Will this just about kill off the catholic church in Australia?

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Pell has announced he is willing to attend the Royal Commission in person!

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  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Herald Sun today.  Pell was at meetings when Risdale was discussed about crimes to children.  Pell knew about the children being molested.

Pell and Risdale bunked together Ballarat for a period.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I feel another Cardinal memory lapse coming on.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Risdale now practically states Pell was the only other person who could have been in the same room when he was raping a young girl whilst living with Pell in Ballarat.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Does that make pell a participant ?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Summary of 60 Minutes investigation:-


"A top advisor to the Pope has slammed Cardinal George Pell, saying Australia’s most senior Catholic should step down from his position at the Vatican.
Peter Saunders, who was hand-picked by Pope Francis six months ago to work as the Catholic Church’s commissioner for the protection of children, said Cardinal Pell’s position was “untenable”.
Speaking to 60 Minutes reporter Tara Brown, Mr Saunders said the cardinal’s repeated denials concerning his alleged knowledge of the occurrence of child abuse perpetrated by Catholic priests in Victoria were “cold” and “callous”.


"I personally think that his position is untenable. Because he has now a catalogue of denials – he has a catalogue of denigrating people, of acting with callousness, cold-heartedness."
Cardinal Pell, who is the Head of Finances at the Vatican, has been under fire since fresh allegations emerged last week at the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse in Ballarat, that he deliberately turned a blind eye to child molestation.
Mr Pell’s history of denials include his acknowledgement in 2013 that he had “probably” been shown a photograph of the slashed wrists of a child abuse victim, after he previously said he had never seen it.
Anthony and Chrissie Foster showed the cardinal the photo of their daughter Emma, who was abused by Father Kevin O’Donnell.
Their daughter Katie was also a victim of the priest. Emma went on to take her own life in 2008.
In a 2002 interview with 60 Minutes reporter Richard Carleton, the cardinal denied he had ever seen the picture, before changing his position two years ago.
“Probably, but let’s put this in context. Now we know that was an attempted suicide, you’ve got to understand, this was a…. the production of this photo was something sudden, I didn’t have a chance for a considered response.
"I fully understood the enormity of the suffering,” the cardinal said.
Mr Saunders, who is a victim of pedophile priests himself, said Cardinal Pell is a “massive thorn” in the side of the papacy of Pope Francis.
“I think it’s critical that he is moved aside, sent back to Australia, and [that] the Pope takes the strongest action against him.
“That man has at least a moral responsibility to fly straight back and to tell the royal commission everything he knows – everything he knows in order to allay the fears that many victims and survivors feel, which is that he’s avoiding facing some very, very difficult truths, which is his past behaviour,” Mr Saunders said.
The commission Mr Saunders leads aims to establish greater accountability and transparency on child sex abuse perpetrated within the Catholic Church. Mr Saunders reports to Pope Francis directly.
Victims called on Cardinal Pell last week to front the royal commission following several claims he offered bribes or ignored warnings about Australia's worst pedophile priest, Gerald Ridsdale.
Cardinal Pell said he would co-operate with the investigations and would attend the hearings if he was asked to do so."

Read more at http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/06/01/01/28/popes-top-advisor-says-cardinal-pell-should-step-down#1qKKQYZEL162i58j.99
  JoppaJunction Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
Thanks for posting Vavegear. I missed the show.  

It certainly looks like Pell (and this is only now a matter of timing) will have to be removed from the Vatican.  The church will do this if there is any further talk that he knew and did nothing which is what we are hearing and what many of us suspect.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Now we have Melbourne Archbishop Denis Hart going public with demands for a "fair go" for Pell. A fair go for everybody would be a better idea.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The more the RC church covers up this mess the more they are killing themselves. The RC church is now basically a spent force in Australia and many western countries and the only thing making it look as good as it is is that much of its support/faithful hasn't died yet. Internally it is dying rapidly now, not enough new priests to replace those retiring, most are over 50. Another 20-30 years and a large portion of the remaining priests will be retired, dead or in jail/registered sex offender. On the odd occasion I have been past a church on Sunday, the numbers are few and very old and you are hard up finding some of the regional/suburban churchs still holding services.

