindered so many efficiencies/economies even way back in time. Retention of the BG is only an extension of that.
Is it not a fact that Freight Australia actively opposed standardisation as a strategic means of keeping NSW and AN out of Victoria?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Stumbled across this image from website http://www.newaustralia.net/transport_vic_rail.html Are these guys a think tank on transport reform?

bevans

This rail network map Is so out of wack that It should be totally dismissed !

Warrnambool, Frankston/Long Island, Leongatha (booked out of service), Dandenong/Bairnsdale, Bendigo/Piangil, Sunshine - Ballarat lines have had no suggestion or rubbing of been even considered for standardisation.

The map has the Barnes - Deniliquin closed and to be abandon, though the Barnes - Moulamein Is booked out and abandon today.

What Is there at Korong Vale these days that generates rail traffic to justify gauge conversion ?

The Murtoa - Hopetoun line ! retained as broad gauge !

The line West of Ouyan to be abandon.

(All In all this Is a pre 2009 map showing Broad and Standard gauge railways of the Victorian system and someone has marked over some of the pink lines with grey (you can see the pink boarder lines each side of the grey line) and came up with this bogus caption to explain what the coloured lines represent.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Are these guys a think tank on transport reform?
bevans

It's a daft bloke with a website. No budgeting supplied, no justifications vis-a-vis individual line conversion and an out-of-date map.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me

Are these guys a think tank on transport reform?
"bevans"

It's a daft bloke with a website. No budgeting supplied, no justifications vis-a-vis individual line conversion and an out-of-date map.
"LancedDendrite"

The website linked by bevans lists the following under "contact" This site is currently maintained by Alan Ide with submissions from other interested parties.
Digging a bit deeper I found "Alan Ide, Australian Democrats candidate for Oakleigh (Vic)"
http://alan-ide.vic-democrats.org.au/
The link mentions a proposal for 400kph Maglev trains for the Melbourne CBD !
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Whilst this particular item may have a map out of whack has been said, I'm sure fellow rail pagers will have read many similar threads throughout Railpage Australia™ discussing standardisation of the remaining north eastern, and north/northwestern regional freight network. The grain sector as well as regional shire councils are increasingly lobbying for this to happen and putting aside funding major reforms in grain handling and new operators like QUBE are showing there is a very strong impetus for doing this.  I won't revisit all that has been said about the benefits and opportunities for doing so but I think there is even an appetite within Government to reconsider this.

At a Federal Government level and as raised by rail pagers on current threads the Government is revisiting road charging yet again because there is a real issue about the high cost of maintains roads.  Sure it's not stopping roads being funded but there's a huge maintenance deficit in road maintenance across the country and someone has to pay for it.  In that sense as we know you can get a hell of a lot of rail rehabilitated relative to road so upgrading the network and converting to standard gauge is a real option.
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic
If/when the time comes for them to convert the north west of the state, it needs to be done to mainline standard, as in 100kph line speeds, with, in that part of the world, a 25t axle limit to allow for 100t grain wagons. This map seems to talk about isolating the pinnaroo line, however that would not be a wise move, with a lot of grain in that part of the state needing to be shifted, and while its use would be infrequent, re-establishing a through link from up there to the west, perhaps at lower speeds could have the benefit of increasing the capacity between Melbourne and Adelaide without large scale duplication works.

