Sneaky' two-hour myki change buys you less travel time from Sunday

 
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Two-hour myki fares will be crunched on Sunday to exactly two hours' duration from when a passenger touches on, giving Victorians less travel time before they must pay more for an all-day fare.
Currently, two-hour fares expire at the end of the hour, meaning a ticket can last as long as two hours and 59 minutes.
Public Transport Victoria posted a note on its website on Friday morning but has made no other public announcement, sparking accusations that it has not given the public proper warning of the important change.  
Sunday also marks the start of on-the-spot fines, when fare evaders can pay $75 immediately or be slugged $217.

"We feel that as a matter of courtesy to Victorians there should have been at least a week's notice given," Dr Morton said.
Public Transport Users Association president Tony Morton said the authority was being "sneaky".  

"They have found it's ready to roll out so they want to do it as soon as possible, but really for the sake of giving a week's notice rather than two days' notice the extra revenue they would get from that is negligible."
The Napthine government announced the impending fare change in December, but its introduction, which was originally scheduled for July, was delayed because the myki ticketing system was not prepared.  
Dr Morton predicted many people would be caught out from Sunday, and said this could have easily been avoided had the authority spread the word properly.  
"There should have been more of an awareness campaign," he said.  
"It's just a little bit sneaky and it doesn't give public transport users a good feeling about how the system is supposed to operate on their behalf when these kind of changes are rolled out under the radar."  
A Public Transport Victoria spokesman said the authority had alerted people on July 1 that the fare change would happen in August.
"On July 1 this year, PTV published on its website that two-hour myki fares would commence in August," he said.

"PTV published information on its website today to remind customers of this change which comes into effect on Sunday."

A full fare two-hour zone one ticket costs $3.58; a zone one-and-two ticket costs $6.06. A full fare all-day ticket costs $7.16 in zone one; $12.12 in zones one and two.
Dr Morton said the Public Transport Users Association opposed the change because it would make the system less user-friendly.
"We think it's a bad move mainly because it means that people travelling in the daytime on a two-hour fare will have virtually no idea of when their fare is going to expire," he said.

Read more: [color=#003399][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sneaky-twohour-myki-change-buys-you-less-travel-time-from-sunday-20140808-101uzh.html#ixzz39nlCc1bU[/font][/color]


Confused Great notice given by PTV by fare changes!

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  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
It's hardly sneaky, Melbtrip. The change was publicised months ago. Even I knew about it and commented on it somewhere in the Myki thread.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
This is sneaky since it does not provide a buffer for cancelled or late running trains.

Best when in Melbourne now I not touch in until the train is approaching.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
This is sneaky since it does not provide a buffer for cancelled or late running trains.

Best when in Melbourne now I not touch in until the train is approaching.
freightgate


Good point Bill.  The extra time currently provided for weekday services and also until this news article Sunday services was I thought for events just like you describe.

Will the tightening of the 2 hour rule actually influence the above behavior given you can waiting much longer for a train on a Sunday than you would for a weekday service.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
This is sneaky since it does not provide a buffer for cancelled or late running trains.

Best when in Melbourne now I not touch in until the train is approaching.
freightgate

Isn't it true that if you touch on before the two hours is up, you don't get charged regardless of how late the train is?
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Sunday travel is capped at $6.00 so nothing much has really changed, and if the parasites and bludgers can afford to pay the on-the-spot fine of $75.00 then they can afford to pay the normal cheaper fare, NO SYMPATHY form me............
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Sunday travel is capped at $6.00 so nothing much has really changed, and if the parasites and bludgers can afford to pay the on-the-spot fine of $75.00 then they can afford to pay the normal cheaper fare, NO SYMPATHY form me............
trainbrain

On spot penalty fare of $75 – If the state goverment are going to copy overseas systems and then you copy it fully.
It my understanding PTV copy London underground plenty fare and which is the following:
The penalty fare is £80. This will be reduced to £40 if you pay within 21 days. If you don't pay within 21
days, we may take further action. - https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/penalties-and-enforcement

But sadly: the current state government changes how person pays the penalty fare by forcing them pay
on the spot.

