Southern Rail Blog - Uboats, Xplorer, Vlocity, tank cars, QR Things, etc

 
  M636C Minister for Railways


If you're on a limited budget then the Haskell model is the cheaper option (read "cheapest financially", not "cheap quality") and I expect most who purchase one will be happy with it. If you want modern versions, or rtr sound versions with working ditch lights, etc then SRM is what you'll be buying, and again most will be happy with the loco.
Poath Junction

I think your reference to "modern versions" is misleading.

It is true that Southern are modelling the units with modified cab air conditioning (the four Australia Northern units and the four ATN units and the one extra Interail unit), the only liveries that are exclusive to this group are Interail and Pacific National.

Most locomotives that remained in Western Australia did not get this cab modification, so most of the LZs did NOT have that air conditioner and those that did were the earliest conversions.

The ATN locomotives, all four of them, entered service without the modified air conditioner and all of these could be modelled correctly using the Haskell model as it stands. I have a great set of photos of all four ATN units at Appleton Dock during Easter 2000 with them gleaming like new pins in their maroon and cream, all with their WAGR air conditioners.

I compared the two models at the Liverpool Exhibition, where they were conveniently on adjacent stands. Certainly, the body detail looked as good on both versions, and the Haskell models didn't have the silver fans that I can only recall seeing on one Westrail unit (and I was living in WA from 1975 to 1978 when the scheme was introduced.)

The special one off blue Westrail scheme looked the same on both units (but I never liked that scheme).

So many current locomotives still working (like LZ 3107 in ARG orange and black) can be represented with the Haskell unit, while the PN units have been cut up...

M636C

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  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it

I think your reference to "modern versions" is misleading.

It is true that Southern are modelling the units with modified cab air conditioning (the four Australia Northern units and the four ATN units and the one extra Interail unit), the only liveries that are exclusive to this group are Interail and Pacific National.

Most locomotives that remained in Western Australia did not get this cab modification, so most of the LZs did NOT have that air conditioner and those that did were the earliest conversions.

The ATN locomotives, all four of them, entered service without the modified air conditioner and all of these could be modelled correctly using the Haskell model as it stands. I have a great set of photos of all four ATN units at Appleton Dock during Easter 2000 with them gleaming like new pins in their maroon and cream, all with their WAGR air conditioners.

I compared the two models at the Liverpool Exhibition, where they were conveniently on adjacent stands. Certainly, the body detail looked as good on both versions, and the Haskell models didn't have the silver fans that I can only recall seeing on one Westrail unit (and I was living in WA from 1975 to 1978 when the scheme was introduced.)

The special one off blue Westrail scheme looked the same on both units (but I never liked that scheme).

So many current locomotives still working (like LZ 3107 in ARG orange and black) can be represented with the Haskell unit, while the PN units have been cut up...

M636C
M636C
The problem with the available models representing current units (such as they are now) in WA is that they have a different nose; the units that ARG rebuilt in WA have lit number-boards installed on the nose below the marker lights. I'm not sure if they are in a different position on the long-hood end. This includes 3105-6 & 3109-3120 as far as I know.
They also all have a small housing above the windows that was installed when the aircon units were fitted in the early 1990s. Neither Haskell nor SRM have reproduced this version (Haskell's L261 & L3115 models are missing this feature AFAIK, but should have it - if you want to be picky, anyway).
This also matches the ATN units as they originally entered service (except not the number-boards of course).

In terms of comparisons the Haskell recreation of the blue special unit is not quite correct but that doesn't seem to have bothered anyone, there was also a different error on the SRM version although it was a much more easily fixed problem. It may be correct on the production run anyway, they haven't been sent yet.

Finally, M636C, I can tell you I had a quick look through photos that a friend sent me, all of standard Westrail orange units, and as far as I could see at a quick glance, every unit had silver fans on the roof.

Cheers
Toby
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
By "modern versions" I meant liveries and updates such as ditch lights that represent later eras (eg PN, ATN, Interail) that are only being offered by SRM at this stage. Both SRM & Haskell *could* offer many more liveries however for now only SRM has indicated a desire to produce liveries seen in the eastern states. Haskell has added one modernised version with ditch lights supplied as an add on, however making them work like SRM's will require time and skill by the purchaser.
  M636C Minister for Railways

The problem with the available models representing current units (such as they are now) in WA is that they have a different nose; the units that ARG rebuilt in WA have lit number-boards installed on the nose below the marker lights. I'm not sure if they are in a different position on the long-hood end. This includes 3105-6 & 3109-3120 as far as I know.
They also all have a small housing above the windows that was installed when the aircon units were fitted in the early 1990s. Neither Haskell nor SRM have reproduced this version (Haskell's L261 & L3115 models are missing this feature AFAIK, but should have it - if you want to be picky, anyway).
This also matches the ATN units as they originally entered service (except not the number-boards of course).

