East West Link work continues despite Daniel Andrews’ pledge to kill it

 
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The Alamein section of the outer circle railway line remains in operation. Why was this section not closed. East Kew, Deepden and Alphington are large population areas similar to areas serviced by the Alamein line.
wxtre

According to Railtrails Australia, this section was closed, but was reopened as far as Ashburton in 1898, and was extended to Alamein in 1948.

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  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The solution for this area in my opinion is to build the Docaster rail-line to take traffic off the Eastern freeway and Alexander Parade. Plus a tunnel connecting to the South Morang line at Clifton Hill Railway station. With underground metro stations at Fitzroy (Cnr Johnston/ Smith st), Carlton (hospital/university), the Victoria Market and connecting to Southern Cross station which would take local car traffic in Fitzroy off the roads.
wxtre

This is rubbish - the Doncaster line would do little for Alexandra Pde traffic volumes.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
This is rubbish - the Doncaster line would do little for Alexandra Pde traffic volumes.
ZH836301


I tend to agree the impact would be minimal.  Where it would be significant is with people travelling to the CBD from the Doncaster and beyond areas. A line to Doncaster is not as useful as a line continuing past doncaster to suburbs beyond as a larger catchment.

Anyhow the idea of flooding the eastern freeway which more trucks as mentioned on RP is not good policy as they is exactly what the East West Link would have done.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The Alamein section of the outer circle railway line remains in operation. Why was this section not closed. East Kew, Deepden and Alphington are large population areas similar to areas serviced by the Alamein line.
wxtre

East Kew, Deepdene and Alphington were pretty much settled when the line was re-opened to passenger traffic and already had good public transport options. On the other hand, the area around Ashburton and Alamein was the subject of large scale Housing Commission development at the time, with many low income families moving into the cheap housing, and they needed public transport to get to work, as the majority of Melbourne's population post-war travelled to the city for work.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
It would help to reduce traffic on Alexandra Parade. An xtrapolis train can carry 528 seated people on a (6-carriage set). And an estimated 800 passengers if you include standing passengers. If there are 10 trains an hour on the proposed Doncaster line that is potentially 8000 train travelers per hour. During the 3 hours of morning peak that is 24,000 passengers. Include 3 hours of evening peak that is doubled to 48000 people that could possibly not use a motor vehicle or bus during peak hour. I believe 60,000 vehicles a day presently use the Eastern freeway and use Alexandra parade. It is a high estimate of train usage but even if half that amount of people use the Doncaster line per day it is still significant.
wxtre

There is no point quoting the number of passengers a given train can carry, it has little to do with the case for or against Doncaster rail. The Doncaster area is simply not a growth area, it has a rapidly aging population that is already entrenched in the idea of using cars to get to work and will have less use for public transport on a daily basis as the residents get to retirement age.

Public transport usage habits are something that is ingrained into the public early in their life, so if you provide transport options to young home owners when they are starting out, they will tend to keep using them for a good portion of their working life. Older residents are more resistant to changing their transport habits, and that well describes the people of Doncaster.

You need to study your subject more before you ask these questions. Look at where rail services are being expanded, it is not in established housing areas, but new outer suburban housing tracts, as witness the extensions along the Whittlesea line.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
East-West Business case will be released on Monday, 15th December in a budget style lock-up situation.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/opposition-leader-matthew-guy-wants-federal-funds-to-stay-in-vic---east-west-business-case-release-20141212-125len.html

Mike.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Money the Abbott government paid to Victoria for the East West Link must remain in the state regardless of what infrastructure project it is spent on, new Opposition Leader Matthew Guy says.

In a dramatic change of position from the Coalition's time in government -- where it warned voters that a state Labor government would have to pay back $3 billion to the Commonwealth if it stopped East West link -- Mr Guy on Friday afternoon insisted Victoria must be able to keep the money.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
I tend to agree the impact would be minimal. Where it would be significant is with people travelling to the CBD from the Doncaster and beyond areas. A line to Doncaster is not as useful as a line continuing past doncaster to suburbs beyond as a larger catchment.
bevans

There is the claim that a Doncaster railway would remove traffic from the freeway, but that's not the case.  Much of the freeway traffic is not local Doncaster traffic but originates in the "beyond" areas and their larger catchments, and someone coming in from those areas is not going to park their car at a Doncaster station and continue the journey by rail.  A Doncaster rail line would no doubt remove some (not all) of the locally derived traffic on the freeway, but it would be an insignificant proportion of the total traffic volume.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Money the Abbott government paid to Victoria for the East West Link must remain in the state regardless of what infrastructure project it is spent on, new Opposition Leader Matthew Guy says.

