Decommissioning of the 2000 Class Railcars

 
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Don. What you have written is what people said back in the late 1990's, when the "Red hens" were been totally withdrawn. Now people want to ride in them. SteamRanger and the NRM use them very successfully and they aren't aircond or heated.
"BB 260"

And this is probably a big part of the reason. The changes from first generation DMUs of the 1950s to the second generation DMUs from the mid-1970s onwards were significant and very obvious to passengers, but the differences between second generation units and third/fourth generation units are mostly under the hood with very little visible to passengers.

Improved crash structures, better efficiency, advanced safeworking systems and computer control are great for the purpose of operating a real railway system, but they are not going to get bums on seats for heritage operators - people go to see and ride old trains that look and feel like old trains!

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  ARG706 Chief Commissioner

Location: SA
Restoring any preserved ones to their original appearance/interior with original seats might give them a chance of being more appealing to potential passengers. Their exhaust smell reminds me of the Red Hens. The original please mind the gap/3000 class don't have much resemblance to the STA days at all, after being refurbished in the 2000s.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
This will make me popular.

NRM use them very successfully and they aren't aircond or heated.
BB 260

Now that is a bit of a stretch, the NRM hardly use them, and the success of the use is debatable.

SteamRanger use them very successfully and they aren't aircond or heated.
BB 260

I will almost agree that this is true. SteamRanger use them very successfully to avoid running steam, which is probably why I have only been on SteamRanger rides three times (1x F trip, 1x Rx trip and 1x 620 trip) since 520 was taken out of action.

people go to see and ride old trains that look and feel like old trains!
justapassenger

This is close to the precise reason why I visit heritage railways. I want to see and interact with the heritage of days gone by, not ride on a cousin to what takes me to work...
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels

This is close to the precise reason why I visit heritage railways. I want to see and interact with the heritage of days gone by, not ride on a cousin to what takes me to work...
Aaron

The one and only time I may be inclined to agree with you Aaron.
But you are talking of now, the next generation of enthusiasts may think differently, even now the younger ones are keen to ride on a "old Red Hen'.
We really do have to think of the future when it comes to preservation, somewhere down the track a young enthusiast (or even an old Aaron with his grand kids) will want to be able to ride on a 'Jumbo railcar with that funny cab grandpa'.

Wayne
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
This will make me popular.


Now that is a bit of a stretch, the NRM hardly use them, and the success of the use is debatable.


Aaron

You have no idea at all Aaron the little use the NRM Red Hens get is quite successful if you have access to the number of people that actually do ride them. It is statements like this that leave you shaking your head though. The NRM is never going to get enough passengers on their Red Hens to pack out a 3 car set every trip. It would be nice, but I doubt it would ever happen though. But the number of passengers that do ride the Red Hens helps to pay some bills etc to keep on doing it though! So really you should be thankful, not taking ignorant swipes at those that are running them.

I dips my hat to those that keep the cars running though they are only volunteers, not full time employees though, so with what they have and what they do I would think it is a lot better than just letting them stand there and look good!
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Even a 4000 electric railcar will be heritage in 40 years or more as it will be replaced when needed. Stupid statements about what is and what is not heritage rile me. Today's loco and railcars might be a dime a dozen today but look to the future in say 50 years even a NR locomotive might be heritage by then. It was thought the same in 1926 as well when Webb Introduced his big locomotives the most modern and powerful types in Australia but it did not take that long for them all to virtually disappear though! Some were lost that quick that even preservation could not get examples of them. The 600 steam locomotives and the S class steam locomotives are just two examples!

Anything could be heritage in the future even the electric train you rode to work yesterday!
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

As a child growing up in Melbourne I have memories of catching the Hitachi trains, no doubt people will have have memories of the jumbos and preserving some of each type of rail car is what a rail museum is for.  Seriously Aaron who gives you the right to say what is worth keeping, I'm guessing your a baby boomer who has memories of catching the older vehicles? The jumbos hold history and many young Gen X, Y, (Z) will have memories of this, they may be bland to you Aaron but they are history and at least one set should be preserved. The jumbos are to Gen X, Y, (Z) what the redhens are to the baby boomer's.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Hosk1956: I also find myself in rare agreement with Aaron.