This has effects by disadvantages no well off for example (disabled, people not financially well off) by
the following:

  • Subject them to higher fine

  • Forcing them to make decisions when they can’t access to legal advice before hand.



The state government must look at what they do in London – by allowing the person to pay the
penalty fare at later date for example at staff station and by doing this you get the following:

  • Record who is cheating the system

  • People can get legal advice on the matter




Other note: Police issue on the spot fines for example: speeding

But a person does not pay the fine right there on the spot and the person has time get legal advice
about the fine or do the following: Pay the penalty (or apply to pay by installments), Request an internal
review or Elect to go to court over that matter. -http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=10366

The same thing should happen here when a person is given an on the spot fine or on spot penalty fare when travelling on public
transport for example travelling without valid fare.

Other Problems - If person loses their credit card or has their Credit card stolen and person has their card misused by the person
to pay their on spot penalty fare, without any record who used it.

If there was some record of the person who got the on spot penalty fare and then Police can track them down and in this case change them with credit card fault.

Or at lease do not have touch and go and make people enter a pin when paying a on spot penalty fare.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
On spot penalty fare of $75 – If the state goverment are going to copy overseas systems and then you copy it fully.
It my understanding PTV copy London underground plenty fare and which is the following:
The penalty fare is £80. This will be reduced to £40 if you pay within 21 days. If you don't pay within 21
days, we may take further action. - https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/penalties-and-enforcement

But sadly: the current state government changes how person pays the penalty fare by forcing them pay on the spot.

This has effects by disadvantages no well off for example (disabled, people not financially well off) by
the following:

  • Subject them to higher fine

  • Forcing them to make decisions when they can’t access to legal advice before hand.



The state government must look at what they do in London – by allowing the person to pay the
penalty fare at later date for example at staff station and by doing this you get the following:

  • Record who is cheating the system

  • People can get legal advice on the matter




Other note: Police issue on the spot fines for example: speeding

But a person does not pay the fine right there on the spot and the person has time get legal advice
about the fine or do the following: Pay the penalty (or apply to pay by installments), Request an internal
review or Elect to go to court over that matter. -http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=10366

The same thing should happen here when a person is given an on the spot fine or on spot penalty fare when travelling on public
transport for example travelling without valid fare.

Other Problems - If person loses their credit card or has their Credit card stolen and person has their card misused by the person
to pay their on spot penalty fare, without any record who used it.

If there was some record of the person who got the on spot penalty fare and then Police can track them down and in this case change them with credit card fault.

Or at lease do not have touch and go and make people enter a pin when paying a on spot penalty fare.
melbtrip

Unless you and I have two different sources of information, the Government is NOT forcing people to pay the $75 fine. Either the person receiving the fine pays the LOWER on-the-spot fine, or pays the usual fine as per usual. Nowhere have I seen the word force being used anywhere.

You know what the moral of your post is?????
Don't break the law in the first place. Pure and Simple. That way, people will avoid whatever fines the Government choose to implement.
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
Isn't it true that if you touch on before the two hours is up, you don't get charged regardless of how late the train is?
railblogger

I have made the choice to not catch a tram that I can see coming, and which will arrive just after a new clock hour, to touch on at a station before the end of an hour, and wait for a train that comes later, to save a new two hour fare being charged.  This approach won't work under the new system.  I will do as has been suggested and wait until I can see the train approach before I touch on.

Can any one explain what happens when a journey (say Stony Point to Fern Tree Gully) takes longer than 2 hours to reach its destination ?  I am sure that I attempted something like this once and the system did not want me to clock off because of the 'excessive time'.

It is a shame when an expected  service is cancelled that I might have to pay another fare under this new system.

On the issue of on the spot fines, under the new system, you can pay the fine and remain anonymous. This can help them resolve the challenge if they are not carrying sufficient ID and do not want to go into detention while this is being sorted out.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
If you have to pay the fine using a credit/debit card of some sort how do you remain anonymous?