In a dramatic change of position from the Coalition's time in government -- where it warned voters that a state Labor government would have to pay back $3 billion to the Commonwealth if it stopped East West link -- Mr Guy on Friday afternoon insisted Victoria must be able to keep the money.
freightgate

Good to see that Mr Guy has apparently stepped aside from the one sided, one eyed rhetoric of his former leader and is thinking positively.  He will earn no brownie points with Abbott, but just possibly we will have a constructive Opposition in Victoria?
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Money the Abbott government paid to Victoria for the East West Link must remain in the state regardless of what infrastructure project it is spent on, new Opposition Leader Matthew Guy says.

In a dramatic change of position from the Coalition's time in government -- where it warned voters that a state Labor government would have to pay back $3 billion to the Commonwealth if it stopped East West link -- Mr Guy on Friday afternoon insisted Victoria must be able to keep the money.
freightgate

I can see why Guy might want the money to stay in Vic, but Guy should be pushing Abbott to demand the money back if the link doesn't proceed.

It would be like applying for a grant.   Group wants $1000 for X, then decides it wants to complete project Y.   Government then says that is not what grant money was for - asks for money back.   That is the way it works for the general population.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
That federal money should now go where it was initially intended to, the Metro Rail tunnel.
  QSB6.7 Chief Train Controller

Location: Going off the rails on a crazy train.
Good to see that Mr Guy has apparently stepped aside from the one sided, one eyed rhetoric of his former leader and is thinking positively. He will earn no brownie points with Abbott, but just possibly we will have a constructive Opposition in Victoria?
Lad_Porter

We could very well have constructive Opposition, but never forget the inner-city Greens and how destructive they can truly be.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

I see that some people still think that the Ring Road will be extended to meet the Eastern Freeway at Ringwood, let me remind you all that the Ring Road has always been planned to meet the Eatern Freeway at Bulleen.   It has always been planned to turn South down thru Watsonia and pass through Trinnity Grammar/Marcellin playing fields and interesct at Bulleen?Thompson Rd.s  and the Eastern Freewy intersections....................
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
That federal money should now go where it was initially intended to, the Metro Rail tunnel.
Gman_86

This Is not correct, you need to get your facts right !

The federal money for the Metro Rail Tunnel "was not real", It was an un budgeted promise for about the 2020 - 2021 budget.

The first $1.5 Billion was Abbott's political candy money, that he squeezed out of this years budget.

The second $1.5 Billion was Abbott's compo money for the Western section, so jobless ex Geelong car workers could drive to Melbourne (that's how Tony Abbott sees things)
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

There have been proposals to extend the Doncaster line further than Doncaster shoppingtown eventually. The construction of an underground line similar to the 'north west rail link' in Sydney could be built. To service these suburbs such as Doncaster East, Donvale, Park Orchards and Warrandyte.
wxtre

The original plan was to tunnel underneath Doncaster (around Tram Rd/ Doncaster Rd intersection) and proceed roughly east and terminate near the intersection of King Street/ Blackburn Road. It was marked up on old Melways for several years.

On the subject of East West Link, a friend of mine who owns an engineering design consultancy has just been awarded the contract to build the EW Link control room. He's adamant that it will proceed.

edit: The exit point from the freeway centre reservation was east of the Bulleen Road entry/exit where the freeway swings southerly.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The original plan was to tunnel underneath Doncaster (around Tram Rd/ Doncaster Rd intersection) and proceed roughly east and terminate near the intersection of King Street/ Blackburn Road. It was marked up on old Melways for several years.

edit: The exit point from the freeway centre reservation was east of the Bulleen Road entry/exit where the freeway swings southerly.
ParkesHub

There Is no way an underground railway would be built at the end of a branch line, where the population density Is low, they struggle to build underground railways In the centre of the city where the population density Is at It's highest.

If the Doncaster railway ever gets built, It would not leave the freeway reservation.

Tram extensions would be a more achievable rail solution for Doncaster, linking route 24/48 to Box Hill via Doncaster, extending route 72 to meet 24/48.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

There Is no way an underground railway would be built at the end of a branch line, where the population density Is low, they struggle to build underground railways In the centre of the city where the population density Is at It's highest.

If the Doncaster railway ever gets built, It would not leave the freeway reservation.

Tram extensions would be a more achievable rail solution for Doncaster, linking route 24/48 to Box Hill via Doncaster, extending route 72 to meet 24/48.
Nightfire

I'm not arguing the point. It simply was planned that way originally.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
This project has strong parallels to the Wonthaggi desalination plant.

