A-City trains

 
  davida62 Station Master

Is there any info an Adelaide Metro (or wherever) which indicates which services are run by A-City trains? I have some friends living east of Adelaide keen to try one of the new trains on a run south.

Sponsored advertisement

  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The real time app generally knows, although it has been wrong too.

Many services on the Seaford line are spark now, the most reliable method of getting one is to wait on the concourse and just board one when it appears on the platform.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

EMUs run about one third of peak services to/from Seaford in the morning and afternoon, and about half of the trains between the peaks.

Outside of AFL trains, they are still pretty rare at nights and on weekends.
  davida62 Station Master

4007 is running as a test train today.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

Transit times + app shows which vehicle is used, but you only get like 5 to 10 mins notice. If it's a 4000 class it will show 4305 if it's 4005 etc. Maybe someone who knows more about the app can explain further.
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Transit times + app shows which vehicle is used, but you only get like 5 to 10 mins notice. If it's a 4000 class it will show 4305 if it's 4005 etc. Maybe someone who knows more about the app can explain further.
torrens5022


Should be within 20 minutes notice at least thats from my experience using that app since the feeder Adelaide Metro provide the live timing only works within 20 minutes from the stop you have it selected to.

Well this service had it displaying as 21 minutes from live timing so it goes to at least 20 minutes and if its an electric the app will display the engine type as electric for diesel it won't show the engine type of that service.

http://i58.tinypic.com/1zfsohz.png
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Transit times + app shows which vehicle is used, but you only get like 5 to 10 mins notice. If it's a 4000 class it will show 4305 if it's 4005 etc. Maybe someone who knows more about the app can explain further.
"torrens5022"
It uses the same feed which is rendered like this on the Adelaide Metro website, notice that wheelchair accessibility is shown as a 'feature' in the same way that an EMU is - this is not so obvious for buses where there are still a large number of discriminatory buses running around.



The "real-time" data is not a full real-time function. If the service is late or cancelled, it will still show the time it is due on the feed even though it's plainly a lie - see this current display for Zone B at Flinders Medical Centre:



There's no way that 721F is coming in eight minutes' time!
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Correct JAP, just a bit earlier on this very day I arrived at a stop to see my bus depart. Real time was there to help out and tell me the bus that was now at the next stop down the road would be arriving at mine in 1 minute. I had missed the bus, waited while I opened the page on my phone, waited 56 seconds for the page to refresh and it still told me the bus would turn up in a minute - WRONG!
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Just the same as real time indicators at train stations as well, one the other day told all and sundry that the next Outer Harbor train would arrive at Woodville in 2 minutes and it looked to have just come around the corner from the parklands and into Bowden! 8 minutes later it rolled up or there abouts anyway!
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
Just the same as real time indicators at train stations as well, one the other day told all and sundry that the next Outer Harbor train would arrive at Woodville in 2 minutes and it looked to have just come around the corner from the parklands and into Bowden! 8 minutes later it rolled up or there abouts anyway!
David Peters

Those LCD screens on platforms are rubbish, they don't actually show the real time arrival of trains, just their scheduled departure, I found the only reliable source of information today was the old outdated speaker box that told me my train was going to be 4 minutes late, and guess what, it was actually was 4 minutes late.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Those LCD screens on platforms are rubbish, they don't actually show the real time arrival of trains, just their scheduled departure, I found the only reliable source of information today was the old outdated speaker box that told me my train was going to be 4 minutes late, and guess what, it was actually was 4 minutes late.
Tonsley213

All of those 'real-time' apps are rubbish too - I use the one to catch trams at my nearest stop and it sometimes registers ghost trams that suddenly disappear when they're less than a minute from departure. Very frustrating.
  Paul Surguy Beginner

All of those 'real-time' apps are rubbish - I use the one to catch trams at my nearest stop and it sometimes registers ghost trams that suddenly disappear when they're less than a minute from departure.
don_dunstan

Hi Guys this is my first post 4008B has just arrived at the Seaford Depot 11.45am this morning still looks clean Paul
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

Bring on 4009 and 4010 now but good to see these deliveries faster than they have ever been before.
  1S47 Assistant Commissioner

Location: On the Down Fast
When 4007 & 4008 enter service, it'll be interesting to see if there are any visible differences to 4002 - 4006.

Wasn't it suggested that the reason for the long delay in deliveries after 4006 was to rectify some design issues with the first sets.  Wonder if the differences will be noticeable (or exist at all)?
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

To the passengers there probably wouldn't be any noticeable difference afterall 4002-4006 have already been refitted to fix the quality issues of the previous railcars. Presumably the railcars will now be fully refitted to avoid having to go down to Dry Creek and they can enter the testing phase as soon as they are assembled.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
To the passengers there probably wouldn't be any noticeable difference afterall 4002-4006 have already been refitted to fix the quality issues of the previous railcars. Presumably the railcars will now be fully refitted to avoid having to go down to Dry Creek and they can enter the testing phase as soon as they are assembled.
Milkomeda

Most passengers don't even realise there is a difference between 3000 and 3100 railcars let alone subtle differences between any two of the "same" class. Some are not even aware that there is a difference between 2000/2100 and 3000/3100 classes. All they know is that it is a train.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
When 4007 & 4008 enter service, it'll be interesting to see if there are any visible differences to 4002 - 4006.