In terms of comparisons the Haskell recreation of the blue special unit is not quite correct but that doesn't seem to have bothered anyone, there was also a different error on the SRM version although it was a much more easily fixed problem. It may be correct on the production run anyway, they haven't been sent yet.

Finally, M636C, I can tell you I had a quick look through photos that a friend sent me, all of standard Westrail orange units, and as far as I could see at a quick glance, every unit had silver fans on the roof.

Cheers
Toby
"DQ2004"


Toby,

What are the dates of the photos showing the silver fans? I only have photos of one unit with silver fans among a number of photos of locomotives in that livery, and that dates to a visit to WA (either 1982 or 1984, I was there both years) which would be towards the end of the striped livery and around the time of the two large logo orange and blue liveries. Of course the silver fans might have appeared soon after I left in 1978 but they don't appear in my photos of 1975-78 when the livery was introduced. The one loco I have painted in the original livery without white edging does not seem to have silver fans either.

(It might be worth talking about the white edging... the gret tone of the orange and the blue were identical, so in a black and white photo the loco appeared a single colour. Since B&W was still used a lot in publications in the 1970s, the white edging was introduced so the livery was visible in B&W.)

I'm pretty sure that 3107 always had the illuminated numbers, with the numbers on both sides of the nose and rear as converted and LZ on the left as viewed when the class letters were reintroduced after the QR purchase.

One unit of interest was L 262 which was the last L overhauled before ZTR was added, after L260 and L268 in Yellow. It was painted in the orange and black but was never upgraded to LZ and became L 3110. But when I saw it in 2004, it had illuminated numbers, as you say under the marker lights, both reading "262" while above the marker lights it had dummy decal numbers (also 262).

I would be happy with number boards being painted on models of this period, since some of the numbers were not illuminated anyway.

The ATN locomotives did not have illuminated numbers when first in service in Victoria, and I hope Haskell produce a model of those since we seem to be stuck with the later version from the competion.

I assume L3115 was 268 when first painted yellow... There were a number of LZs painted plain orange during the changeover to QR ownership and it would be good to see them from somebody... (not 3120, of course since it has the wrong configuation for both manufacturers.)

M636C
  M636C Minister for Railways

By "modern versions" I meant liveries and updates such as ditch lights that represent later eras (eg PN, ATN, Interail) that are only being offered by SRM at this stage. Both SRM & Haskell *could* offer many more liveries however for now only SRM has indicated a desire to produce liveries seen in the eastern states. Haskell has added one modernised version with ditch lights supplied as an add on, however making them work like SRM's will require time and skill by the purchaser.
"Poath Junction"


Neither company has included the Aurizon yellow livery (which was on LZ3101 and 3104 with "QR National" lettering in NSW for quite some time). I think 3104 has been relettered Aurizon (but I an happy to be corrected on that). Also the ARG yellow with maroon stripes livery is so far unavailable. LQ3121, a loco with the nodified air conditioner, and another LZ with original air conditioner have that scheme.

So two of the most recent liveries, one used in the Eastern states, are still to appear, while people are being overloaded with locomotives from a short term lease to Victoria decades ago...

M636C
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
Toby,

What are the dates of the photos showing the silver fans? I only have photos of one unit with silver fans among a number of photos of locomotives in that livery, and that dates to a visit to WA (either 1982 or 1984, I was there both years) which would be towards the end of the striped livery and around the time of the two large logo orange and blue liveries. Of course the silver fans might have appeared soon after I left in 1978 but they don't appear in my photos of 1975-78 when the livery was introduced. The one loco I have painted in the original livery without white edging does not seem to have silver fans either.

(It might be worth talking about the white edging... the gret tone of the orange and the blue were identical, so in a black and white photo the loco appeared a single colour. Since B&W was still used a lot in publications in the 1970s, the white edging was introduced so the livery was visible in B&W.)

I'm pretty sure that 3107 always had the illuminated numbers, with the numbers on both sides of the nose and rear as converted and LZ on the left as viewed when the class letters were reintroduced after the QR purchase.

