Port of Geelong - Underutilised?

 
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
The same facility in Bunbury is all road hauled sadly

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  woodford Chief Commissioner

A very late response, sorry.......

The channel depth of 55 ft for Portland came from the operators of the silo's at the port, they stated they were at the time (mid 1970's, I think) getting vessels with a loaded draught of 50 ft, into the grain berth. It seems the port has deteriorated since that time.

woodford
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The same facility in Bunbury is all road hauled sadly
Trainplanner


Is the Bunbury facility adjacent to a rail line?

The Geelong facility has a line running close by.  It is hard to tell exactly where it will be placed but I would imagine between the Midway yard and Corio?
  Bulbous Assistant Commissioner

Is the Bunbury facility adjacent to a rail line?
bevans


The facility is next to the line that used to run out to the old grain silos on the foreshore, and where the woodchips trains used to unload from Manjimup. The issue is that the Bunbury facility for Bunge is being fed by the large landholdings that Bunge have in the Wagin/Lake Grace area, and the trains would have to head to Bunbury via Northam and Perth. The latest Regional Freight plan from the government in WA has noted that there are four lines that should be looked at during the next five years for possible re-instatement, including the Narrogin to Collie line and the Wagin to Collie line, which would shorten the haul for train immensely.

Considering that Bunge are talking the possibilty of moving more than 2 million tonnes through Bunbury in the future, and that the Coalfields Highway is getting large amounts of cash spent on it under the project heading of 'Bunge Grain Task', it should show where the current expenditure will remain.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

So the Port of Geelong has a 11.7m maximum draught for ships.  What would it take to deepen it, and would this be enough to make development of Hastings and the ALP proposal for Point Cook/Point Wilson redundant?

Surprisingly for the HeraldSun, there is an article on a recent Vic University study suggesting that Hastings Port development will be a disaster:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria-state-election-2014/gridlock-to-hit-busy-monash-freeway-and-ring-road-if-port-of-hastings-becomes-container-port/story-fnocxssc-1227037913699
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Shipping channels leading to The Port of Geelong are already heavily dredged, to deepen them further would be very expensive and "politically impossible". (Code for the Greenies would kick up a massive stink and politically damage whichever party was in government.)

The idea for a new port in the Werribee - Manor area is attractively located for land transport (close to major trucking depots and a rail line which should have spare capacity after RRL is opened), however it has the fatal flaw that the western side of Port Phillip is ultra shallow for many km offshore. (Have a look at the key maps up the front of your Melways for water depths.) To even get 15 metre draught shipping berths, a landfill groin similar to Webb Dock would need to be built 5 or 6 km into the bay, in addition to extensive large scale dredging of a channel leading to these wharves. The landfill groin alone would costs tens of billions of dollars. So sadly, any cost/ benefit study will show that no port could ever be built on the western part of Port Phillip as it would cost many times as much as Hastings and still not fix the problem of limited clearance and the need for pilots through The Rip.

So as difficult as enlarging the port at Hastings would be, there is no realistic alternative anywhere in Victoria closer to Melbourne than Portland.
  BBattarbee Station Staff

Location: Morphett Vale
Today's ships are very large. As Bogong warns a sand free port is difficult. The water may be deep enough on the eastern side of Port Phillip Bay, possibly near Dromana up to Mornington.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ship_measurements_comparison.svg#mediaviewer/File:Ship_measurements_comparison.svg

Suezmax needs a draft over 20 Meters.

Even the channel in to Port Phillip Bay may need dredging.
  waynes Junior Train Controller

Location: Victoria
Makes you wonder if no rail is involved in the new development at Corio North? how could the council have approved the development?

The roads are congested through there now.
  BBattarbee Station Staff

Location: Morphett Vale
Many of Australia's ports have around 12.4 Meters draft. Panamax ships of 60K Deadweight tonnes to 80K Deadweight tonnes need this depth.


Most of Australia’s ports are around 12.5m draft. The Panamaxships of 60k Deadweight tonnes to 80K Deadweight tonnes need this depth.
Graincorp ports
Mackay 12.5m
Gladstone 11.3m
Pinkenba (Brisbane) 10.4m
Fisherman Island (Brisbane) 13M
Kooragang Island (Newcastle) 11.6m
Carrington (Newcastle) 11.6m
Port Kembla 16.25m
Geelong 13m
Portland 12.5m and 11.5m

The Victorian Regional Channels is maintaining Geelong at 12.3m
http://www.regionalchannels.vic.gov.au/index.php/component/content/article/22-other/dredging-2014/97-geelong-dredging
A bulk port is a major commitment for a State or community, as it requires appropriate transport connections.
In today's conservative time, a port relies upon its merits.
To set up a port willy-nilly could be a very wasteful process, so balance is required.
The use of the port and its task needs to be matched to potential channel depth and cost to maintain, and access to satisfactory transport.
Geelong has the advantage over the Port of Hastings that it has good rail connections, though the both seem to have limitations with channel depth for future expansion.
Victoria will just have to make do, with what it has got.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
The way Port of Melbourne is heading in its very hard line commercial stance in renewing contracts that are leading to a loss of business we may not need this added capacity. Since late June the former land bridge service out of Adelaide that at one stage was two services per day has gone because of increased port fees and very shortly the hugely successful Visy/QUBE traffic from Harefield is going to Port Botany for the same reason. In addition to increased port fees there are indications that Port of Melbourne is not as pro rail as Port Botany.
  QSB6.7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Going off the rails on a crazy train.
Makes you wonder if no rail is involved in the new development at Corio North? how could the council have approved the development?

