New Free Public Transport Group in Victoria

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
This group appears to have just launched itself.

http://www.freept.com.au/

We need 500 people to sign this petition to help make Free Public Transport in Victoria a reality.

As a balance of power group, we have the capacity to make REAL change. If you want to register to join
our fight for Free Public Transport on our state owned Trains, Trams & Buses, please register below.

We are also on the lookout for potential upper & lower house candidates that share our passion & views.
Prospective individuals should email freept@mail.com to express their expression of interest.



Anyone know who is behind these guys?

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  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Usual group of thoughtless nutters - public transport is already heavily subsidised, yet they want to push the subsidy even higher.

It's also heavily discriminatory against those in, or needing to access, poor public transport areas.

Why should the zone1+2 CBD commuter with be handed a $2000+p.a. bonus on top of their existing PT subsidisation benefit whilst an industrial worker in a region with no PT gets nothing?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Free Question All over Victoria Question


Seems like a bunch of nutters to me.

Anything that's 'free' has no respect from the public due to its 'free' nature. The MX evening paper is the perfect example.

If PT were free, the vandalism on METRO services would be even worse than it is now.

Mike.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Kind of thoughtless if you ask me.

The system needs more revenue, not less.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What does it cost to maintain the ticket system including support cards and enforcement fines and machines including damage ?

Millions and millions per annum.

Not to forget the bean counters who are also employed as could be removed.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
What does it cost to maintain the ticket system including support cards and enforcement fines and machines including damage ?

Millions and millions per annum.

Not to forget the bean counters who are also employed as could be removed.
freightgate

What about the cost of running the service?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The cost if running the service would drop if ticketing was removed. The overhead of managing the ticket system andyki etc would not be there.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The cost if running the service would drop if ticketing was removed. The overhead of managing the ticket system andyki etc would not be there.
freightgate

But it would still be money lost, wouldn't it?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Having a free network would mean saving money on ticketing. This is my point.

So what is the difference between a fixed cost to run the network with no ticketing in terms of subsidy verses ticketing and the ticketing overhead with revenue ?

I think it would be marginal.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Having a free network would mean saving money on ticketing. This is my point.

So what is the difference between a fixed cost to run the network with no ticketing in terms of subsidy verses ticketing and the ticketing overhead with revenue ?

I think it would be marginal.
freightgate

The difference is that you get an income to use to pay these costs (and for improvement projects) instead of using more taxpayers' money to run the system.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
How about people read the PTV, etc. annual reports before making stupid claims.

The income from ticketing far outweighs the costs of administering it.

And if it didn't, that would be an argument for raising fares, not removing them.
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
Think of a "single issue" that might get some proportion of impulsive "vote 1 above the line" primary votes in an upper house election.  Collect 500 signatures from people who think that single issue is a great idea, and register a political party.  Easy!  When the election comes around, register an above-the-line preference distribution for that new political party that lists some other more substantial party, not really related to the single issue, as number two (or three or four, as long as the higher preference parties are minor it doesn't really matter).

At election time, a few "lazy" people see your catchy issue and write one next to your party name above the line.  The number of primary votes is small, so fairly early on in the upper house voting process that new single issue party is eliminated.  Those who have voted for that party above the line then have their vote follow the registered preference distribution, which means eventually their vote gets tallied against the more substantial party.

Towards the end of the upper house elimination process a few votes can make an enormous difference to the candidates fighting it out for the last spot.  Look at what happened in the last federal election.  Similarly, in the federal arena, one or two extra friendly upper house members can (or could) have made an enormous difference to a government.

I might be completely off mark here, and perhaps the people behind this site are all very well meaning about their pet topic (though, in general, I think it an utterly moronic idea, likely to doom public transport to mediocrity for generations), but the complete lack of detail on their site (history of the organisation? current office holders? news of campaigning other than this petition? material supporting their point of view?) makes me highly suspicious.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
How about people read the PTV, etc. annual reports before making stupid claims.

The income from ticketing far outweighs the costs of administering it.

And if it didn't, that would be an argument for raising fares, not removing them.
ZH836301

It's also an argument for increasing income and, perhaps, also reducing long-term costs.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
My simple solution for a free public transport system: tax every tax payer according to postcode.
For example,
$3 inner city residents
$2 outer suburban and major regional centre residents with Myki in use (Geelong, Ballarat etc).
$1 everywhere else.
and perhaps people on welfare $1 a f/night from their payments.
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
How would such a tax be levied?
State Govts cannot levy income taxes, so any tax based on  a persons income would be unconstitutional.
Are you proposing some sort of land tax?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
My simple solution for a free public transport system: tax every tax payer according to postcode.
For example,
$3 inner city residents
$2 outer suburban and major regional centre residents with Myki in use (Geelong, Ballarat etc).
$1 everywhere else.
and perhaps people on welfare $1 a f/night from their payments.
xxxxlbear



That is actually not a bad idea.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
How would such a tax be levied?
State Govts cannot levy income taxes, so any tax based on a persons income would be unconstitutional.
Are you proposing some sort of land tax?
MD

I was thinking of personal income tax each week/fortnight, but I guess it could be included with council rates, and paid monthly, 6 monthly, or annually. Anyway, it was just an idea.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The problem with that is income tax is a federal system, has nothing to do with the state government.