One unit of interest was L 262 which was the last L overhauled before ZTR was added, after L260 and L268 in Yellow. It was painted in the orange and black but was never upgraded to LZ and became L 3110. But when I saw it in 2004, it had illuminated numbers, as you say under the marker lights, both reading "262" while above the marker lights it had dummy decal numbers (also 262).

I would be happy with number boards being painted on models of this period, since some of the numbers were not illuminated anyway.

The ATN locomotives did not have illuminated numbers when first in service in Victoria, and I hope Haskell produce a model of those since we seem to be stuck with the later version from the competion.

I assume L3115 was 268 when first painted yellow... There were a number of LZs painted plain orange during the changeover to QR ownership and it would be good to see them from somebody... (not 3120, of course since it has the wrong configuation for both manufacturers.)

M636C
M636C
Hi,
The dates for the photos I have are mid-1980s, mostly 1985, but some 1991. Unfortunately they are not online therefore I can't share them, however there are a few images on Flickr that you could check.

Re 3107 yes I think you're right, it must be only 3108 (ex 260) that was missing lit-number-boards out of that batch.

I think the reason SRM did not do the early ATN versions was because they only lasted for approx 12-18 months (2000-2001). Personally I prefer the later ones because I wanted the named units.
Also, doing the later version meant that they only had to repaint them to get the PN and Interail units (albeit a couple of details that they chose not to add).

262 was as you say the first to be repainted in to ARG bumblebee colours but did not initially have lit-number-boards, but it did have the ditch-lights installed at that point. 268 and 260 also had ditchlights installed when first painted yellow, as you mentioned 3115 was still numbered 268 at the time, and kept that number for a little while after ARG ownership (roughly 2 years? something like that anyway).

There were as you say a few that were plain orange (and stayed plain orange I believe) after ARG became a 'QR company' and all of these had modifications too, ditch-lights if they didn't already have them, lit-number-boards and horns on the cab roof. These are 3109, 3114, 3119 & 3120.
3119 and 3120 have the same fitting above the cab-front windows as the early ARG rebuilds for the Darwin line (3101-4).
3120 of course was rebuilt from LW276 (Comalco R1002).

SRM could very easily do 3101 and 3103 in Aurizon/QRN banana colours in a second run as there are very few differences from the ARG version they are already doing. AFAIK 3104 was not repainted and the SRM version is as it was last in service. Fortunately for all of us it saw service in both WA and NSW in that condition.

Regards
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.

snip.
So two of the most recent liveries, one used in the Eastern states, are still to appear, while people are being overloaded with locomotives from a short term lease to Victoria decades ago...
M636C
SRM made it clear from the early days of the L project that a 2nd run with further liveries was expected, and they even gave their customers the opportunity to say what liveries they'd like. refer http://www.southernrailmodels.com.au/article/29th-may-2014-l-class--exhibitions--etc . The last minute addition of a 3rd 1980's era unit for Victorians in the first run indicates demand for such models had been high. Statistically speaking, it's well known by the manufacturers that NSW & Vic are where you make the money.
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
For the sake of brevity I won't re-quote all of DQ2004's interesting post above, but I'd like to pick up on just this one line:

"SRM could very easily do 3101 and 3103 in Aurizon/QRN banana colours in a second run ................. "

Models in the obsolete QRN colours are a possibility, but I think we might have to wait a while yet before we see Aurizon liveries and logos on commercially-produced RTR models of any kind, not just the gorgeous L Class. I’m no expert on these things but information published on Aurizon’s website (link below) suggests that, like many major corporates, the company has a comprehensive and fiercely protective policy around its intellectual property and copyrights.

Check out Paragraph 8.2(b) in this link, it’s pretty unambiguous: [color=#0563c1][size=3][font=Calibri]https://customer.aurizon.com.au/_layouts/15/Intermodal_Authentication/Intermodal_TermsAndConditions.aspx[/font][/size][/color]

Steve
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
snip
...but I think we might have to wait a while yet before we see Aurizon liveries and logos on commercially-produced RTR models of any kind...
sydneyshortnorth
The terms you've linked make it clear written permission is required to reproduce the copyrights and trademarks owned by Aurizon, which simply means you go through the right channels to do it. Auscision already offer the 6020 Class in Aurizon livery.

