Gunnedah NSW

 
  flewy69er Locomotive Fireman

Hey there,

So I'm thinking of constructing a model railway based on Gunnedah however I can't seem to find any good detailed track plans ( with lengths and what not). I'd post this in the model section however it seems more appropriate in here. Any help would be great!


Thanks
Michael

Sponsored advertisement

  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Gunnedah yard needs reconfiguration, looks like freight has to slow down to get through the platform.
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
Gunnedah yard needs reconfiguration, looks like freight has to slow down to get through the platform
Junction box

I was there in April and indeed it does. Pending shunting operations everything goes through the platform road. I think the speed through there was 20km/h and after a brief chat with the shunter from the Manildra Mill its been that way for many years.
  sashmo Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane Qld
IF you want a more detailed map of Gunnedah try contacting the ARHS NSW Div bookshop they sell signallign and safeworking diagrams there are 11 diagrams.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Gunnedah yard needs reconfiguration, looks like freight has to slow down to get through the platform.
Junction box

That's correct, the turnouts at either end are not exactly speedy either!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/raichase/6788408967

You can see the coal wagons have to kink through the platform, as normally the through road is occupied by Manildra Group hoppers - these are the ones that feed grain from the n/w to the mill.
  Factory_Fill Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne VIC
Isn't there a job on currently to *well* not fix the issue but at least improve it?
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
Yes, with commissioning planned for the last quarter of the year.  A speed limit of 40 km/h may still apply due to noise concerns.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Gunnedah yard needs reconfiguration, looks like freight has to slow down to get through the platform.
Junction box


Gunnedah is one of a small number of crossing loops originally built with the "Through and Platform" arrangement rather than the more common "Main and Loop" configuration.

Others include:
* Riverstone - partially fixed at country end. Few non stop trains.
* Scone - partially fixed (uselessly) at country end. Should go back to original arrangement. Many non stop trains.
* Cootamundra
* Tamworth - fully signalled with splitting distant signals until the 1950s. IIRC, Down graded to key locked loop.
*** Non stop trains could use the through road and avoid the X25 turnouts.
* There might be a few more.

It is not clear why the Through and Platform arrangement was ever adopted, but this was done before the yards were interlocked.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
BTW, see other thread re need for second overbridge at Gunnedah.

See: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1701887.htm#1701887
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
BTW, see other thread re need for second overbridge at Gunnedah.

See: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1701887.htm#1701887
awsgc24


If the New St xing is the one to be replaced by an overbridge, then the former engine road(s) can be extended for stabling of wagons instead of on the Through Road, allowing the through road to become the main line and the platform road abolished, with a short platform rebuilt on the former through road.

All the signals through the platform road showing band of lights are suitable for showing green lights on the new straight route.

The 201x ARTC plans show Engine Roads, Oil Sidings, Stock Sidings, Goods Shed Roads which are surely obsolete names and can be abolished, unless of course they have new but unnamed uses.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

Gunnedah is one of a small number of crossing loops originally built with the "Through and Platform" arrangement rather than the more common "Main and Loop" configuration.

It is not clear why the Through and Platform arrangement was ever adopted, but this was done before the yards were interlocked.
awsgc24

In NSW main lines (and some branch lines) were planned and constructed with future duplication in mind.
Standard practice was to build the main line on the Down, and the loop on the future Up alignment.
The initial single line platform was normally provided on whichever side faced the town.
So, at places like Gunnedah, the station was built on Up side, which was the loop.
There were only a few exceptions to this general planning arrangement.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
In NSW main lines (and some branch lines) were planned and constructed with future duplication in mind.
Standard practice was to build the main line on the Down, and the loop on the future Up alignment.
The initial single line platform was normally provided on whichever side faced the town.
So, at places like Gunnedah, the station was built on Up side, which was the loop.
There were only a few exceptions to this general planning arrangement.
NSWRcars


QLD sometimes built "temporary wooden" bridges one chain away from the site of a future "permanent steel" bridge, so that the slews would disappear when the steel bridge was built.

So similarly building loops in NSW to suit future duplication may make some sense.

However, it would still have been possible to have avoided X25 turnouts, at say Gunnedah, by having slews outside station limits and adopting the Main and Loop format. Slews are simpler than turnouts.

Advance planning for duplication seems to have failed at Turramurra, where the straight Up platform aligns with the Down Main (former single track) and has to slew 3.66m onto a new Up Main alignment.
  a6et Minister for Railways

In NSW main lines (and some branch lines) were planned and constructed with future duplication in mind.
Standard practice was to build the main line on the Down, and the loop on the future Up alignment.
The initial single line platform was normally provided on whichever side faced the town.
So, at places like Gunnedah, the station was built on Up side, which was the loop.
There were only a few exceptions to this general planning arrangement.
NSWRcars

Maybe correct with the duplication aspect, however, when one also considers that the likes of Gunnedah, has the primary goods shed area, oil depots with the station precincts, Meggits & the original flour mill, on top of the station all on the main town side of the lines, it was more for ease of access for customers of both passengers & businesses.