I have 'anonymous' MYKI cards as I don't see what it has to do with the government or anyone else where or when I travel.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
If a journey, perhaps a return trip to somewhere, can normally and according to the timetable be completed in less that two hours, but happens to take longer than two hours because of some kind of holdup beyond my control (even if I don't touch on until I see the train coming). why should I be penalised?  Is there an appeal process?  And if there is, is it worth doing?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
You will not win and if you do it will not have been worth the effort.
The extra time that has been available until now has 'compensated' (if that is the word) for cancellations, late running, skipping stations etc which are endemic.
If the ticketing system is to be by the minute so should services.
Two other issues are the accuracy of MYKI readers timewise and also station clocks both of which are suspect on occasions.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Either the person receiving the fine pays the LOWER on-the-spot fine, or pays the usual fine as per usual. Nowhere have I seen the word force being used anywhere.
xxxxlbear

I reckon a lot of regular fare evaders will be clapping their hands together at the prospect of the $75 on the spot fine - it makes the risk even more worthwhile because the punishment is significantly lowered. I don't fare evade but if I was caught out somehow I'd probably take the option of a full report because your chances of getting off are really good if you can demonstrate some kind of myki fault (so I've heard), PTV apparently don't have much confidence about their ticketing system meeting any kind of competent legal challenge.

Anyway, I don't see this new strategy reducing fare evasion.

Example: Zone One full fare 1 month = $136.40. You'd have to be caught twice a month for the cost of the fines to exceed the cost of the fares. Yearly pass = $1430.00; you'd have to be caught 19 times for the fines to exceed the fares. If you are an occasional user, take short trips or someone who simply can't be bothered paying then a much lower penalty fare is probably going to embolden you.  In their press releases they say it will free up ticket inspector time to process many more fines but in reality I think it will probably lead to corruption ("I don't have money on my EFTPOS card but if I give you $20 will you go away?").
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
If a journey, perhaps a return trip to somewhere, can normally and according to the timetable be completed in less that two hours, but happens to take longer than two hours because of some kind of holdup beyond my control (even if I don't touch on until I see the train coming). why should I be penalised? Is there an appeal process? And if there is, is it worth doing?
Lad_Porter

This happens to me regularly, busting a gut to try and get home again before the two hour period expires but late-running buses nearly always conspire against me. There is nothing at all you can do about that - you have to wear a penalty fare (basically) if your bus runs late and you can't complete the journey within two hours.
  simeyau Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sunbury, Victoria
Actually I am not sure why everyone is so concerned about the 2 hour fare. As it has always been, the 2 hours goes on having touched on not when you touch off. As was always the case, if you touch on within the 2 hours you are still allowed to finish your journey. This is straight from the ptv website:

Two-hour fares on myki have been adjusted to last for exactly two hours.


The two-hour fare is still valid for multiple trips as long as you touch on before the expiry time.
  simeyau Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sunbury, Victoria
On spot penalty fare of $75 – If the state goverment are going to copy overseas systems and then you copy it fully.
It my understanding PTV copy London underground plenty fare and which is the following:
The penalty fare is £80. This will be reduced to £40 if you pay within 21 days. If you don't pay within 21
days, we may take further action. - https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/penalties-and-enforcement

But sadly: the current state government changes how person pays the penalty fare by forcing them pay
on the spot.

This has effects by disadvantages no well off for example (disabled, people not financially well off) by
the following:

  • Subject them to higher fine

  • Forcing them to make decisions when they can’t access to legal advice before hand.



The state government must look at what they do in London – by allowing the person to pay the
penalty fare at later date for example at staff station and by doing this you get the following:

  • Record who is cheating the system

  • People can get legal advice on the matter




Other note: Police issue on the spot fines for example: speeding

But a person does not pay the fine right there on the spot and the person has time get legal advice
about the fine or do the following: Pay the penalty (or apply to pay by installments), Request an internal
review or Elect to go to court over that matter. -http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=10366

The same thing should happen here when a person is given an on the spot fine or on spot penalty fare when travelling on public
transport for example travelling without valid fare.

Other Problems - If person loses their credit card or has their Credit card stolen and person has their card misused by the person
to pay their on spot penalty fare, without any record who used it.

If there was some record of the person who got the on spot penalty fare and then Police can track them down and in this case change them with credit card fault.

