Rail boss under fire in Senate

 
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Comparison of fares between different cities is meaningless, unless you also know how much people earn in each city.  For the typical fare cited for each city, how much is that as a percentage of a person's disposable income?  Difficult to measure, I know, because there will be a wide range of incomes among the users, but you have to establish some sort of average relationship between how much a person pays for a ticket vs. how much they earn, before you can say that the fare is comparatively cheaper or dearer in that city, in real terms.

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  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Given our earnings, the fairs are ridiculously cheap.

But still we whine and wonder why the service is so woeful.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Not everyone in Australia is earning high wages. Many of the countries in that list with low fare costs - Los Angeles - $1.68, Tokyo - $1.61, Moscow - $1.03, Singapore - $0.91, Hong Kong - $0.87. I would not call these third world economies.

In Australia we are being ripped off., Yes it would be acceptable if we had the worlds best transport system. But unfortunately Sydney is sometimes described as having one of the worst transport systems in the world.

Singapore has one of have the best rail systems and pay $0.91 for a short train journey, they are a modern wealthy country with high wages.
wxtre

Just curious - where did you get these figures and what distance are they based on?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Have you got a link?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I told you that blog was BS, and gave you actual comparable equivalents.

So put up or shut up - stop posting discredited rubbish.

And please stop trying to compare Russia and Australia - as with the airport thread, you just look like a fool.

In Australia we are being ripped off.
wxtre

Oh how clueless you are.


Roads here meets cost recovery - provide me with a legitimate reason as to why rail should not too.


You use transport, you pay for it, hardly a groundbreaking concept - alternatively you don't pay, and receive a rubbish service, just don't whine about it.


The figures in the list show that we do have high fares. If you ask anyone who has traveled or lived in overseas countries they will tell you this. It is common knowledge we have high transport fares in Australia comparatively to other countries.
wxtre

Well as someone who has traveled most of western Europe from Sweden right through to Portugal, I can safely say you're talking out of your ar5e.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Interesting to note neither piece discusses the subsidy, so we don't know whether the fares quoted cover the running costs.

Also on a side I heard from this article (I know it's old, but was new when I first read it), that TFL pays for their projects through debt.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Oh the internet, congratulations.  Have you been there?  

a/ It's the size of a postage stamp
b/ Portugal is near recession, not comparable to Australia
c/ A daily ticket (an actual comparable equivalent to Australia) is 6Euro

Considering the larger reach of a Melbourne zone 1 ticket, and the economic situation, our fares are cheaper.  You can't just grab some random single trip (ie. no change) ticket over a small distance, compare it to a daily zone 1, and claim we're more expensive.  If you compared on a like by like basis, you would find our fares are ridiculously cheap on a per km basis.

For Sweden if you went zone 2 which is still nothing like the extent of Melbourne's zone 1 the daily fare is in excess of $12.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Whats also needed is to take into account how big is the average wage in the cities. I agree with ZH that the average person in Melbourne spends compared to what they should pay on public transport is close to virtually nothing.

Russians would be pretty low on the scale considering they have recently come out of effects of complete communism and a majority of the country does not have a huge distribution of wealth, and I bet the average wage in the US is not as high as wtrxe thinks.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
That's correct.

Once you've managed to get a meaningful comparison over similar distances and service types (not cherry picking), you've got to scale by the relative cost of living in order to directly compare to Australia.

If cities charged comparable rates, you should expect Scandinavia and Switzerland to have the most expensive fares in Europe, and Spain to have the least, simply by virtue of their relative CPIs. Of course that doesn't mean Scandinavia, for example, has the most expensive fares, unless you can show they also have the highest scaled fares.

To put it in simple terms for wxtre, say we have three cities:

A/ Avg wage 50k, fares $5
B/ Avg wage 100k, fares $15
C/ Avg wage 200k, fares $20

City C has the most expensive tickets by nominal value, but in terms of cost of living, tickets in City C are no more expensive than those in City A.

City B actually has the most expensive fares, relative to living expenses.

Relevance? We expect Portuguese tickets to be cheaper than ours, but they aren't. Similarly we expect Swedish fares to be somewhat more expensive, but they are a lot more expensive. It's thus easy to conclude that our tickets are severely underpriced.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
We should also be comparing more than one distance, as the fare charged would also depend on the fare structure. For instance:

City A has a distance-based fare structure charging at the rate of $3.50/km,
City B has a zone-based structure similar to Melbourne's, charging $5.50 for a single zone, and $12.50 for two zones, with each zone having a radius of 20km,
City C also has a zone-based structure, but with a zone radius of 10km, charging $7.50 for a single zone, and $15.00 for two zones.


Say we pick 3 distances: 5km, 10km, and 15km.

Fares in City A would be as follows: $17.50, $35.00, and $52.50 respectively,
Fares in City B: $5.50, $5.50, $5.50, as all distances are within the one zone,
Fares in City C: $7.50, $7.50, and $15.00.

Thus, City A would have the cheapest fare for travelling less than 2km, but City B would have the cheapest fare for travelling 5km or more.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Would commuters pay more for improved transport?

http://media.smh.com.au/featured/would-commuters-pay-more-for-improved-transport-5984456.html
wxtre



Australia, from all honesty is a bunch of tightarses that dont realise that they need to pay to get decent things
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Mate, if you think that's foul language then wait until you encounter the rest of Australia!
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Holding a baseless opinion makes you fair game to be called anything under the sun.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The language was not that foul. But my point is they are allowed to hold an opinion about the transport network fare prices. It does not mean they are 'scrooge's' because they believe the ticket prices are high.
wxtre

On the contrary, wrxte they are mean gits who want silver service costing the taxpayers loads of money and do not want to pay for it. If you think that paying $9.30 for a return trip to Pakenham (110 Kms) is expensive then I am missing something. The days when governments view passenger rail as some community driven service is long gone and it is high time people realised this. If you want high quality PT more has to come from the fare box, pure and simple.


Michael

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