It takes a long time for something to become 'vintage' in the minds of the public; fair enough if you aren't going for the heritage experience but places like Pichi Richi and Maldon (VIC) have devoted a lot of time and attention in trying to create an 'authentic' experience with 19th century trains/rollingstock. Places like that wouldn't be interested in the Jumbos; not now and not any time in the future - so there's a limited market for them in retirement.

NRM will be happy to have at least one though, I'm sure.  Important to keep at least one set in preservation in SA for future generations.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
......no doubt people will have have memories of the jumbos and preserving some of each type of rail car is what a rail museum is for......The jumbos hold history ......and at least one set should be preserved.
torrens5022

I remember a Jumbo set being put on display at Spencer Street as an example of the then Labor Federal Government's plan to refurbish the railways throughout Australia. It ran from Adelaide to Melbourne under its own power and could have achieved high speeds on parts of the long run involved.

The concept was that to achieve economies of scale and the considerable saving of available funds that this would entail, a standard suburban design should be built which could be adapted to the various rail and loading gauges as well as a choice of motive power at a time when only the Melbourne and Sydney suburban systems were electrified.

In their time they were by far the most modern and comfortable cars in the country, and I still prefer riding in near silence in the front seat of a Jumbo driving trailer to any other.

The triplication of the Frankston and Dandenong lines to allow bi-directional running and overtaking was part of the same scheme. Though the state Liberal government was quick to take credit, the triplications stopped abruptly as soon as the allocated money ran out after the dismissal of the Federal government and didn't resume for many years. The sensible approach to building world class trains in Australia (and they were just that at the time) went the same way.

These cars are an important part of the Nation's (not just South Australian) history, and another example of the lost opportunities and deliberate neglect that have put us decades behind the modern railway practices of many countries which we like to think are comparable with us.

A fraction of the money that has been spent on subsidising the road transport industry competition would have made a great deal of difference, but ideologies will need to change if we are ever to catch up on some of the backlog. I don't expect ever to see that happen.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

The most interesting thing about the Jumbos is their history.

Without wishing to denigrate camels which are excellent for their purpose, (Without camels we would have no Ghan) the 2000's are really a train designed by a committee.

The then STA called tenders for something they did not appear to understand, see the sketches, and neither did the tenderers. Ultimately the builder came up with a hybrid and we have the 2000s. They are grossly overweight for the number of passengers and equally underpowered. At the time US commuter railways were either EMUs or loco operated push-pull. It is interesting in the US, the bastion of the auto, how many cities are using push-pull and even providing new vehicles.

I recall  my first trips in a 2000 and how comfortable they were compared to the Red Hens, they were two quantum leaps in comfort and one step back in speed.

(OT Nothing beats an 800 diesel with 7 ECLs on the 5:45 to Hallett Cove. The 800s had plenty of grunt for acceleration and I was once on a overload steam train to Willunga when 621 stalled under the Marino overbridge. The 800 following with its 7 ECLs rumbled up behind and without fuss pushed/pulled the whole shebang into Marino.)
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Brian

The irony is that the 3000 DEMUs came closest to a "standard" body because they used the same outline as the Melbourne EMUs.

The 2000 body was simply used for design convenience, it was there, rather than as some tribute to a Federal Government's grossly inflated and, as always, under funded schemes.

Ian
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
You have no idea at all Aaron the little use the NRM Red Hens get is quite successful if you have access to the number of people that actually do ride them. It is statements like this that leave you shaking your head though. The NRM is never going to get enough passengers on their Red Hens to pack out a 3 car set every trip. It would be nice, but I doubt it would ever happen though. But the number of passengers that do ride the Red Hens helps to pay some bills etc to keep on doing it though! So really you should be thankful, not taking ignorant swipes at those that are running them.