Cootamundra was the same, likewise Goulburn where the majority of passenger trains both up & Down went onto the main platform, again on the main town side.

Gunnedah station road was the main & not the loop.  Check the interlocking arrangements & signalling which defines which is the loop as against the main.  A loop has either the smaller signal in the old Lower Quadrant arragnements which, whereas the main had a full sized arm, the station road had a large home signal, while the loop, was ground frame operated at both ends & a green hand signal to enter the loop with the home signal at stop.
  georges Train Controller

Advance planning for duplication seems to have failed at Turramurra, where the straight Up platform aligns with the Down Main (former single track) and has to slew 3.66m onto a new Up Main alignment.
awsgc24

A bit away from Gunnedah, but the pronounced slewing of the Turramurra Down Main has perhaps resulted from the proximity of a relatively narrow cutting at the Sydney end of the station. The cutting seems to have prevented the Down Main from taking a more gentle approach to the station when the line was duplicated in the early twentieth century. This link shows the tracks and the cutting: http://nswrail.net/locations/gphoto.php?name=NSW:Turramurra:1?iframe=true&width=800&height=600.

Today I noticed obvious wear on the inner side of the outer rail on the Down Main at Turramurra, caused by wheel flanges as the slewing leads them to deviate somewhat abruptly from a straight line. Two narrow steel strips have become detached from the rest of the rail, which seems likely to need replacement soon.

Photo 186 in the Ku-Ring-gai Council Library collection (available only through searching the library catalogue on http://library.kmc.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/MSGTRN/OPAC/COMB, as direct linking does not work), taken in the 1890s suggests that the Up Main formed the original single track. That image shows an even narrower cutting under the road bridge and indicates the extent of the engineering works that were necessary to accommodate the extra track. Photo 193 in the same collection, taken in 1909, suggests that the present Down Main had first been a loop. (The goods siding remained well into the twentieth century: http://nswrail.net/locations/show.php?name=NSW:Turramurra).
  a6et Minister for Railways

Fair enough, but regardless of which track was designated the “Main”, duplication planning resulted in stations on the “Up” side often having a slew, or having the station in the loop. This planning policy seems to have been dropped around the 1920’s.
NSWRcars

Can you say for sure that it was an actual policy?

Take a look at how many of the rural stations are in so many area's & see how they are set up in regard to the where the station & loops are.  IIRC, what is found on the Northern line compared to what is found on the NW line to Moree & on the branches out from there, there arrangements are very much varied.

Going on the NW line from WCK, Breeza is on the down side & no divergence, Curlewis was a turnout for down trains, which in a sense formed the similar arrangement found on the west with down & up crossing loop/main line arrangements, Gunnedah, & Boggabri were both the same, whereas Emerald Hill, Baan Baa & then all the stations to Moree where on what is deemed the main line component of the track, & if you check each were they were also located more on the actual town/village side of the track.

Head up to the Main Northern line & only Duri had the turnout for the station, & again was the main line, just as Scone was in the Hunter.

I would doubt very much that there was any real concept of duplication of the rail lines in those areas of the state, & even now the problems at GDH, is only due to the amount & length of coal trains, & it would be quite an expensive operation to duplicate the line anyway.

The other operational aspect that goes on with GDH these days is that the coal trains are worked by GDH crews who work them to the mines & to NCLE & return.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Gunnedah station road was the main & not the loop. Check the interlocking arrangements & signalling which defines which is the loop as against the main.  
a6et


Terminology is getting confused here, and could get more confused.

The Platform Road at Gunnedah has the points set and locked Normal in the reverse (Curved) position.

The Through Road at Gunnedah has the points set and locked Reverse in the normal (Straight) position

Thus the points are confusingly Normal (signal point of view) and reverse (points POV) at the same time,

or Reverse (signal POV) and normal (points POV) at the same time.

Note the capitalisation of Normal compared to normal, and Reverse compared to reverse.

Thus the Platform Road is the main (signal POV), but not the Main (points POV).

Thus the Through Road is the loop, but not the Loop.

As a general rule, turnouts in the straight position are for the main route, and vice versa, but there are exceptions.

Cabramatta is an equilateral junction with almost the same speed in both directions, and it is hard to say which is the main and which is the branch. Similarly triangular junctions such as at Flemington Goods.