Or at lease do not have touch and go and make people enter a pin when paying a on spot penalty fare.
melbtrip

The answer is easy melbtrip..just don;t fare evade and there is no issue. I am sorry but if people want to take the risk of fare evading they should pay the fine. What is unfair about them being offered a cheaper alternative on the spot??

As for credit card fraud related to paying on the spot fines...it is no different to any other type of credit card fraud.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Actually I am not sure why everyone is so concerned about the 2 hour fare. As it has always been, the 2 hours goes on having touched on not when you touch off. As was always the case, if you touch on within the 2 hours you are still allowed to finish your journey. This is straight from the ptv website:

Two-hour fares on myki have been adjusted to last for exactly two hours.


The two-hour fare is still valid for multiple trips as long as you touch on before the expiry time.
simeyau

I don't understand this - how can you "touch on within the 2 hours" or "touch on before the expiry time"?  Where I have highlighted "touch on" above, should it really read "touch off"? If so, the concern is valid.

And it is no longer "as it has always been".
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I don't understand this - how can you "touch on within the 2 hours" or "touch on before the expiry time"? Where I have highlighted "touch on" above, should it really read "touch off"? If so, the concern is valid.
Lad_Porter

No, because this assumes you have already touched off.
  michaelgreenhill Administrator That's Numberwang!

Location: Melbourne
If you have to pay the fine using a credit/debit card of some sort how do you remain anonymous?
YM-Mundrabilla
How do you expect to remain anonymous with an off-the-spot fine payment, given that they take your name, address and contact details?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I reckon a lot of regular fare evaders will be clapping their hands together at the prospect of the $75 on the spot fine
don_dunstan

And those who don't already.  I thought the same when I heard it.


For someone avoiding the inner city they'd probably find it cheaper just keeping $75 in their wallet than using myki.


In their press releases they say it will free up ticket inspector time to process many more fines but in reality I think it will probably lead to corruption ("I don't have money on my EFTPOS card but if I give you $20 will you go away?").
don_dunstan

This too.
  simeyau Locomotive Fireman

Location: Sunbury, Victoria
I don't understand this - how can you "touch on within the 2 hours" or "touch on before the expiry time"? Where I have highlighted "touch on" above, should it really read "touch off"? If so, the concern is valid.

And it is no longer "as it has always been".
Lad_Porter

Touch on means touching on a subsequent time within 2 hours (ie multi trip)

You have always been allowed to finish a trip once commenced as long as started within that period. This information is lifted directly from the PTV website

The following is directly quoted from the PTV website:

Do I get charged for another 2-hours if I touch off after the expiry time?
No. Your Myki ticket is valid as long as you touch on at a station, or board the tram or bus, before the expiry time.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Good news then. So if you touch on at Melton and travel to stony point you will only be charged for 2 hours ?
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Good news then. So if you touch on at Melton and travel to stony point you will only be charged for 2 hours ?
freightgate

That's the way I have interpreted it. If you change platforms at the one station (Flinders St, Museum etc without leaving the station), then I would expect Melton to Stony Point to be a 2 hour Myki tickets. The only way this could come unstuck is if you catch a train from Melton, or Belgrave, or indeed Healesville, and have to change to a Stony Point bus at Frankston....the trip to Frankston would take more than 2 hours, so you will get your 2 hour ticket for the trip, but what happens if you are made to touch off to exit the station, and then touch back on for the bus trip to Stony Point?

Same thing happens in reverse. Travelling to Healesville from Frankston. Does the mere act of touching off at Lilydale (thereby creating a 2 hour ticket), and touching back on on the bus convert that 2 hour ticket to a daily? Confused
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Extract of the thought processes going on in a PTV meeting: "There's no way on this earth that a single trip could possibly ever take more than 2 hours. Let's limit it to exactly 2 hours and not tell anyone how they will be charged if it happens."
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Extract of the thought processes going on in a PTV meeting: "There's no way on this earth that a single trip could possibly ever take more than 2 hours. Let's limit it to exactly 2 hours and not tell anyone how they will be charged if it happens."
Madjikthise

A bus trip from Frankston to Melbourne Airport  takes 4 hours and 13 mins

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