I think those still chasing a christian faith are looking elsewhere, although Hinduism, Buddhist and Islam are probably getting most. But all up they are collectively still a shrinking minority.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I'm not a fan of Philip Adams, however this interview with British Catholic John Cornwell on ABC-RN that is well worth a listen: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/5375766

As for the future of the Roman Catholic Church in Australia, there tend to be 3 broad categories (apologies for the generalisations):
1) Cultural Catholic - those that tick the "Roman Catholic" box on the census, but that's about it.  The next generation of these tend to become "No Religion" or something else.
2) Congregational Catholic - they might attend church now and again, get the kids christened etc, but often don't have real convictional beliefs.  The next generation tend to become 1) above.
3) Convicted Catholic - a minority of Catholics in Australia, but they attend regularly and hold to the doctrines of the faith.

Convicted Catholics won't disappear.  But I know people who grew up as such but converted to Protestant/Charismatic Christianity for many and varied reasons....
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
While I am no fan of George, I think he will come to the Royal Commission and be invigilated. He will then go back to the Vatican and resume his No 3 spot in the Vatican and resume being Papabile.  Whacko, I am not a fan of George. (He taught me Church History yonks ago...)

Unfortunately, the former priest Ridsdale had significant memory lapses while giving evidence last week and the Chair of the Royal Commission Justice Peter McClelland, was repeatedly asking him, "Who visited you? Who coached you on how to answer the Royal Commission? Do you know we can examine your prison visitors?"

Ridsdale does not stack up, and neither will George. Google Pell and Radio National and Ridsdale and you get interviews about this so-called phone call in Ballarat and George making repeated assertions of denial. He is on record with that and he will stick to that. It is interesting that the media have conveniently overlooked George's denials online.

The real problem lies with the Consultors of Ballarat Diocese (of which George was one of five or six), the leader of whom has had a convenient stroke and cannot remember anything. Of course, he can remember enough lead Mass every Sunday in Ocean Grove.

How convenient for Bishop Mulkearns and how inconvenient for Justice Peter McClelland and the Royal Commission.

George will go back to Rome scot-free. The only place in the world where George will have bad PR will be in Australia. And the media try to reinvent themselves, sell news and cut tall poppies down. So what else is new?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
One of George's complaints about an answer he gave appearing to implicate himself was that he answered hurriedly and did not have time to give a "considered answer."  A quick, truthful, answer would have done just fine.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I'm not a fan of Philip Adams, however this interview with British Catholic John Cornwell on ABC-RN that is well worth a listen: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/5375766

As for the future of the Roman Catholic Church in Australia, there tend to be 3 broad categories (apologies for the generalisations):
1) Cultural Catholic - those that tick the "Roman Catholic" box on the census, but that's about it.  The next generation of these tend to become "No Religion" or something else.
2) Congregational Catholic - they might attend church now and again, get the kids christened etc, but often don't have real convictional beliefs.  The next generation tend to become 1) above.
3) Convicted Catholic - a minority of Catholics in Australia, but they attend regularly and hold to the doctrines of the faith.

Convicted Catholics won't disappear.  But I know people who grew up as such but converted to Protestant/Charismatic Christianity for many and varied reasons....
Carnot
Good points.

I think the RC church turn off for many Christians is apart from the never ending child abuse reports and denials is also its very entrenched and what many see as non relevant practices. Its also heavily male dominated which had driven other ideology issues in the past such as no divorce even when the man of the house comes home and bases the crap out of you every night. Not so long ago women were told its their fault and just to love him more and at the same time be a breeding machine and quietly discourage females taking major roles in the work place.

