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Peco Code 75 Electrofrog points questions

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      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    Just purchased three sets of points to try a little DCC operation and test locomotives/carriages across points.  Pulled points out of the box, connected DCC power to track (open ended, just three sections of flexitrack and one set of points) and for each of the points that I try, switching the points from one track to the other causes a short.  In other words, one road is always OK, the other road always shorts.

    Have never used code 75 before, haven't experienced this problem with N gauge points...is there something I am doing wrong, why would one road always cause a short?
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 16:58

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      dthead Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    sounds like the point is a electrofrog.  the frog may need a insulated gap.  No real differenc in HP or N scale, peco make both electrofrop and insulfrog in both N and HO.  A photo or quick sketch would help heeps.

    Regards,
    David Head
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 17:25
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    Hi David

    It *is* electrofrog, but Fleischmann N gauge eletrofrog don't do this.

    Why would an electrofrog point short out, isn't an insulated gap part of the point?  If you cut a rail (where?), doesn't that now turn it into an insulfrog?

    Just don't understand....don't have a camera handy, but imagine three pieces of flextrack joined to a point - that is all it is, nothing else...just for testing.

    Not very successfully so far Sad
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 17:29
      ARodH Chief Train Controller

    Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
    All I can think of is that you've not used any insulator fishplates like what the instructions in/on the box say to do. The short is coming from the live frog changing from + to - while still needing to remain + or vice versa.
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 17:31
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    Hi ARodH...

    Have just RTFM Smile and see that it has a section for wiring to DCC or DC when the track shorts. Insulated fishplates are an option but not required according to the instruction sheet.

    So it appears that I need to wire in a PL-13 or PL-15 switch if I want to use electrofrog with DCC...one can't just lay track and test it.

    This is exactly *not* how the Fleischmann track works....it just....works, no funny wiring or additional switches.

    Oh well....
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 17:41

    Last edited by Gremlin on 17 Jan 2015 17:42; edited 1 time in total
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    OK...a quick Google landed me at http://www.wiringfordcc.com/switches_peco.htm

    Which makes it simple for me to understand... Smile

    But I don't understand why it doesn't work "out of the box" like Fleischmann N gauge, where one takes the point, connects rails and power and - voila - no wiring or fiddling or shorting or...just works.
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 17:49
      John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

    Location: Brisbane
    Grem,

    I have used plenty of Peco Code 100 and Code 83 Electrofrog points and if you just connect up a few bits of flex track and the points you would not get a short.  You read the instructions it seems from your post.  Perhaps Code 75 points are queer.  If they were Code 100 or Code 83 I would just snip a couple of wires and no need for whatever those switches are that you mention, unless you want reliable operation in the longer term that is.  For a short run just to test not really needed.

    Regards,
    John
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 17:50

    Last edited by John_Bushell on 17 Jan 2015 18:09; edited 1 time in total
      apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Location: Location.
    Are you applying power to the heel (correct) or one of the toes (incorrect) of your point in this simple setup? Sounds like you've wired power to one of the toes to be getting a short.
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 18:08

    Last edited by apw5910 on 17 Jan 2015 18:08; edited 1 time in total
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    apw5910, and others, all I have done is:
    1. take point out of pack
    2. place on baseboard
    3. attach one piece of flexitrack to each road
    4. on the "straight through" road, attach DCC power to one end of flexitrack


    Switching (manually) from main to side road causes a short.  Does this on all three points.  Not applying any power to any other place - one clip on each rail at one place only at the end of the "straight through" road.

    Couldn't have imagined a simpler connection...
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 18:20
      TedFreeman Junior Train Controller

    Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
    apw5910, and others, all I have done is:
    1. take point out of pack
    2. place on baseboard
    3. attach one piece of flexitrack to each road
    4. on the "straight through" road, attach DCC power to one end of flexitrack


    Switching (manually) from main to side road causes a short.  Does this on all three points.  Not applying any power to any other place - one clip on each rail at one place only at the end of the "straight through" road.

    Couldn't have imagined a simpler connection...


    Which end of the straight road, the heel, where there is a single track, or the diverging straight track end, if the latter, there is your problem.


    Gremlin
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 18:27

    Last edited by TedFreeman on 17 Jan 2015 18:28; edited 1 time in total
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    It was the toe, I swapped the point 180 degrees and it works....why?

    What now happens if I make a loop - will it short again?
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 18:32
      TedFreeman Junior Train Controller

    Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
    It was the toe, I swapped the point 180 degrees and it works....why?

    What now happens if I make a loop - will it short again?
    Gremlin
    If you make a loop you will get a short when you set for the siding, you will need insulated joiners (or gaps) on the toe end of the loop track and the feed must come from the Heel (point blade) end.

    The power will go around the loop and stop at the insulated joiners, its hard to explain, if I could post a picture, I would.
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 19:53

    Last edited by TedFreeman on 17 Jan 2015 19:53; edited 1 time in total
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    TedFreeman, I understand what you are describing electrically...

    What I don't understand is - why does the point allow this to happen?  Can't they be built so this *doesn't* happen?  I can only use my N gauge Fleischmann experience, where you don't need to do any of this.  I wonder what Fleischmann are doing differently?
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 19:56
      John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

    Location: Brisbane
    its hard to explain, if I could post a picture, I would.
    TedFreeman
    Every Peco point I have opened had an explanation and diagram on a sheet of paper.  Grem, you said you read the instructions didn't you?  If you just run your finger along the rail when selected to the branch you will see why you get the short if you feed power to the toe end of the point.  The rail that moved across to make the line to the branch is touching the rail on the opposite side, unless you use insulated joiners on the toe end as indicated in the instructions.