Wasn't it suggested that the reason for the long delay in deliveries after 4006 was to rectify some design issues with the first sets. Wonder if the differences will be noticeable (or exist at all)?
1S47

I wonder the same thing - what (apart from the flooring) were there issues that held up the schedule for so long? At least it seems to be returning to somewhat of a regular schedule of delivery now.
  Jumbo2001 Junior Train Controller

I wonder the same thing - what (apart from the flooring) were there issues that held up the schedule for so long? At least it seems to be returning to somewhat of a regular schedule of delivery now.
don_dunstan


I am sure I have said it in this thread at least a couple of times, but I will again. The slowness in deliveries can be put down to:
- Reworking fit/finish issues, fixing the production process so that all the EMU's come out as the quality desired.

This was the biggest delay in it, not to mention I'm lead to believe that work relating to walk ways between cars has happened to allow them to traverse all switches without hitting eachother, couplers were changed on later build, and the most important change is that from 4007 onwards, ATP, the new coupler, and all other fixes have been added to it.

4001-4006 will need to go through Dry Creek to be retrofitted with ATP.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
4001-4006 will need to go through Dry Creek to be retrofitted with ATP.
Jumbo2001

Okay, thanks.  Is ATP really that complicated? I would have thought on such an advanced train it would have simply been a matter of software.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Okay, thanks.  Is ATP really that complicated? I would have thought on such an advanced train it would have simply been a matter of software.
"don_dunstan"
There would definitely be a hardware module to be fitted (source) and the MITRAC computers reprogrammed to talk to it - such safety-critical systems would obviously have a few more safeguards for making changes than a humble PC which self-installs drivers when you plug in a new printer.

However, the rolling stock modules of ETCS Level 1 (the ATP system which was chosen - there are over 20 different ATP systems in use around the world) are off-the-shelf items already in proven use all around the world. If the delay really is to do with the ETCS modules not having been fitted up to now, it would therefore appear (once again) that the delays go back to supply chain problems.

I would hypothesise that there's a second possibility rather than it being one of the many Bombardier quality control issues - it could actually be a problem with the trackside part of the ETCS setup which was contracted out to Siemens (Invensys). There were lots of problems with the signalling work last year which led to a mad rush towards the end to get the line reopened before it affected the election campaign too badly, so maybe the trackside part of ETCS has only just been completed and the A-City units have been running around with their ETCS modules physically installed but locked out of use up to now, with the work yet to be done simply being to activate them and tell the computers to talk to them.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Thanks for that interesting explanation -

Would it make any difference that the track-side system is Siemens and the trains Bombardier?
  Halo Chief Train Controller

Perhaps someone could fill in those slow ones among us (me at least) what these abbreviations stand for and how or why these devices need to be changed?

Ta☺
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Thanks for that interesting explanation -

Would it make any difference that the track-side system is Siemens and the trains Bombardier?
"don_dunstan"
No. The whole point creating a standard is to allow inter-operabability across borders regardless of who installed the equipment. ETCS is ETCS regardless of who installed it.

The same applies to other ATP systems like the French TVM430 used on the LGV network - a standard is a standard. The LGV Angais from Calais to Londres (known to the British as High Speed 1, although the 1 will remain redundant until at least 20 years from now) has trains built by Alstom, Hitachi and Brush all using it without incident.

Perhaps someone could fill in those slow ones among us (me at least) what these abbreviations stand for and how or why these devices need to be changed?

Ta☺
"Halo"
ATP is Automatic Train Protection, this is a non-specific term for any system which provides automatic protection as well as having the human driver in the loop, it prevents a train from speeding or from passing a signal where they were required to stop. ETCS is just one ATP system, there are over 20 others which all have their own acronyms like KVB, TVM, PZB, LZB, TBL and so on. ATP is important for making a railway safe, it is now recognised that you can't just rely on saying "we pay the drivers to obey the signals" because you're essentially betting on the lives of hundreds of people every time a train approaches any signal or change in speed limit.

ETCS is the European Train Control System, which along with GSM-R (radio communication technology derived from the Groupe Spécial Mobile standard for 2G mobile phones) makes up the ERTMS (European Rail Traffic Management System) that is specified by the TSI (Technical Standards for Inter-operability) for allowing inter-operable train travel across the open borders of Europe. We are getting ETCS Level 1 in Adelaide, we were to be the first ETCS deployment in the Southern Hemisphere except that it has become so delayed that Auckland beat us to it seven weeks ago.

We currently have no ATP system in Adelaide. What changes with adopting ETCS Level 1 in Adelaide is that the train receives an update from a yellow balise (a term adopted from the French KVB and TVM systems) between the tracks which essentially tells the train where it is authorised to travel to (i.e. the distance to the next red signal) and imposes a braking curve on the approach to that signal. Each time a balise is passed, the movement authority is updated and a new braking curve calculated. With a braking curve imposed by ETCS, in theory we should see the removal of the rule that a yellow signal is to be interpreted as a 40 km/h speed limit.
  davida62 Station Master

Thanks you for that clear and comprehensive explanation, on behalf of many people puzzling over the acronyms.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

4007 was out on a testing/training run during the off-peak late this morning, chasing yellows a couple of blocks behind a DEMU in service. If the ETCS modules were active this would have provided good training for the driver to get used to the braking curve routine.

Today was the first time I had ridden a Seaford-bound train on the city-Goodwood section since the bustitutions finished six months ago. I was on a DEMU and the ride was extremely bouncy all the way from the GSR carriage wash through to the entrance to the Anzac Highway underpass - think of the road to Pinnaroo. Was this section of the track rebuilt last year or did they just add the wires over the top of the existing track?

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.