What will the new Vic Govt do for rural Victoria?

 
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Yes retaining say 10 = 12 two car VL sets for use on Ararat, Maryborough,Echuca and Off Peak Seymour may have been an option, but VLP management have been hellbent up to now on an entirely 3 car VL fleet.
kuldalai

Weren't they forced into that by the former Governement?

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  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
What about the traralgon RFR project or wasnt that one as successful and that whole line has liberal or national party politicians Rolling Eyes
"Chidda Bang"


Both the two State seats in the Latrobe Valley were held by the ALP when the Bracks Government was elected, but they are now held by the new Opposition coalition, although the seat of Morwell had a big swing against the Nats at the election and is now very marginal. V/Line annual passenger figures show the RFR line to Traralgon as having dramatically increased since the increased services started (2007?). The Traralgon station precinct is a very busy place now and the local Council has prepared a redevelopment strategy for it.
  AN830 Locomotive Driver

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Terrific debate on likely outcomes over the past 24 hours..



4 - investigate obtaining surplus 3000 and 3020 series railcars from South Australia to service Stony Point, Melton, Whyndam Vale and Wallan commuter peak services.

SN7


There are no surplus 3000/3100 Class Railcars, however the Class 2000/2100 Railcars are being retired at the moment, maybe they might be suitable for those services.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Could the reason be the former government (Napthine) refused to order the requested number of new Vlocity sets because to do so would mean additional investments in stabling ?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
However the Class 2000/2100 Railcars are being retired at the moment, maybe they might be suitable for those services.
AN830

These railcars are been retired because they are or are near life expired !

Why would V/Line want to buy second hand rolling stock ?

They have tried to lease SA rolling stock before, but failed to find them useful.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
What previous SA rollingstock had vline attempted to lease and when ?
  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:
What previous SA rollingstock had vline attempted to lease and when ?
freightgate


Bluebird railcars - to run Latrobe Valley services.

IIRC they in fact did run half of one public run - from Traralgon, and got half way to Melbourne before failing, withdrawn and never ran again.
  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:
Bluebird railcars - to run Latrobe Valley services.

IIRC they in fact did run half of one public run - from Traralgon, and got half way to Melbourne before failing, withdrawn and never ran again.
Calgully


See here for a pic - in Vline livery too!

http://www.vicsig.net/photo/11466

and

http://www.vicsig.net/photo/11467

and also a number more here

http://www.westonlangford.com/images/photo/1998/dec/
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I can't see any valid reason for V/Line to acquire old redundant South Australian stock to do a job the Sprinters are handling quite well right now.

At any rate, the Sprinters are only 20 years old, they still have plenty of life left in them, and are especially good at what they do.

Furthermore, The Stony Point line is not V/Lines responsibility, it's Metro's.
  SN7 Chief Commissioner

Yep, Stony Point is Metros,  to provide the Sprinters that replaced the A class & MTH cars V/Line received 2 car VL unit VL00, also tied in with the replacement of accident damadged VL 29,  which also became partof 3VL 41.

I am led to beleive and righly so that V/Line is not happy with the current arrangement for the provision of sprinters for operation if the Metro service to Stony Point.
Also due to TCA / Level crossing protection, each weekday one of the single sprinter runs is cancelled, and bussed.
The daily sprinter chsnge over of both sprinters chews up 4 sprinters when V/Line needs them for themselves.

The alternative either build or buy new rollingstock , or return the stored MTH cars to the run, and contain your laughter, run the train with the Metro B class locos.

Once RRL opens V/Line will want every piece of rollingstock
  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:
The daily sprinter change over of both sprinters chews up 4 sprinters when V/Line needs them for themselves.
SN7


So why not do the changeover at night after the peak demand is over?  That would save 2 sprinters.
  SN7 Chief Commissioner

The Frankston changeover occurs every night,  weekdays,  and as mentioned chews up 4 sprinters in the process,  that is 4 sprinters that can't really be used for the overnight exams, or used by V/Line on PM peak runs that do not return to Melbourne.  Often for example the 1806 down Bacchus Marsh has reduced capacity,  2 sprinters instead of 3,  as do other services which flows on to the next mornings peak. In effect, all things considered,  the changeover and provision of Sprinters effectively reduces the availability of sprinters available for V/Line,  by 6 if that makes sense , as previously overnight exam sprinter could be used on revenue services up until 10 pm ,  the changeover is too unreliable to be rostered in for exams.

Also in service failures that occur on the Stony Point usually are changed over when the fault occurs, often At the expense of a revenue V/Line service.
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

Bluebird railcars - to run Latrobe Valley services.

IIRC they in fact did run half of one public run - from Traralgon, and got half way to Melbourne before failing, withdrawn and never ran again.
Calgully

Whose brilliant idea was that?
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
So why not do the changeover at night after the peak demand is over? That would save 2 sprinters.
Calgully

they do

Mondays and Thursdays
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, interesting, considering that the Stony Point line is officially a VLINE SERVICE, they are obliged to run, even though acccording to timetables it appears under the METRO banner.  The tracks are acually owned by VLINE................
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
As far as I know, everything is owned by V/Line, but is leased to Metro for the service.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Weren't they forced into that by the former Governement?
railblogger

No.  VLP have been obsessed with standardizing to all 3 car VL sets because with different sized consists the operation is more difficult to manage, albeit that horrendous extra operating costs are involved with multiples of only 3, 6 or 9 cars can be run .