    Best regards,
    John
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:00
      John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

    Location: Brisbane
    its hard to explain, if I could post a picture, I would.
    Every Peco point I have opened had an explanation and diagram on a sheet of paper.  Grem, you said you read the instructions didn't you?  If you just run your finger along the rail when selected to the branch you will see why you get the short if you feed power to the toe end of the point.  The rail that moved across to make the line to the branch is touching the rail on the opposite side, unless you use insulated joiners on the toe end as indicated in the instructions.

    Best regards,
    John
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:01
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    Hi John

    OK, I get it.  So, for electrofrog points I have to wire from a specific location and use insulated joiners to be able to connect power at either end of a straight non-looped section.  If, on the other hand, I used insulfrog points, I should be able to connect power anywhere I choose and not have to use insulated joiners...?
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:05
      qredge Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Marsden Qld
    Electro frog means the metal frog is live and depends which way the point is set to which track makes it live
    If it is straight then the curved rail is making it live so no problems as the wheel runs from the curved rail across the frog to contine on in a straight line
    If you change it to the siding
    then the straight side is what makes it live and again no problem as the other wheel runs from the straight side across the frog to the curved siding line
    So the frog changes polarity depending on which way the point is set
    Now if you join in a loop using straight side and set for straight there is no pmroblem as the frog is the same polarity as the curved side of point
    Now the problem occurs when you change to the siding the frog changes to the polarity of the straight side which then clashes wit the loop track feeding in from the opposite end and a short occurs
    So you put a plastic fish plate there and problem solved
    The other brands probably have a switch to change it and the frog is totally isolated and only fed through the switch
    Peco you have to do that yourself
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:09
      John_Bushell Chief Commissioner

    Location: Brisbane
    Hi John

    OK, I get it.  So, for electrofrog points I have to wire from a specific location and use insulated joiners to be able to connect power at either end of a straight non-looped section.  If, on the other hand, I used insulfrog points, I should be able to connect power anywhere I choose and not have to use insulated joiners...?
    Gremlin
    Grem,

    I never use Insulfrog points so I haven't studied whether that same short would happen.  My first inclination is that it would still give a short, but since I know nothing about Insulfrog points I am no authority on the question.  Sorry.

    Best regards,
    John
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:09
      apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Location: Location.
    Insulfrog points won't short out, but they won't transmit power, either. The rules for electrofrog are very simple, you must feed power from the heel end and if any feed "looks into" the toe end of a point, you'll need insulated rail joiners (or gaps) on the frog rails.

    There used to be a very good little publication by Peco (good old C.J. Freezer), "Wiring Your Layout" that went into a lot of detail with simple diagrams about how to do all this.

    Don't use Insulfrog points, your trains WILL stall on the plastic frog.
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:17

    Last edited by apw5910 on 17 Jan 2015 20:19; edited 2 times in total
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    Thanks all - very informative and helpful, have been experimenting with each suggestion and I can see the operational differences due to the track manufacturing differences between Peco and Fleischmann - now for some more reading based on the help from the forum Smile
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:21
      dthead Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    A quick pic:



    If you connect your power to "B" the live frog will short out as all joiners are metal, if the point  is set to sent a train up. it wold work if the point is level.

    so "A" is the best place to connect power.

    Peco points, and many other brands do not provide complex wiring in the point. More complex track get more difficult and insulted gaps would be needed.   Fleischmann is the exception for wiring.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards,
    David Head
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:23
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    Got it - thanks! Smile
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 20:24
      MtBeenak Train Controller

    http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/Code75ConTurnoutInst.pdf

    This is the link to the instructions which should have come with your Code 75 points.  I disagree with having no insulated rail joiner on any stub ended siding where you are going to stable a loco, as power flows through the motor and energises the adjoining siding.  I have had this experience, and now isolate each siding and run a separate, switched wire to each rail which comes off the frog of an electrofrog point.  I know this sounds like more work, but the results are trouble free operation and no erratic power flow.

    Mick
    Posted: 17 Jan 2015 21:58
      apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Location: Location.
    http://www.peco-uk.com/imageselector/Files/Instruction%20sheets/Code75ConTurnoutInst.pdf

    This is the link to the instructions which should have come with your Code 75 points.  I disagree with having no insulated rail joiner on any stub ended siding where you are going to stable a loco, as power flows through the motor and energises the adjoining siding.  I have had this experience, and now isolate each siding and run a separate, switched wire to each rail which comes off the frog of an electrofrog point.  I know this sounds like more work, but the results are trouble free operation and no erratic power flow.

    Mick
    MtBeenak

    +1

    Long ago I learnt to not rely on the often dubious electrical continuity provided by the sliding wipers on the point blades. I switch the frog's polarity using contacts on the point motor instead.
    Posted: 18 Jan 2015 08:12
      Gremlin Assistant Commissioner

    "I switch the frog's polarity using contacts on the point motor instead."
    Which is fine, of course, if one is using point motors or not just testing layouts...

    What about if it is a manual switch?
    Posted: 18 Jan 2015 08:18

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