The roads are congested through there now.
waynes

Council make odd proposals in regards to rail.  I have a feeling that they have no idea.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Is there a rail connection currently to the site ?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Is there a rail connection currently to the site ?
freightgate

Any rail use to the new terminal would have to be via a new unloading facility on the existing grain loop.

No way In this day and age would shunting of dead end sidings be used to unload grain wagons.
  K-Class Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Any rail use to the new terminal would have to be via a new unloading facility on the existing grain loop.

No way In this day and age would shunting of dead end sidings be used to unload grain wagons.
Nightfire

It does sound silly to open a new terminal that is not a unloading balloon loop but there are a number of grain terminals in use currently that are dead end sidings. The old SACBH terminal at Port Adelaide is still used as a secondary unloading site and I believe one of the unloading sites in Sydney is dead end sidings also.

So this would not prevent the dead end sidings being used especially if it is planned to be a smaller export location than the main outloader in Geelong.

Matt
  gomer Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Portland is a dead end and plenty of grain has gone through there.
  QSB6.7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Going off the rails on a crazy train.
Is there a rail connection currently to the site ?
freightgate

-38.102451, 144.365882  are the co-ords for the site we are talking about.
The rail line was used to unload logs.
There is talk about an SSR service to also use this line but it seems to have gone quiet.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Portland is a dead end and plenty of grain has gone through there.
gomer


There are still dead end signings at the Graincorp facility at North Geelong.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It does sound silly to open a new terminal that is not a unloading balloon loop but there are a number of grain terminals in use currently that are dead end sidings. The old SACBH terminal at Port Adelaide is still used as a secondary unloading site and I believe one of the unloading sites in Sydney is dead end sidings also.

So this would not prevent the dead end sidings being used especially if it is planned to be a smaller export location than the main outloader in Geelong.

Matt
K-Class

Their all old setups from the days when hoppers wagons were first Introduced.

The roll rail plays In the grain transport has changed or Is continuing to change.
Grain trains are now only becoming to be used In the movement of grain between super Inland terminals to port terminals using fixed size wagon rakes/sets (like 40 wagons)

The change In grain marketing Is seeing a lot of on farm storage and deals done to sell small quantities of grain among growers, marketers and customers, all mostly NOT rail contestable (this new terminal would mostly be capitalising on this new trend of small volume deliveries)        

At major Inland grain terminals, grain train operators would be looking at rapid turnarounds to maximise the utilisation of their trains, so they would be very reluctant to break up their trains Into short rakes to shunt Into loading and unloading sidings.

Geelong grain loop has the edge In Victoria, that the whole train does a U turn and stays In one.

Not sure how long the grain sidings are at Appleton Dock, as to If a full size train can be unloaded without splitting.

Portland on the other hand needs a lot of shunting to unload trains at It's terminal.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Geez. How lazy have the railways become. Obviously shunting a few wagons or allowing the customer to do so might get in the way lunch.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Geez. How lazy have the railways become. Obviously shunting a few wagons or allowing the customer to do so might get in the way lunch.
freightgate

If you have not noticed already, that's the way things are going.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Rubbish. Only in Australia.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Rubbish. Only in Australia.
freightgate

Yes Australia

You just wait to 2 unit road trains (11 axel) are running around all the State Highways In Eastern and Southern Australia
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Rubbish. Only in Australia.
freightgate

Only in Australia we'd think about stopping a mainline train to try and drop off wagons whilst on the main line. Everywhere else they'd park the train in a yard, then split it up and ferry it off using a smaller and "newer" locomotive than what we'd have on hand.

The main problem we have is rail is competitive in bulk, not small movements.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Only in Australia we'd think about stopping a mainline train to try and drop off wagons whilst on the main line. Everywhere else they'd park the train in a yard, then split it up and ferry it off using a smaller and "newer" locomotive than what we'd have on hand.

The main problem we have is rail is competitive in bulk, not small movements.
speedemon08


would sct agree with that comment?
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
I reckon both Geelong and Portland should be moving in the very near future to the use of balloon loops, a quick efficient/smart method of unloading a train, not lazy, Bill.
I think most balloon loops around 400 metres in diameter, someone can correct that, if wrong.
Hopefully GrainCorp are moving towards this with their up coming upgrades. It would also mean an extension of trains, could happen, say to 60 wagons, to try and improve some efficiency, until some genius does some work on axle loading.
Its a fare hike from the Rock, Oaklands and where ever else in the southern Riverina as well as the Mallee, might as well make the trip worth while.
Bigger trucks, I reckon there could be smarter use of trucks for the movement of grain, but don't start that one.

BigShunter.

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