Note that unlike Tamworth, Gunnedah was never fully interlocked in semaphore days, and never had large and small signal arms.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Gunnedah is one of a small number of crossing loops originally built with the "Through and Platform" arrangement rather than the more common "Main and Loop" configuration.

Others include:
* Riverstone - partially fixed at country end. Few non stop trains.
* Scone - partially fixed (uselessly) at country end. Should go back to original arrangement. Many non stop trains.
* Cootamundra
* Tamworth - fully signalled with splitting distant signals until the 1950s. IIRC, Down graded to key locked loop.
*** Non stop trains could use the through road and avoid the X25 turnouts.
* There might be a few more.

It is not clear why the Through and Platform arrangement was ever adopted, but this was done before the yards were interlocked.
awsgc24


i believe benalla was also built this way until the bg was retired.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Cabramatta is an equilateral junction with almost the same speed in both directions, and it is hard to say which is the main and which is the branch. Similarly triangular junctions such as at Flemington Goods.
awsgc24

The "main" is via Carramar, indicated with an "M" on the signal. The "branch" is via Canley Vale, indicated with a "B".
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney

* Tamworth - fully signalled with splitting distant signals until the 1950s. IIRC, Down graded to key locked loop.
*** Non stop trains could use the through road and avoid the X25 turnouts.
awsgc24


Also:

West Tamworth - key locked T & P Road(s) with ground frames.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
I believe Benalla was also built this way until the BG was retired.
JimYarin


Also Violet Town ?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

i believe benalla was also built this way until the bg was retired.
"JimYarin"

Somewhat off topic, but (almost) all of the stations north of Managlore had the platform on the loop. This allowed express trains to run through without diverging, while stopping trains were in the platform. Eminently sensible, to my mind, but I don't think that was the reasoning behind Gunnedah.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
were any of the railway stations in the central west of nsw configured with the station on the loop rather than the main?
  a6et Minister for Railways

Terminology is getting confused here, and could get more confused.

The Platform Road at Gunnedah has the points set and locked Normal in the reverse (Curved) position.

The Through Road at Gunnedah has the points set and locked Reverse in the normal (Straight) position

Thus the points are confusingly Normal (signal point of view) and reverse (points POV) at the same time,

or Reverse (signal POV) and normal (points POV) at the same time.

Note the capitalisation of Normal compared to normal, and Reverse compared to reverse.

Thus the Platform Road is the main (signal POV), but not the Main (points POV).

Thus the Through Road is the loop, but not the Loop.

As a general rule, turnouts in the straight position are for the main route, and vice versa, but there are exceptions.

Cabramatta is an equilateral junction with almost the same speed in both directions, and it is hard to say which is the main and which is the branch. Similarly triangular junctions such as at Flemington Goods.

Note that unlike Tamworth, Gunnedah was never fully interlocked in semaphore days, and never had large and small signal arms.
awsgc24

Normal position for locking is designated for the Main, while reversing, & naturally the points are locked is for the loop, or in the case of other types of turnouts for the diverging or secondary road.

The standard rule of defining how signals work in conjunction with points is that a green light refers to the normal position of the points, when reversed into what is not the normal lay of them the signal is shown as turnout in accord with the type of signal indication.

Cabramatta is different today owing to the way the track was rearranged some years back, with major upgrading to it.
  a6et Minister for Railways

More “practice” than “policy” (poor choice of word on my part).
As awsgc has pointed out, terminology is being confused here.
While duplication may not have actually been planned, station arrangements were generally laid out with duplication in mind.
The “Through and Platform” arrangement was often adopted at major locations where the station was on the Up side.
NSWRcars

I would not dispute that the platforms were built on the upside, but many were also built on the down side, & if you take a look at the township orientation to the station, the primary side was usually (not always) on the side that the station was built on.

Go away from the north & look to the western line in the areas of single line working & you will see again where the main part of the township has the station on that side of the line.  Blayney, Orange, Wellington, Dubbo, Narromine, Nevetire, Trangie, Nyngan.  Even the small stops like Nashdale, Borenore Molong, Manildra, Parkes, Condo & through to BH.  Some of them on the up side but mostly on the down side.

The other aspect to consider in this is the safety reasons behind it. Few stations on single lines had overhead pedestrian bridges, none really where only the single platform existed however, all stations had ground level pedestrian crossings as well as road crossings in the vast majority of areas, for those who lived on the other side, but compared to the primary town it was negligible. Thus on safety grounds, even though people back then did the road crossing lookout to see if anything was coming, it was best to have the station on the town side to reduce unnecessary public access across lines.  

There were of course variations & exceptions to that, & they can be found in places on the south, such as Culcairn, where the station is on the down side with the town on the up side.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.