I dips my hat to those that keep the cars running though they are only volunteers, not full time employees though, so with what they have and what they do I would think it is a lot better than just letting them stand there and look good!
David Peters

Well said David.

Perhaps he should stick to model trains Razz
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Seriously Aaron who gives you the right to say what is worth keeping, I'm guessing your a baby boomer who has memories of catching the older vehicles? The jumbos hold history and many young Gen X, Y, (Z) will have memories of this, they may be bland to you Aaron but they are history and at least one set should be preserved. The jumbos are to Gen X, Y, (Z) what the redhens are to the baby boomer's.
torrens5022

Where did I suggest it wasn't worth keeping a set? What I suggested was that I would NEVER ride a set in preservation. Me, a baby boomer? Please, if anything I am a Gen Y. I remember the 2000s still arriving new, riding on them as basically brand new units. I still remember being disappointed in comparrisson to the Red Hens, and as a kid, keen to get home from school (who wasn't) I still recall deliberately missing a jumbo set to catch the RHs if they were running the next service.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
You have no idea at all Aaron the little use the NRM Red Hens get is quite successful if you have access to the number of people that actually do ride them. It is statements like this that leave you shaking your head though. The NRM is never going to get enough passengers on their Red Hens to pack out a 3 car set every trip. It would be nice, but I doubt it would ever happen though. But the number of passengers that do ride the Red Hens helps to pay some bills etc to keep on doing it though! So really you should be thankful, not taking ignorant swipes at those that are running them.

I dips my hat to those that keep the cars running though they are only volunteers, not full time employees though, so with what they have and what they do I would think it is a lot better than just letting them stand there and look good!
David Peters

If there was an award for misunderstanding posts you'd take it out week on week. You have totally missed the point behind my post. On top of that, you have even managed to invent and insert some ideas that I did not post. For example where did I take a swipe at those running them? Did I imply they were paid? It would be odd if I did, since I know they are not. I don't have time to bother with the rest.
  MaskedRailfan Train Controller

Is it possible the Jumbos could be the last type of railcar worth preserving with operation in mind? Operationally they should be able to be kept patched up for a decent period of time until the maintenance debt catches up making them uneconomic to run.

The recurring comment that jumbos are heavy on fuel intrigues me. Do they really use an enormous amount of fuel? Is it more that the power car only carries a limited amount of fuel that would require multiple trips to the fuel point during a shift?
  DrJames Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, SA
I get the impression that it's worth preserving a set simply due to the relative "oddness" (for lack of a better term) of the Jumbos, for the reasons Ian pointed out earlier.  

Would they be too heavy to operate on some of the routes operated by Steamranger?
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Is it possible the Jumbos could be the last type of railcar worth preserving with operation in mind?
"MaskedRailfan"
Possibly. The Jumbos are very primitive in terms of the technology on board, which would make them easy to keep going so long as the necessary mechanical parts are available. Any preservation group looking to keep operating them would probably need to acquire an additional power car to use as a parts donor.

Around the same time, other countries were building advanced trains like the InterCity 125 which will be much harder to keep going in preservation.
The recurring comment that jumbos are heavy on fuel intrigues me. Do they really use an enormous amount of fuel?
"MaskedRailfan"
Yes. They are optimised for long runs cruising at medium speed, not for suburban operation where the ideal DMU would be set up with a ~300kW engine under the floor of each car instead of one power car having a third of the saloon taken up by an engine room.

If they had an appropriate interior and the doors at the ends instead of ⅓ and ⅔ along the car, they would have been perfect for operating the Overland and replacing the Bluebirds on various SA intra-state services.

I get the impression that it's worth preserving a set simply due to the relative "oddness" (for lack of a better term) of the Jumbos, for the reasons Ian pointed out earlier.  
"DrJames"
Stuffed and mounted on a plinth inscribed with "don't fµ¢k it up this badly again" sounds perfect.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
If there was an award for misunderstanding posts you'd take it out week on week. You have totally missed the point behind my post. On top of that, you have even managed to invent and insert some ideas that I did not post. For example where did I take a swipe at those running them? Did I imply they were paid? It would be odd if I did, since I know they are not. I don't have time to bother with the rest.
Aaron

No I was just pointing out a few known facts to see that your ignorance is not bliss. You back peddle badly at times and it makes you look stupid. You made a comment about the NRM now cop the flak that you deserve! I invented nothing at all you posted it up not me. I am only clarifying the whole picture for one and all on here not for you personally! How do you know your statement is fact, admit it you don't and it shows! I agree with the hardly using them part, but the rest is straight out of your imagination here!