While I don't own a set of Boobs and Vagina myself, I'm sure if I was from that side of the gender pool I'd be hard up to place my faith with an organisation that protects child abusers and wife bashers, objects to contraception/abortion, objects to divorce under any circumstance, does not have a strong history of supporting equality in the work place and doesn't provide a significant female voice in the organisation or a woman you can consul with, usually it was your local priest only. How can you seek marriage guidance from someone who will never get married, have children and in theory at least ever have sex?

Other churchs have female priests, support divorce when its needed, family planning and contraception, support career women, provide female counselors that are also significant in the church and allow their church leaders to have their own families and hence understand what a family and marriage is all about.  

I think the RC Church will be like regional railway services of the past. It was there, everyone sees it as the cornerstone of the community and watches the trains go past. But in reality less and less people used it and one day it just disappeared and no one noticed but we all go and look at the stations and the abandoned ROW.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Thanks for posting Vavegear. I missed the show.  

It certainly looks like Pell (and this is only now a matter of timing) will have to be removed from the Vatican.  The church will do this if there is any further talk that he knew and did nothing which is what we are hearing and what many of us suspect.
JoppaJunction
I suspect that the fly on the wall may think Pell's appointment to the Vatican was to get him out of the spot light here in Oz in the first place.

As 574M said, Pell will most likely disappear back to the Vatican and into anonymity.

Looking back and having been educated in a Christian Brothers school, some of the Brothers remained at one school for many years, yet others seemed to be shunted between schools almost annually.

As to numbers of followers mentioned by a couple of posters, the last 20 years has seen a lot of "Christians" move sideways from many of the main stream churches. Many people have joined and are joining the 'Evangelical' churches, Paradise in Adelaide, Hillsong in Sydney and their clones around the country. How many churches do you know that are so popular they need traffic lights at their car park entrances?
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
As to numbers of followers mentioned by a couple of posters, the last 20 years has seen a lot of "Christians" move sideways from many of the main stream churches.
Pressman

That's one of the reasons why I chose to be ordained an Interfaith Minister and move beyond the dogmatic structures of Christianity. Every human being - who has inherent dignity - is a composite of mind-body-spirit. How they respond to spirit (or not) is their own choice.

A far cry from "You're going to Hell for missing Mass on Sunday!"
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Now this:-

Seven prominent Catholic officials from around Australia have written an open letter endorsing Cardinal George Pell ahead of his next appearance at the royal commission into child sexual abuse.
Five archbishops and two bishops signed the statement which described the former archbishop of Sydney as a "man of integrity who is committed to helping others".
"His style can be robust and direct; he does not wear his heart on his sleeve," the statement said.
"But underneath he has a big heart for people."
The statement also said Cardinal Pell had previously acknowledged his mistakes and apologised for the Catholic Church's handling of sexual abuse cases.
"Cardinal Pell was one of the first bishops in the world to put in place a comprehensive church response to investigate allegations of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy and to provide survivors with redress and counselling," the statement said.
"He has responded to criticisms that have been made of his handling of these matters over the years, acknowledged mistakes frankly, and apologised for them.
"We appreciate the cardinal's strong and unfailing support for the important work of the royal commission and his constant readiness to assist the royal commission whenever he is asked to do so."
The letter was signed by Archbishop of Brisbane Mark Coleridge, Archbishop of Perth Timothy Costelloe, Archbishop of Sydney Anthony Fisher, Archbishop of Hobart Julian Porteous, Archbishop of Canberra-Goulburn Christopher Prowse, Bishop of Broken Bay Peter Comensoli and Auxiliary Bishop of Sydney Terence Brady. (ABC News).

Methinks they do protest too much. What Pell did pales into insignificance compared with what he failed to do.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
What an extraordinary move by these people.  Incredible.  

Tells me the Catholic Church in Australia just does not get it.  The Royal Commission is yet to determine if Pell did any fiddling himself putting aside if you believe the commission witnesses he watched a young child being raped.

The Advisor to the Pope says his position is untenable.  Australian Catholic Heirachy support him to the end.