edit: Aurizon was simply a legal name change. The company still owns all the copyrights and trademarks associated with QRNational. The same legal hurdles must be jumped to reproduce artwork copyrighted by Countrylink, PN, V/line etc.
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
For the sake of brevity I won't re-quote all of DQ2004's interesting post above, but I'd like to pick up on just this one line:

"SRM could very easily do 3101 and 3103 in Aurizon/QRN banana colours in a second run ................. "

Models in the obsolete QRN colours are a possibility, but I think we might have to wait a while yet before we see Aurizon liveries and logos on commercially-produced RTR models of any kind, not just the gorgeous L Class. I’m no expert on these things but information published on Aurizon’s website (link below) suggests that, like many major corporates, the company has a comprehensive and fiercely protective policy around its intellectual property and copyrights.

Check out Paragraph 8.2(b) in this link, it’s pretty unambiguous: [color=#0563c1][size=3][font=Calibri]https://customer.aurizon.com.au/_layouts/15/Intermodal_Authentication/Intermodal_TermsAndConditions.aspx[/font][/size][/color]

Steve
sydneyshortnorth
I'm sorry to burst your bubble Steve, but SRM have already gotten permission to reproduce the Aurizon scheme and logo for their 2300 series locos, in which they are doing the Aurizon scheme and all permutations prior.
Plus as Poath Junction has pointed out Auscision are also doing models with these schemes, so no, that is simply a matter of paying some money and getting a license, which clearly has been done.

Regards

Toby
  M636C Minister for Railways

Hi,
The dates for the photos I have are mid-1980s, mostly 1985, but some 1991. Unfortunately they are not online therefore I can't share them, however there are a few images on Flickr that you could check.

Regards
DQ2004

That would support my view that the silver fans were introduced in the mid 1980s, since my earlier photos don't show them.

Possibly the locomotives used on lease in Victoria preceded this change.

I'm sure I saw these but didn't pay much attention. I did pay more attention to the red and silver GM class...

I do remember the VR "Radio Equipped" decals...
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
Quote:

"I'm sorry to burst your bubble Steve, but SRM have already gotten permission to reproduce the Aurizon scheme and logo for their 2300 series locos, in which they are doing the Aurizon scheme and all permutations prior.
Plus as Poath Junction has pointed out Auscision are also doing models with these schemes, so no, that is simply a matter of paying some money and getting a license, which clearly has been done.

Regards

Toby"


Thanks Toby and Poath Junction (above), for your confident responses to my earlier post. I'm reassured that we shall all be able to enjoy the cheerful yellow and red and orange and grey (there's a song coming on!) colours of Aurizon on our model railway layouts before too long. Excellent news - bubble happily burst!

I think what raised my concern while reading the Aurizon web portal T & C was the significant, and presumably deliberate, difference between the limitations in Paragraphs 7 and 9 (on 'Copyright' and 'Restricted Use' respectively) which both acknowledge a 'written consent' route to external use of Aurizon's IP, compared to Paragraph 8's very strict and uncompromising statements protecting the Company's registered Trade Marks. Unlike Paragraphs 7 & 9, #8  makes no mention of 'written consent' for external reproduction of the marks. Nor does its unambiguous wording hint at any opportunity for fee-based licensing arrangements.

Anyway, all good as it turns out, thanks again both, and I'll watch out keenly for Rocket's announcement of the next run of his L Class. Mind you, the one I'd really like to have is the SRM own-branded example that was on display at Liverpool. For those that didn't see it, it carried the NRR/Interail livery design style, but was uniquely painted in SRM's own house colours. Beautiful, a real work of art!

Cheers,

Steve
  QR-INTERAIL Deputy Commissioner

Location: Where else, but Queensland
Has anyone got any photos of SRM's Interail L271?

Just wondering if they did it with the John Douglas Kerr name?
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
That would support my view that the silver fans were introduced in the mid 1980s, since my earlier photos don't show them.

Possibly the locomotives used on lease in Victoria preceded this change.

I'm sure I saw these but didn't pay much attention. I did pay more attention to the red and silver GM class...

I do remember the VR "Radio Equipped" decals...
M636C
Well I was curious so I grabbed the April 1989 AMRM in which Joe Moir describes the L class.
Looking through the article it is clear that they had silver fans fan from the get-go. There are photos of two-tone blue Ls with silver fans, one of the experimental orange locos has silver fans plus 256 in the first Westrail orange scheme (without the white pinstripes) also clearly had silver fans when newly painted.

