4000 class horn debate

 
  BIG-BEAR Chief Train Controller

The whingers are still going .  

It looks like their problems are more important than safety .

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/memo-to-all-staff-tone-down-your-trains-horn/story-fnii5yv6-1227293179316

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  pafcmachine Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
Bought a cheap house in a fancy area because it's near the railway line - you get what you pay for.

The new horns are pretty loud, but there's an obvious reason for that. I assume they've been designed to a particular Australian or European Standard.

So if train drivers stop or otherwise reduce the use of their horns, and someone does get collected I wonder if Amanda Aloia and Mark De Ritter will be at the scene to help clear up the mess, or will they attend the coroners court?

Neither - they'll probably complain about the noise of the ambulances!

Adelaide - NIMBY City
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
It looks like their problems are more important than safety .
BIG-BEAR
If you had a time machine I wonder what our ancestors would make of these people.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
Our ancestors would probably remark that our horns seem pretty damn loud and the trains don't make a lot of noise.

I've not found anything concrete, but I can't imagine that steam whistles and early diesel horns compare to the modern standards that are in place around the world. Standards that are designed to hopefully get some noise through to people who are in cars with much better sound insulation than you would have seen 20 years ago, let alone 50.

It's a difficult problem; the horns are already pushin the limits for hearing damage but I imagine if I was a driver who regularly sees people running in front of the train I'd think they should be louder still.  However people who live near railway lines have reasonable expectations for quality of life as well.

Where are the 4000 horns mounted? On the roof of down in the under carriage?
  Smacks Station Master

Our ancestors would probably remark that our horns seem pretty damn loud and the trains don't make a lot of noise.

I've not found anything concrete, but I can't imagine that steam whistles and early diesel horns compare to the modern standards that are in place around the world. Standards that are designed to hopefully get some noise through to people who are in cars with much better sound insulation than you would have seen 20 years ago, let alone 50.

It's a difficult problem; the horns are already pushin the limits for hearing damage but I imagine if I was a driver who regularly sees people running in front of the train I'd think they should be louder still.  However people who live near railway lines have reasonable expectations for quality of life as well.

Where are the 4000 horns mounted? On the roof of down in the under carriage?
SAR523
Horns are mounted on the roof.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
It's a difficult problem; the horns are already pushin the limits for hearing damage but I imagine if I was a driver who regularly sees people running in front of the train I'd think they should be louder still.  However people who live near railway lines have reasonable expectations for quality of life as well.
SAR523
I lived opposite the Noarlunga line for a considerable amount of time - at a point in the line where trains often blew their horn too (approaching a nearby level X-ing). After a while you don't notice it... or at least I didn't. In my opinion I'd have a railway line over a busy road any day.

The relative quiet-ness of the new trains might have made residents notice the horns much more where they might not have noticed so much over the roar of an accelerating Jumbo.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
The relative quiet-ness of the new trains might have made residents notice the horns much more where they might not have noticed so much over the roar of an accelerating Jumbo.
don_dunstan
I live three short blocks straight down my street from where the trains sound for the Oaklands crossing and consider the complainers to be whingers of the first order. Even when I am at the crossing (and I always wait to watch the train if the bells are sounding) the very brief toot given by the drivers isn't even loud let alone ear-piercing, though my hearing aids pick up the slightest background noises to a level that I never experienced when my hearing was good.

They are warning devices and need to be heard, particularly in these days of earphones blaring 'music' into inattentive ears while eyes watch a text massage about the latest world-shaking event that happened to another moron as one of today's shining examples of failed education dices with death.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
When I first read this article in the Adelaide paper I noticed this sentence first:

the “piercing” blasts were affecting their lives.
"Some person who does not hold qualification to be expert in the field"


If some is knocked over a spark set because they were not alerted to it's approach because of a lack of 'piercing' blast they will truly understand what effect the horns have on lives... That being preserving them, not affecting them by foul means.
  Halo Chief Train Controller

Ive always said the tone is fine (I prefer it). Its just too loud for the purpose. How farxaway can they be heard? 5km?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Ive always said the tone is fine (I prefer it). Its just too loud for the purpose. How farxaway can they be heard? 5km?
Halo
It all depends on the level of background noise and the degree to which the intended hearer is isolated from their environment.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Halo, read the ATSB report into Benalla. That report discusses insertion losses of train warning sounds in some detail.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
If some is knocked over a spark set because they were not alerted to it's approach because of a lack of 'piercing' blast they will truly understand what effect the horns have on lives... That being preserving them, not affecting them by foul means.
Aaron
This is the part that makes me cranky: the very first thing that happens when someone wearing headphones gets run-over by a train is that the train is blamed for not being prescient enough. This has happened multiple times in the last few years on the Frankston line where pedestrians take their chances through the emergency exits across three tracks with a mix of stopping and express trains, sensory-impaired because they're listening to their music full blast.

The reason it's so loud is for YOUR SAFETY, not because they want to annoy you.
  Smacks Station Master

I live three short blocks straight down my street from where the trains sound for the Oaklands crossing and consider the complainers to be whingers of the first order. Even when I am at the crossing (and I always wait to watch the train if the bells are sounding) the very brief toot given by the drivers isn't even loud let alone ear-piercing, though my hearing aids pick up the slightest background noises to a level that I never experienced when my hearing was good.
SAR526
I agree, the only time I have experienced the sound being too loud is standing right next to the train (only 3 or 4 metres from the horns) walking off the platform at Oaklands. Even when i'm standing that close the usual short horn blast is not loud enough to cause discomfort. Admittedly, the sound carries quite a way but the intensity of the horn once you are away from the immediate vicinity is not enough to disturb you.