You stated and I quote "Now that is a bit of a stretch, the NRM hardly use them, and the success of the use is debatable".



  BB 260 Locomotive Fireman

Would they be too heavy to operate on some of the routes operated by Steamranger?
DrJames

A simple answer. NO. The power unit weight 68 tons = 17ton axle loading. The Victor Harbor line was built as main line standard. DE 958 weight per axle is 17.5 ton. The Blue Birds which ran on the line were 16.25 tons. So what's the problem. My 5 cents worth.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Possibly. The Jumbos are very primitive in terms of the technology on board, which would make them easy to keep going so long as the necessary mechanical parts are available. Any preservation group looking to keep operating them would probably need to acquire an additional power car to use as a parts donor.

Around the same time, other countries were building advanced trains like the InterCity 125 which will be much harder to keep going in preservation.
Yes. They are optimised for long runs cruising at medium speed, not for suburban operation where the ideal DMU would be set up with a ~300kW engine under the floor of each car instead of one power car having a third of the saloon taken up by an engine room.

If they had an appropriate interior and the doors at the ends instead of ⅓ and ⅔ along the car, they would have been perfect for operating the Overland and replacing the Bluebirds on various SA intra-state services.

The sophisticated thing about the IC125s is the bogies and suspension, nothing else is any more refined that the Jumbos

Stuffed and mounted on a plinth inscribed with "don't fµ¢k it up this badly again" sounds perfect. Laughing
justapassenger
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
power car having a third of the saloon taken up by an engine room.
"justapassenger"
That engine is not for traction.

Stuffed and mounted on a plinth inscribed with "don't fµ¢k it up this badly again" sounds perfect.
"justapassenger"
Agree! Laughing
  Sojourner Train Controller

The argument of over what is considered “classic” is not a new one, in terms of cars, the State Government has said that 1978 is the cut off point for Historic Registration when it used to be simply 35 years or older. This means the FX – HZ series Holden’s are considered Classic, yet the VB,C,H,K,L,N Commodores are not. In Ford it’s the XD Series onwards that cannot access a Historic Registration. Around the car clubs it is suggested that Chrome Bumper era cars should be in and plastic bumper cars should be out. The VB – XD series cars are to my memory built at the same time as the Jumbos – 1979-80 onwards which would suggest a call for parallel heritage recognition.


Personally I think those model Commodores and Falcons are classic – Chrome bumpers, cast Iron conrod engines, no Airbags and so forth. Yet perhaps like the above I consider these classic because like the Jumbos I remember them from my own childhood. - Hopefully the NRM are able to access a set and I think they would be ideal for Steam Ranger to have air conditioned units in summer when traditionally Victor Harbor is packed out with Tourists and Steam Trains are not able to be used. Like the National Rail Museum have done with the Red Hen set, they would look good brought back to their original painting specifications with STA decals and so forth. Once they are gone there is no option to simply change your mind later on and it happens more often than not that cars that you once could not give away – such as Split windscreen Kombi Vans and Karman Ghia Convertibles suddenly become incredibly sought after and popular. I suspect the Jumbos just like the Red Hens will be no different.  
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
That engine is not for traction.

Agree! Laughing
Aaron

No but it is essential just the same without it you would not have lights or air conditioning on the cars! But it is still an engine room though it is a room that contains a operating engine!
  Halo Chief Train Controller

Is that engine required to start the two traction engines?
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
Is that engine required to start the two traction engines?
Halo

No, it is an auxiliary power engine, it provides power for air conditioning, lights, air compressor, battery charging etc.

Wayne

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