Not only that, in the article he actually specifies that the silver fans are common to all of them. I would hazard a guess that any photos which don't show them are probably simply showing a well-weathered locomotive, and that the fans are covered in grime (of which some photos in the AMRM and in my collection most definitely are).

Regarding my earlier comments on the locos with lit-numberboards, I was wrong about some of the 3109-3120 batch.
In fact three of those, 3113, 3116 and 3118 have never been repainted from Westrail orange, but have lost their blue 'vees' and only gained ditch-lights and gps/new radio's etc. on top of the late 80s early 90s mods (aircon).  All have very faded and decrepit paintwork (and are all stored now of course I believe). 3118 did gain an 'ARG - A QR Company' patch logo on top of the faded orange, but the others did not.

Re the above question on L271, I have not yet seen the sample of that, but my understanding is that it will have the John Douglas Kerr lettering.

Regards

Toby
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Has anybody actually received their L Class from Southern yet?  As I ordered mine, I did not buy any at Liverpool. was hoping as mail outs supposedly were started before Liverpool, that I might have got mine by now. Although a couple of people are going to take some time to prepare the 900+ pre-sales and get them in the post. I guess we are spoiled by Auscision who always manage to get theirs away in a week or less.
Cheers
Rod Young.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
I received 2 x ATN's in the mail a week ago, my other L's are still in production (or on a ship, in customs or whatever). A facebook update on 8/10 states "We now have in stock all three of the ATN L class and all of the Westrail orange locos, the three that ran in Victoria and L256 in original Westrail orange with blue, plus L269 in Westrail orange.
The rest to come soon!"
  QR-INTERAIL Deputy Commissioner

Location: Where else, but Queensland
Thanks Toby re L271.

So with "the rest to come soon" technically they haven't being delivered so one would assume the pre-order price should still be applicable for those models still in production????
  gomer Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Unfortunately Rod, SRM like to send out to the shop fronts first as well. Happened last year with my Vlocity, SRM ended up having to get a shop to send back a VL50 as they'd oversold them, even though I'd had it preordered for over 2 years. Go figure.
  Poath Junction Chief Commissioner

Location: In front of a computer most of the time.
L class discount offers expired 31/8, refer http://www.southernrailmodels.com.au/article/order-deadline-last-chance
  QR-INTERAIL Deputy Commissioner

Location: Where else, but Queensland
Fair enough.
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Unfortunately Rod, SRM like to send out to the shop fronts first as well. Happened last year with my Vlocity, SRM ended up having to get a shop to send back a VL50 as they'd oversold them, even though I'd had it preordered for over 2 years. Go figure.
gomer
Thanks Gomer.
I guess I am not going to object to the shop keeper making some money Smile And as my L Class will be of the variety that ran in contract in Victoria, I will just have to be patient. Just interested in seeing if the roll out actually started yet, as I have a roadside delivery and the box is a long way from home. I get rather nervous when  I have a big parcel arriving.
Cheers
Rod
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
Went into Hobbyland in Hornsby this morning to buy new track cutters and came out with L251 (Pacific National) as well - ooops!!

Abfab - enjoying already!

Steve
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Went into Hobbyland in Hornsby this morning to buy new track cutters and came out with L251 (Pacific National) as well - ooops!!

Abfab - enjoying already!

Steve
sydneyshortnorth
So I guess if the shops have got them, then my one might have gone missing?  Has anybody actually received them in the mail yet?
My order is for a DCC sound one, so are any sound versions out there yet?
I am fairly sure the ones sold at Liverpool were air freighted in. and  all the pre-ordered ones will get posted in November??
But posting was supposed to have started a week before Liverpool, and none of those I know who are waiting have received anything yet.
Not that upset, but it seems to be a really long post out, even for a one man show Very Happy
Cheers
Rod
  GT46C-ACe Assistant Commissioner

Location: Gold Coast QLD
Hobbyco in the Queen Victoria Building has had the SRM Ls since atleast Liverpool (I hadn't looked before then) so they should be out and about?
  sydneyshortnorth Train Controller

Location: On the 1 in 40.
Hobbyco in the Queen Victoria Building has had the SRM Ls since atleast Liverpool (I hadn't looked before then) so they should be out and about?
GT46C-ACe
You're right GT, some versions of SRM's excellent L Class have indeed been here since Liverpool but others, including the Pacific National examples that terrified my credit card this morning, have only just come in.

Cheers, Steve

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