I'm guilty of listening to music on headphones while walking around and it certainly can deprive you of being aware of your surroundings if the music is too loud. That being said, I always wait for the train if the crossing is active since I enjoy seeing it go past. I see too many people running through the emergency exit in front of a train pulling into a station. Even if you wait for the crossing to clear there is plenty of time to get onto the train if you are able bodied enough to be running across the tracks in front of a train.
  Smacks Station Master

4011 does not have its horns mounted on the top of the cabin, they are underneath the cabin behind the coupler. Was this done recently have I just not been observant enough?
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
4011 does not have its horns mounted on the top of the cabin, they are underneath the cabin behind the coupler. Was this done recently have I just not been observant enough?
Smacks
The only photo of 4011 I have this year was taken last Friday at Hallett Cove Beach.  Unfortunately the coupler compartment is in deep shade.

One thing I have noticed about the horn volume is that inside the leading motor car the horn is difficult hear even in units where the aircon is comparatively quiet.  On Friday on the platform at Hallett Cove Beach the klaxon horn at HCB Primary School about 500m away was more intrusive than the train horns.

Alex C

  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Looking at the faring above the destination it appears that the horns have been removed from their slots?

I'm astonished that the SA DOI took these people seriously and spent money on 'quieter' horns. They're only going to have to make them louder again when there's a public outcry about pedestrians being run over by 'too quiet' trains...
  Smacks Station Master

Looking at the faring above the destination it appears that the horns have been removed from their slots?

I'm astonished that the SA DOI took these people seriously and spent money on 'quieter' horns. They're only going to have to make them louder again when there's a public outcry about pedestrians being run over by 'too quiet' trains...
don_dunstan
4011 is the only one that looks like this that I have seen. The horns are still fairly loud just inside the coupler compartment. Maybe this will stop the sound from carrying as far.
  SAR523 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Chicago, IL
4011 is the only one that looks like this that I have seen. The horns are still fairly loud just inside the coupler compartment. Maybe this will stop the sound from carrying as far.
Smacks

That was the reason for my question above with regards to their mounting location.  The sound from horns mounted on the roof will clearly carry further, whereas those mounted on the bogies should be just as audible to those in the path of the train. I can't find anything with a quick search, but I recall discussions where they've been relocated in such a fashion in the US.
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
That was the reason for my question above with regards to their mounting location.  The sound from horns mounted on the roof will clearly carry further, whereas those mounted on the bogies should be just as audible to those in the path of the train. I can't find anything with a quick search, but I recall discussions where they've been relocated in such a fashion in the US.
SAR523
Interesting, as in the USA horn sound has to meet certain standards. One of those standards means that a train horn at head level would blow peoples ear drums! I remember reading that was the reason the horns on the P42DC's used by Amtrak are on the roof, instead of on the nose.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Yay... im over the moon that Railpage now has the like button. Now i can like all the awesome posts from awesome train buffs. btw i do think the horn is too sharp as the old ladies can get headaches from loud noises.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Yay...
btw i do think the horn is too sharp as the old ladies can get headaches from loud noises.
Heath Loxton
Love to have an acoustic definition of "too sharp" thanks Heath

My mother (at 94 years old, would come under the 'old ladies' group) doesn't get headaches from loud noises at all!
She just turns her hearing aids down (or takes them out!) if things are too loud. Shocked

Does anyone have any noise test data on the 4000 class horns compared to the 3000 and jumbos?
(And I don't mean 'personal perceived' noise levels, I mean actual data in accordance with EPA testing standards)
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Interesting, as in the USA horn sound has to meet certain standards. One of those standards means that a train horn at head level would blow peoples ear drums! I remember reading that was the reason the horns on the P42DC's used by Amtrak are on the roof, instead of on the nose.
Alco_Haulic
Is there a Code or Standard for rail vehicle warning devices? The ADRs for road vehicles is no help, what is "sufficient audible warning"?

"Warning Device
Every motor vehicle must be fitted with a least one warning device capable of giving sufficient audible warning of the presence of the vehicle.  It must give an audible signal having constant amplitude and frequency characteristics.  It may be powered by any energy source including compressed air."
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Both my wife and I love the sound of the Amtrak horns enjoyed on many cross USA trips.
They can get a bit trying in the middle of the night going through a mid sized city with lots of LXs.

As for the principal complainant he lives in Cedar Ave Brighton so I suggest anybody driving through Brighton take that route to avoid Brighton Road congestion. Of course there will be a stray cat right outside which needs a warning blast. Laughing Many cats are out quite late at night.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
No apolgies in editing out the exact street address, Let's not play "point out the person" so he can be harassed game.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Both my wife and I love the sound of the Amtrak horns enjoyed on many cross USA trips.
They can get a bit trying in the middle of the night going through a mid sized city with lots of LXs.

As for the principal complainant he lives in Cedar Ave Brighton so I suggest anybody driving through Brighton take that route to avoid Brighton Road congestion. Of course there will be a stray cat right outside which needs a warning blast. Laughing Many cats are out quite late at night.
steam4ian
Meow, i own 7 stray cats by the name of Father Tiddles, Mother Ginger, Mimi, Liger, Fluffy, Misty and Blackie-Charcoal. although i havent seen mother cat Ginger and lone wolf Mimi around for a while so i hope they werent hit by a train or scared by a loud horn. Very Happy

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