Preliminary work had started before an election, but the Liberals and Nationals promised that it would stop if they won that election.

When the Coalition won the 2010 election, they ordered work to stop, but on examining the contracts, it was found that the penalty clauses and other contractual details made the cost of abandoning work so expensive, that if they abandoned the project, they would have to pay most of the cost of the plant and get nothing in return. So effectively, it wasn't possible to cancel it.

Now, while the stage 1 of the East-West Link is a smaller project,... IF the former Coalition government was as clever as their ALP predecessors and they copied the penalty clauses from Labour's desal contract and put them in the East-West Link contract, then it might be (effectively) impossible for Labour to get out of the project without paying the bulk of the cost of the project to contractors too.

So just like the Wonthaggi desal went ahead despite the wishes of the incoming state government, once all the hype has died down, I reckon the East - West Link will go ahead too. Smile
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I know understand why the business case was so secret. Highly contentious. From the Age Newspaper today.

Raising fees on existing toll roads and introducing new tolls on the Eastern and Tullamarine freeways were considered by the former Napthine government to pay for the $6.8 billion East West Link.

The Andrews government will hold a "budget-style" lock-up on Monday to release the previously secret business case for the project - despite the key elements of the document being published by News Limited this morning.

According to the documents, tolls on the first stage of the proposed tunnel would not have covered its ongoing costs, with a $5.3 to $5.8 billion "funding gap".

Transurban and ConnectEast discussed raising tolls on CityLink and East Link to increase funding for the controversial project, which was scrapped by Labor ahead of the state election.

"Adjusting pricing arrangements for these existing toll roads would increase the total funding available for the road link, as well as establish a fair and efficient toll regime across Melbourne's freeway network."

Tolls on the West Gate Freeway were also considered. There would have been an on and off-peak tolling periods.

-TheAge 15/12
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Toll revenue from the cancelled East West Link project would have been so minimal compared to the huge construction costs that it would have taken 56 years to pay for it, the business case reveals.

Traffic modelling for the six-kilometre link also predicts that the tunnel would have been used by a fraction of inbound traffic on the Eastern Freeway in the morning peak, with just 13 per cent of vehicles bound for Melbourne Airport or the western suburbs.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
It is a good thing this project was stopped. The ALP announced today the project would not go ahead and work ceased last week.

The Age reports today:

Most Eastern Freeway traffic would have headed to the CBD, Melbourne's inner north or south of the Yarra, the modelling shows. This would have increased traffic congestion on some of Melbourne's busiest roads.

Remarkably, the lower-end calculations for the road's benefit-cost ratio were so poor that the former government never submitted ts first version of the business case to Infrastructure Australia, for fear that the figures "may be used as a justification for not supporting the project".

This is consistent with the views on this site for a long period of time. Infrastructure Australia knocked back the project. It was also reported Napthine had not submitted an application for funding so the above from The Age worries me. Obviously the traffic figures were rubbish as the specialist in Vicroads stated and was then sacked.

So why then with no hope of the project returning economic benefits in almost a generation was the project signed off and work commenced? We now understand why the Libs were so keen to get it moving prior to the election. It just did not make sense to build and run.

The only real beneficiaries were the road freight industry and they obviously expected everyone else to pay for their project even thou most people were not going to use it.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
So the claim is that the East - West Link would have been almost as big a "White Elephant" as the Wonthaggi desalination plant? Question
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
So the claim is that the East - West Link would have been almost as big a "White Elephant" as the Wonthaggi desalination plant? Question
Bogong

Yes

The big slap In the face for the project promoters was the revelation that this link would of Increased traffic congestion on surrounding roads and freeways, the claim "congestion buster" was so untrue !


A return of 45 cents In the dollar ! no wonder the former Government had no Intention of releasing the full business case, just a cooked up basic one, that they liked.

Infrastructure Australia needed a minimum of $1.50 return on every dollar Invested to support a case for Government funding.

It was stated that Tony Abbott had not ever read the business case, he trusted It was all good.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The ALP's metro rail tunnel returns $1.75 for every dollar if I recall.

A much better use of taxpayers money. Libs cannot be trusted with money.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The ALP's metro rail tunnel returns $1.75 for every dollar if I recall.

A much better use of taxpayers money. Libs cannot be trusted with money.
freightgate

Media have quoted $1.90 recently for every dollar put In.

But the Government will have to drum up the funds themselves (probably through yet another shady PPP secrete deal with a loan shark)

Unless the build It at really snail pace and fund It as they go !

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