This really just takes the cake.  Is there something in the water in Australia?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Looking back and having been educated in a Christian Brothers school, some of the Brothers remained at one school for many years, yet others seemed to be shunted between schools almost annually.
Pressman

A number of years ago I had a GF in Tassie who had a family of teachers. One older male was known for changing schools in regional Tas every 1-3years at the departments request (this was 70-80's) as he was retired when I met him in 90's.

Rumors within the family for the reason of so many schools were as you'd expect, "questionable interaction with some children". Nothing was ever proved or the Education Dept could be bothered to investigate properly. I suspect the later.

I suspect the church was just part of the problem of society in general sticking its head in the sand. I think another poster mentioned even if things were reported back then little happened and the most likely outcome was your father went down and beat the crap out of the guy or chased them out of town at the point of a gun. The catholic church just has the added issue of preventing the bulk of its workforce from undertaking any sexual activity for their life and this runs against the grain of how the human male's brain evolved.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
I suspect the church was just part of the problem of society in general sticking its head in the sand. I think another poster mentioned even if things were reported back then little happened and the most likely outcome was your father went down and beat the crap out of the guy or chased them out of town at the point of a gun.
RTT_Rules

Agreed, pretty much a case of "What the heck can we do about this?" and putting it in the too hard basket.
The catholic church just has the added issue of preventing the bulk of its workforce from undertaking any sexual activity for their life and this runs against the grain of how the human male's brain evolved.
RTT_Rules

Sadly (for them) there is absolutely no support for this position in the Bible, on which the Catholic Church purportedly bases its beliefs. Even the one they claim as "the first Pope", Peter, was a married man according to scripture.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
George pull has said he is too sick to come out to Australia and appear before the royal commission. He is guilty.

The royal commission is scheduled to hand down in February of next year I think around the middle of the month but Odell says now he will be well enough late February.

This pell guy is sook guilty.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Catholic Church have protected Pell from the start.  Call me biased if you like but once the commission got underway he was moved to the Vatican so he could not be repatriated to Australia as a part of the Royal Commission.  Pell was based at Ballarat during the period of the alleged incidents and given his role and seniority in the Church must have known about the issues and perhaps he was involved in any cover-up.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Woah freightgate, let's be a little respectful of due process here! Now I am absolutely no fan of any organized (or disorganized) religion and I am especially no fan of the Catholic Church. In fact on Tuesday I am participating (at very short notice - and dumped into the opening position no less) in a debate of atheism vs Christianity, as an atheist physicist against presumably a bunch of miscellaneous religious people, many of which I am sure will identify as Catholic, despite probably knowing less about Catholicism than I do!

Freightgate, you are however somewhat putting the cart before the horse by claiming guilt, granted it doesn't look like being anything close to good for him, but Pell has not even spoken before the Royal Commission yet. Passing a judgement of guilt already is not something I (or you incidentally) should feel comfortable with.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
Back in the 50's my Mother wouldnt let me join the Boy Scouts because there had seemingly been an 'outbreak' of claims of Scout Masters and others in the group being involved in what is called today 'Inappropriate activity with Children'.

There has been stories coming to light of such 'activities' in Homes that were run by Protestant Groups supposedly caring for Children sent from the UK during WW2 on the pretext they were orphans when in fact they were not.

The Catholic Church is not on its own in children being molested but what is worse is when it was apparently correct, they like many of the other Groups did little if anything about it and let it continue unabated and by doing so let others think it was not wrong to participate.
Then of course they used their 'Power' over the victim berating and belittling them to think it was their fault they were being treated so and if a complaint was made, they were called Liars and trouble makers.

While some abuses' was not sexually oriented, some were poorly fed and mistreated in other ways, often being made to work at tasks beyond their age ability.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Why does George Pell remind me of Christopher Skase?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Why does George Pell remind me of Christopher Skase?
Valvegear

Are you thinking an oxygen mask might start appearing on Pell's face?

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