Surprisingly only one platform outside Southern Cross can hold a 9 car VL set, being No.1 at Ballarat, a legacy of the old broad gauge "The Overland" operation up to 1995.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Could the reason be the former government (Napthine) refused to order the requested number of new Vlocity sets because to do so would mean additional investments in stabling ?
freightgate

In September 2011, VLP sought 67 extra VL cars by time RRL opened from former Government . Minister sat on his hands for 12 months and ordered finally 40 in late 2012, subsequently increased to 43 . The failure to order the extra cars late in 2011 means that when RRL opens there will be a serious shortage of rollingstock especially as the two new stations will add something like 40% more patronage on existing overcrowded Geelong line trains, plus train sizes under the VLP plan will shrink from 7 cars to 6 cars - brilliant !!!

With the just concluded State election Mulder promised 24 more making up to VLP request of 67 but years too late, and Labor has promised 20 more .
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Metro should electrify to Baxter pronto, and Stony Point parallel bus service to train can be beefed up and convert Stony Point to shuttle bus to/from Sparks at Baxter .

VLP needs every Sprinter they can lay their hand on for their own services. If Stony Point is to continue as rail then Metro need to source their own DMU's to run Stony Point .

To both Operators Stony point is a pain in the backside . To Metro it is this diesel pimple on the end of a busy spark line, and to VLP they have to supply DMU's to Metro for an outer suburban service that in the total scheme of things carries few passengers . Not a very clever use of scarce DMU resources that VLP can use to carry much greater passenger numbers elsewhere .
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
No. VLP have been obsessed with standardizing to all 3 car VL sets because with different sized consists the operation is more difficult to manage, albeit that horrendous extra operating costs are involved with multiples of only 3, 6 or 9 cars can be run .

Surprisingly only one platform outside Southern Cross can hold a 9 car VL set, being No.1 at Ballarat, a legacy of the old broad gauge "The Overland" operation up to 1995.
kuldalai

I honestly think the issue is not so much having 3 car sets, but having powered trailer cars instead of unpowered ones like Metro does. Were the Vlocities designed with this in mind?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Originally all VL were two car sets, then powered trailers were purchased to increase train size to 3 cars .  So we have now mix of 2 & 3 car sets. With patronage growth we now need to go to 20 - 24  x 4 car sets .  If one puts in another powered trailer then the consist is over horsepowered and it is cheaper to run a loco hauled set for the same number of passengers .  So that is why the need to now be looking at 20 - 24  x 4 car sets with 3 cars powering and a strict trailer.  Still plenty of hp for the train weight to give good acceleration, lower capital cost and lower operating cost .  Current VLP VL schedules are loaded with "fat" to protect the timekeeping, not unusual to be regularly arriving at terminal stations  many minutes early .
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Originally all VL were two car sets, then powered trailers were purchased to increase train size to 3 cars . So we have now mix of 2 & 3 car sets. With patronage growth we now need to go to 20 - 24 x 4 car sets . If one puts in another powered trailer then the consist is over horsepowered and it is cheaper to run a loco hauled set for the same number of passengers . So that is why the need to now be looking at 20 - 24 x 4 car sets with 3 cars powering and a strict trailer. Still plenty of hp for the train weight to give good acceleration, lower capital cost and lower operating cost . Current VLP VL schedules are loaded with "fat" to protect the timekeeping, not unusual to be regularly arriving at terminal stations many minutes early .
kuldalai

I know that, but what I was asking was whether the original two-car sets were designed to take a trailer car (unpowered or not).
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I know that, but what I was asking was whether the original two-car sets were designed to take a trailer car (unpowered or not).

yes they were
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Ok, so could they have built unpowered cars instead of powered ones?
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Ok, so could they have built unpowered cars instead of powered ones?
railblogger

Correct. The critical factor in the early days was climbing capacity. I spoke to a Bombardier engineer in 2004 during a V Locity open day at SCS. He said that in a three car set, an unpowered middle trailer car would be ok for Geelong or Traralgon, but not Ballarat or Bendigo as the gradients would be a problem. But when you have one trailer and three powered cars, as suggested by Kuldalai, this is less of an issue. So 4 car sets of this type could be an option. The trailer cars are 1/2 the price of a powered car and faster to build. The Alstrom factory in Ballarat could do it, to take the pressure off the Bombardier Dandenong factory.

Also the next generation of long haul DMU’s can be build to a higher powered horsepower. Eg WA Prospector. So you could build a 5 car set, with 3 powered cars - Powered - trailer - powered - trailer - powered. It could do the 130 kph over all the routes, and more on the RFR sections. The hp for a V Locity car is 750hp. But this can be increased to 1000hp per car. Keep in mind that a powered car weighs in at 68 tons, but a trailer is 40 tons.

So for example:

5 X powered cars is 68 tons X 5 = 340 tons. 750hp x 5 = 3750hp
My suggestion weighs (68t x3) + (40t x2) = 384 tons and 1000hp x 3 = 3000hp.

Yes the all powered train has a slightly better power to weight ratio, but not so much as to be impractical.

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