NSW Landmark Signal - JHCRN

 
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Does anybody have any information regarding the dimensions of the current Landmark Signals used by John Holland Country Rail Network (JHCRN) including the location sign below the triangle as per this example by James Brook on Flickr at Armatree



Overall dimensions of the Landmark Triangle and the Location name plate are sought for a modelling project, Have made contact with JHCRN but no avail to date, thought someone here might know someone who may even have a drawing perhaps?

Thanks in advance.

Regards

Catchpoint

Sponsored advertisement

  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
The nearest constant in both those pictures is the track which is 4 feet 8 1/2 Inches and the pole used in both cases looks about 50 MM, so using those measurements  maybe you can work out the signs from that.
I would guess each side of the Landmark would be between 30cm to 45 cm and the Yard Limit board between 25CM and 30 cm square.

In both cases they would be retro reflective.

I think depending on what scale your using, you have have to make it whatever size LOOKS correct rather than being true to scale.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Strictly speaking, that is not a Landmark sign, it is a Location sign, the difference being, a Landmark consists of an open triangle, with no name below it, the Location is a solid triangle with the name plate either directly attached to the bottom of the triangle, or a separate plate underneath the triangle as shown in your photo.

ARTC have published online a detailed list of signal plate dimensions, mast heights, etc, but I've not found the dimensions for the Location or Landmark signs as yet. The file I think they're hidden in comes up with a 404 Error.

Even better, John Holland have actually published the details of it, under standard CRN SE 003, but it refers to a drawing number, that I haven't been able to find yet...
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
This 'Location' sign is something new introduced by John Holland as nothing like that existed under the previous system except those mounted on a Ground Frame or remote Telephone.

I did notice with that 'Location' sign is that it appears small enough to fit inside the old style landmark.

It makes me wonder if having such a sign was the result of a 'Discussion' I had with the then Bathurst District Signals Engineer who was involved in creating a Communications/signaling/Train Order system as he told me the current thought was to remove all fixed signals in Country locations.
One of the problems giving them difficulties was using a GPS on a train in a siding because while it showed the location, it wasnt accurate enough to show which line the Train was occupying.
While this method of Signalling isnt new by any means, my thoughts were that a Driver needed to have some sort of physical object to relate to when crossing or arriving at.

On single line out in the middle of nowhere, why do you need to place a notice board announcing 'Station/Shunting/Yard Limits' other than to clearly define an area that allows train movements to done safely?
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
This 'Location' sign is something new introduced by John Holland as nothing like that existed under the previous system except those mounted on a Ground Frame or remote Telephone.

I did notice with that 'Location' sign is that it appears small enough to fit inside the old style landmark.

On single line out in the middle of nowhere, why do you need to place a notice board announcing 'Station/Shunting/Yard Limits' other than to clearly define an area that allows train movements to done safely?
gordon_s1942
That is not correct. Location signs have been around for more than a decade - when I did my initial Safeworking in 2005 we covered them when learning Train Orders, and I'm sure we had them on the Northwest when I was there.

As to why you need it, probably for the same reasons there are signal reminder signs throughout the network, with disaggregation of the railways, the level of training is not consistent enough across various operators, and it isn't just train drivers, track vehicle operators may be working over that section for only the second or third time ever...
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

This 'Location' sign is something new introduced by John Holland as nothing like that existed under the previous system except those mounted on a Ground Frame or remote Telephone.

I did notice with that 'Location' sign is that it appears small enough to fit inside the old style landmark.

On single line out in the middle of nowhere, why do you need to place a notice board announcing 'Station/Shunting/Yard Limits' other than to clearly define an area that allows train movements to done safely?
That is not correct. Location signs have been around for more than a decade - when I did my initial Safeworking in 2005 we covered them when learning Train Orders, and I'm sure we had them on the Northwest when I was there.

As to why you need it, probably for the same reasons there are signal reminder signs throughout the network, with disaggregation of the railways, the level of training is not consistent enough across various operators, and it isn't just train drivers, track vehicle operators may be working over that section for only the second or third time ever...
KRviator
I agree, I was part of the initial roll out of train orders, initially from Orange to Dubbo, I was a train controller and helped train the Orange Train Controllers, track staff, and drivers who would operate in  that corridor.

Initially we had a core group of pilot drivers to assist in the implementation, but certainly the signage was installed by  late 1996
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
I finished up in 1994 after 36 years, most of which was as a Signalman and I can assure that prior to that 'Location' signs did NOT exist as they are shown today.
I have a copy of the General Appendix part 2 dated 3 September 1967 which is almost identical to the last one published in the 80's covering Signalling etc.
Train Order working was just being trialed west of Orange to Dubbo specifically for the XPT when I left mid 1994.
We knew Train Order working was to be introduced  but only Guards and Drivers or those in the operational areas had received any  relevant instructions on how it was to be operated.
  catchpoint Assistant Commissioner

Location: At the end of a loop
Thanks to NSWR Cars and @KRviator for your informative replies and assistance, much appreciated.

Regards,

Catchpoint
  Shed_Rat Train Controller

Location: 'A' Shop - Swindon Works
If they have used a similar size to a road "Give Way" sign, it could be either of the 3 sizes 750h x 866w, 900h or 1200h. Sizes as per AS 1743 Road Signs - Specifications.
  BigLuke Beginner

Location: Dubbo, NSW, Australia
The document you're after can be found at the following link:

http://website.crn.mmginteractive.com.au/Documents.asp?ID=149&Action=Download&ResourceID=619

That is located on the following website, which contains the Signalling Equipment Specifications:

http://website.crn.mmginteractive.com.au/Documents.asp?ID=149&Title=Signal-Standards---Equipment-Specifications

Should all be public facing. Doesn't look like I can attach files to the post but if I can figure something out if necessary.

Edit: I misunderstood which particular document you couldn't access. M05-070 is a signal branch drawing circa mid 1970s which is held at the Sydney Trains Planroom. I don't seem to have a copy of this myself, but if you were particularly motivated I believe they usually charge about $100 to supply drawings.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: bevans, BigLuke, KRviator, theanimal

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.