just my 2c worth
  gy Junior Train Controller

Not with standing the dated map I hope the Lobby Group behind this proposal can succeed.
I believe the Country lines of Victoria should be gauge converted to Standard Gauge as the efficiencies gained are sometimes subtle and sometimes have compelling economic reasons.
The subtle is for any industry to have maximum efficiencies it must have and be able to integrate with the system as a whole in this case the National Standard Gauge System.
The simplest is grain haulage. If there is a drought in Northern NSW and a resultant surplus of Wheat Hoppers it is a simple matter to run the wagons to Victoria and supplement the poole if needed. Currently you could but who supplies and keeps a poole of bogies just in case as they cost money and basically for every wagon two sets of bogies would be required. No one!
Locomotives, the VL's similarly had to be gauge converted for the Paper Train at a significant cost compared to just running into Victoria, hook on and away.
No other Industry would accept the current situation. The Car Industry after many years were in part the reason the Fuels of Australia being changed to West Coast Blend or Euro 3 as it became obvious to alter the fuel side of the engine to accept Australian Fuel then twig it for South America was stupid. Change the fuel to a standard then all cars run where ever.    
Think about a Jet Airliner, it can fuel anywhere in the world? Why because AVTUR for jet engines is made to a World Standard, the American Petroleum Institute standard, that says it all. There is no Victorian Plane fuel with a special tank in Sydney for them if they fly north.
When you put these two examples in print it becomes absurd that The Railways of Australia accept the current situation and from the outside appear to be not Politically Lobbying to get some common sense in the system.
You would hope that other than Level Crossing Upgrades which are relaid dual gauge all new Concrete Sleepers would be gauge convertible. We are not talking about the Sandringham Suburban Branch but Country Lines only.
Particularly on the Western and Albury lines we are conscious of building overhead structures suitable for double stacking of containers so why not equally plan for gauge conversion by placing all new sleepers on the broad gauge gauge convertible.
The Road Industry is always on about and I think have uniform weights and dimensions Australia wide. I wonder why?
It is only the Rail Industry that seems to be happy with what was created in 1854. If I was a Trucking Organization I would be more than happy with an Opposition locked in at 1854 and planning to change when it becomes obvious change is needed.
Regards PTE
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Not with standing the dated map I hope the Lobby Group behind this proposal can succeed.....................................
Regards PTE
"gy"


If you read my earlier post you'll see that this "Lobby Group" is in fact Alan Ide, Australian Democrats candidate for Oakleigh (Vic)

So for them to succeed the voters of Victoria need to vote for them on mass
  gy Junior Train Controller

If you read my earlier post you'll see that this "Lobby Group" is in fact Alan Ide, Australian Democrats candidate for Oakleigh (Vic)

So for them to succeed the voters of Victoria need to vote for them on mass
Pressman

Point taken Pressman.
With luck this group may cause another Party to at least think about it and who knows do something.
PTE
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
Guage conversion just for the sake of being uniform doesnt achieve anything if the only result is that
the same trains which used to run on BG now run on SG , but carry the same freight to the same destinations.
If for example guage converting Geelong to Mildura , just results in the same trains running from Mildura to melbourne on SG
instead of BG, then all thats been achieved is the spending of a lot of money moving rails inwards.
There has to be an identified market that requires the freight to go interstate.
Theres also no evidence that having a SG line running thru a town increases it rail export potential.
Good examples of this are towns like Wangaratta, Benalla and Seymour which have had a SG line running thru the towns since 1962
but no rail freight originates or terminates at those towns because no SG freight trains stop there.
What few lines that have been guage converted like Portland or Yaapeet or Dunolly havnt resulted in any extra interstate trains.
Just the same trains that used to run on BG now run on SG.
Whilst not in VIC , an even worse case scenerio is the now closed Apumurra line in SA which was guage converted when the
Melb Adelaide was guage converted.
Guage conversion did nothing in this case.

Instead of wasting money on guage converting lines, its better to spend the money where an immediate benefit can be obtained
such as a SG line to hastings to overcome the costly double handling of the steel trains .
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
Fair point MD, but there is a growing difference in the size of the SG and BG rail fleets, which over time you would expect to translate across to a difference in fleet flexibility, and therefore perhaps the feasibility or cost of providing a service.

(The "U" and "A" keys on your keyboard appear to have been swapped.)
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Gauge conversion just for the sake of being uniform doesn't achieve anything if the only result is that
the same trains which used to run on BG now run on SG , but carry the same freight to the same destinations.

...

Instead of wasting money on gauge converting lines, its better to spend the money where an immediate benefit can be obtained
such as a SG line to Hastings to overcome the costly double handling of the steel trains.
MD

You're right that it doesn't necessarily change the types, volumes and destinations for existing freight carried on a gauge-converted line. However, converting to standard gauge gives you access to many more freight operators (with potentially more modern locos and better wagons).