One simple thing comes to mind, You pay for what you get! if nobody is paying anything, than what would stop the government stripping back services when it came time to trim the budget?

Seriously daft idea.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
The problem with that is income tax is a federal system, has nothing to do with the state government.

One simple thing comes to mind, You pay for what you get! if nobody is paying anything, than what would stop the government stripping back services when it came time to trim the budget?

Seriously daft idea.
Gman_86

I was just wondering if it was workable or not. All you had to say was 'no' instead of calling my idea stupid.
  gxh Junior Train Controller

Location: SE suburbs
My simple solution for a free public transport system: tax every tax payer according to postcode.
For example,
$3 inner city residents
$2 outer suburban and major regional centre residents with Myki in use (Geelong, Ballarat etc).
$1 everywhere else.
and perhaps people on welfare $1 a f/night from their payments.
xxxxlbear

And free for visitors?
  MD Chief Commissioner

Location: Canbera
The main problems with ideas like these , is that they arnt thought through properly.
What defines public transport?
Would privately operated bus networks be included?
If not, then the tax system is discriminating against people who rely on private busses to get around.
Would country trains be included?
Would these include the XPT and GSRs trains.
The entire idea becomes an administrative nightmare to operate.
Are airlines public transport.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

What does it cost to maintain the ticket system including support cards and enforcement fines and machines including damage ?

Millions and millions per annum.

Not to forget the bean counters who are also employed as could be removed.

Sorry Freightgate

The above arguments, including putting people out of work to permit free transport is disingenuous at best and a stupid and daft idea at worse. What is it with we Australians? We want the best and expect premium service but are not willing to pay for it. The problem is that fare payers on average is contributing less than 30 cents to every $1 towards Operating costs. In London commuters contribute 90 pence to every $1. The point is that commuters should pay more. A $15 return fare to Bendigo some 180 km away is very cheap indeed. Removing fares is just less money going in to Public Transport because the State Government is not going to make up the Shortfall through increase in levies such as Land Tax (and they shouldn't)and Income Tax is a Federal Tax.

Michael
freightgate
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

"We need 500 people to sign this petition to help make Free Public Transport in Victoria a reality.

As a balance of power group, we have the capacity to make REAL change. If you want to register to join
our fight for Free Public Transport on our state owned Trains, Trams & Buses, please register below.

We are also on the lookout for potential upper & lower house candidates that share our passion & views.
Prospective individuals should email [color=#0066cc][size=3][font='Open Sans', Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]freept@mail.com[/font][/size][/color] to express their expression of interest."




Well that idea will NOT be getting my vote. The submitter here has absolutely no idea of how PT is run in Vic. Met Trains, Trams and Buses are run as Franchises by Private Companies, and from what I am hearing V/Line will also go the same way.


Any commuters should contribute more towards Operating Costs of PT not less or nothing




Michael
  donttellmywife Chief Commissioner

Location: Antofagasta
My simple solution for a free public transport system: tax every tax payer according to postcode.
xxxxlbear

Why not just tax those that use public transport?  Far easier to administer and there are lots of users - so a nice broad base for the tax - sharing the burden and all that jazz.  So the idea would be that every time someone wants to use public transport, they need to pay a tax.  The more they use it, the more tax they pay.  To help sell the idea give the taxes a catchy name - perhaps something like "Funding a Really Excellent Service".  That's a bit wordy - so just use the acronym - FARES.

Then you can say "All public transport is free - what we do instead is pay for it through our FARES".

After payment of your FARE, the authorities will give you documentation acknowledging your Tax In Consideration of some Kind of Expected Travel, or TICKET.  In this modern age that documentation might be electronic.  Travelling without a TICKET?  Then be prepared to be charged with tax (FARE) evasion.

One of the last things that public transport needs is less revenue.  One of the last things that public transport needs is to further weaken the connection between what its users value and what it delivers.  One of the last things that society needs is a signal to people that society is happy to pay for their decision to travel long distances on a regular basis.  The idea is just daft.

(There's no real constitutional reason stopping States from charging income tax and they used to do just that pre WW2.  There might be consequences for the state in terms of a federal-state funding response from the feds, but the feds can't stop them, bar the limitation that individuals have to pay federal income taxes in priority to any state income tax.)
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
The main problems with ideas like these , is that they arnt thought through properly.
1. What defines public transport?
2. Would privately operated bus networks be included?
If not, then the tax system is discriminating against people who rely on private busses to get around.
3. Would country trains be included?
4. Would these include the XPT and GSRs trains.
The entire idea becomes an administrative nightmare to operate.
Are airlines public transport.
MD

Jeez, don't take this so seriously. It was just an idea Rolling Eyes

To answer your points:
1. Trains, buses, ferries, trams used to move the public around (passenger transport service) for a fee, or fare, for service.
2. As they are today, yes.
3. Of course. Why would I have suggested a levy or tax if rural residents weren't to be included?
4. No, as they aren't included in V/Line fares, so for the same reasons, the answer is no.
As for your last sentence, which I presume is a question, yes I guess you can call airlines public transport. Car pooling and modes of transport (train, tram, ferry, tram) hired out for private use are not public transport whilst engaging in that hiring.

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