Take the Mildura line for instance. If that was gauge converted down to least Maryborough, grain and fruit could be possibly exported through Portland instead of Geelong. That introduces some competition for export ports, along with allowing more freight operators than just Qube and PN to compete for that freight. Of course, it also opens up the possibility of rehabilitating the Pinnaroo line to handle traffic to Adelaide, a new line to Broken Hill for Transcontinental Line access and so on.

As for an SG line to Hastings, I really hope that the Government is considering an SG freight line to the Port of Hastings via the Cranbourne line alignment and that they connect it to the Long Island Steelworks. Of course, the line mightn't be built before the steelworks closes.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
I agree with you MD, gauge conversion for it's own sake, will not mean additional traffic.

The case of the Apumurra line in SA, this line is a branch line off the DIRN and if not converted when it was then it would have become an orphaned BG line and it's grain traffic would have been lost to rail totally. (More recent changes to Grain Handling companies and their transport mentality has since seen this traffic cease.)
The other Mallee lines in SA managed to operate as an Isolated BG network with a captive fleet of 830 class locos because there where grain transfer facilities at Tailem Bend Sub Terminal silos, and a resonable loco depot there. Both the Loxton and Pinnaroo lines where eventually converted to SG with trains working through to Port Adelaide.
Same goes for Portland and Yaapeet line, if left as BG they would have also become orphaned and lost traffic totally. And in Portland's case, being a grain export terminal would mean the loss of all the grain traffic to road if not converted.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Instead of wasting money on guage converting lines, its better to spend the money where an immediate benefit can be obtained
such as a SG line to hastings to overcome the costly double handling of the steel trains .
MD

I think Bluescope Steel going belly up will solve this cost problem.

Melbourne steel terminal, relocating to Somerton yard area, could be a SG steel train operating from Appleton Dock to Somerton steel terminal carrying mostly Thailand made steel ?
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

You're right that it doesn't necessarily change the types, volumes and destinations for existing freight carried on a gauge-converted line. However, converting to standard gauge gives you access to many more freight operators (with potentially more modern locos and better wagons).

Take the Mildura line for instance. If that was gauge converted down to least Maryborough, grain and fruit could be possibly exported through Portland instead of Geelong. That introduces some competition for export ports, along with allowing more freight operators than just Qube and PN to compete for that freight. Of course, it also opens up the possibility of rehabilitating the Pinnaroo line to handle traffic to Adelaide, a new line to Broken Hill for Transcontinental Line access and so on.

As for an SG line to Hastings, I really hope that the Government is considering an SG freight line to the Port of Hastings via the Cranbourne line alignment and that they connect it to the Long Island Steelworks. Of course, the line mightn't be built before the steelworks closes.
LancedDendrite

The  line to Maryborough ( Dunolly) has been converted to standard gauge and runs via Ararat to Portland . This has been a total failure as the line is now a LEMON (mothballed)
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
The line to Maryborough ( Dunolly) has been converted to standard gauge and runs via Ararat to Portland . This has been a total failure as the line is now a LEMON (mothballed)
trainbrain

If you standardise the Mildura line and link it to the Western SG line through that way, I think that the Ararat-Maryborough line will become a bit more economical somehow.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The line to Maryborough ( Dunolly) has been converted to standard gauge and runs via Ararat to Portland . This has been a total failure as the line is now a LEMON (mothballed)
trainbrain

More to do with a major general downturn In Intra State rail freight.

As the conversion was designed to shuffle grain between smaller silos In the Wimmera to Dunolly sub terminal.

Dunolly sub terminal to have access to the grain export terminal at Portland, so grain from the North West of the State could be exported at Portland (or other SG grain Ports In SE Australia) via storage and "time".


Also there Is a ballast siding that was used by ballast plat trains working around the SG lines In the Western District (I guess this ballast Is now trucked to a accessible siding, local to basting works)

Fat chance Mildura region - Geelong/Melbourne freights will operate via Avoca, Ararat, Maroona and Cressy as some people seam to be wishfully hinting.

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