VLine to run shorter trains after finding wheel wear fault

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 14 Jan 2016 23:25
  freightgate Minister for Railways

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Can someone please post pics?
vlocity27
Try this - no guarantee!

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/the-vline-wheel-disaster-an-insiders-view
  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

The network has become a shambles and the people this morning at southern cross dealing with buses was most unsightly. When are we going to hear the plan from the minister?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The politicians and the media are now bleating about delays and disruptions and Vline is making all sorts of platitudes about safety is foremost blah blah.

No one is asking the REAL QUESTION which is how and who allowed the worn wheels to remain in traffic in a dangerous condition in the first place and for how long that situation applied. NONE OF THE PROBLEM HAPPENED OVERNIGHT.
  bartaxr8 Junior Train Controller
  perwaynut Deputy Commissioner

Location: In the Land of the Mighty Hawks, and our favourite footy President Jeff
Having seen some photos of a worn Vlo wheel this week, I'm amazed there wasn't a derailment and/or catastrophic accident.  A bullet has been dodged but it should never have gotten this bad.
Carnot
It takes a fair bit to derail a train, and for that derailment to be due to predominately wear related issues you need to have a few things go wrong first. Wheels and rail have condemning limits. If the condemning limits were not met, it should be okay. I've seen some very worn rail in my time, and what may look risky at first glance is not.

If you are going to be concerned, I'd be worried about the things that can't be easily seen or predicted, or systemic issues that encourage human induced failures. Most of the accidents from wear related issues have occurred and lessons have been learnt. That is why we have condemning limits.
  adrian24 Beginner

In regard to increase flange/wheel wear in Victoria, This is nothing new to me here in NSW, This problem was going on here over 20 years ago with the introduction of concrete sleepers and harden head rail.
Some attempt to fix this problem on DD interurban cars was to re profile the wheel/flange from full to 7/8 flange to give more lateral clearance on curves.
Some have speculated the problem in Victoria is a result of new track work on a new fly over in the metro area of Melbourne.
This maybe one area of the cause, but I suspect its more deep seated than that, "question" HOW MUCH TRACK DOES THESE RAILCARS OPERATE ON THAT HAS CONCRETE SLEEPERS AND HARDEN HEAD RAIL.
I give you a example I experienced when centre manager at a Sydney train maintenance centre in 1998.
A L set (2 car emu) was despatched to run around the then newly open Olympic loop at Homebush after a GI. (general inspection), wheel/flange profile are examined at this inspection, at that time the report on my desk showed a minor flange wear 1 or 2 mm.
A week later I received a phone call advising me that the set was failed after a brake inspection at Flemington due to condemned flanges.
After discussing this with my opposite number at this centre he advised that the set had only been operating on the Olympic loop.
I suggested that something must be wrong with the track.
Two hours later after another phone call he advised me he had walked the track and found metal fillings on the ballast/sleepers.
A week later I was advised that the cause was due to the rail head profile had been incorrectly ground by a contractor prior to the track been opened.
At that time a rail grinding machine had been sent from the hunter valley to grind the rail over a weekend, the machine wheel grinding wheels were set for coal/freight rail profile, yes thats right, WRONG PROFILE, at that time there were three rail grinding profile in place for harden head rail, coal/freight profile, passenger profile and a intermediate profile where both passenger and freight operate.
After the rail was reground to passenger profile and grease pots added no further problems.
This information may assist the management of V/LINE to over come the present disaster.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Train Controller

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
Very good post as now I think I understand the problem but I do not understand why Victoria is so up in arms?
  randomnarwhal Locomotive Driver

Very good post as now I think I understand the problem but I do not understand why Victoria is so up in arms?
NSWGR8022
Its the culmination of a series of issues. When the RRL was opened, punctuality times dropped within a week to their lowest values in a long time. The first XPT from Sydney derailed on the way in, due to an incorrectly designed DG turnout. After this, speed limits were imposed of 40kmh, slowing the trip further. When the new Geelong branch was opened, carriages were taken off the Ballarat line to run a more frequent timetable, resulting in severely overcrowded trains and much complaint from Ballarat people. Now that trains are being taken out of service ostensibly due to the RRL, there are the typical comments about it being a waste of money and how Vline are responsible for taxpayers and how much better it would all be if Kennett hadn't buggarised the system etc etc.
  adrian24 Beginner

I forgot to mention that the full flange to 7/8 flange on DD interurbans was discontinued as far as I know with the introduction of a new wheel profile around 2003 called TP2.
On a separate issue regarding the fall out rate on wheel wear, are these cars in question fitted with single wear or multi wear wheels, if they are fitted with the latter don't they have a wheel turning pit lathe to turn the wheels back to standard without the nonsense of removing wheel sets from bogies/cars to replace the worn wheels, or is it the case as some have speculated this problem has been happening for a while and an increase of wheel turns from high flange wear has resulted in a premature life expire of the wheel set, as occurred with the DD interurban where a full wheel 940mm DIA was reduced to 870 condemned DIA size in around 12 months due to increase wheel turns.
An example of normal wear of a wheel on the Tangara fleet from new wheel to first turn, was between 14 to 18 months this was with a full flange, after the first turn with now a 7/8 flange the next turn was 12 to 14 months, less metal had to be removed to obtain a 7/8 flange but the time frame between turns was also reduced.
I might also add that some comments that the rail gauge is not the main cause alone could be correct, it can be a combination of issues of incorrect wheel profile to rail profile, the centre distance between bogies on a car to the curves being negotiated on any given point of the track, lack of lubrication,wheels of different DIA on the same axle, yes it does happen, bogie tracking, if these cars are fitted with self steering bogies (no centre casting), incorrect super elevation of track on tight curves at low speed, as was discovered on Cowan bank NSW, after a track up grade, that was causing increase flange loading and freight train failures on the accending grade.
Each one of these items have to be eliminated before a final cause or a series of faults are identified and corrected, in other words its going to take along time to address the problem let alone manage the current situation of keeping the fleet available, I should know, with the series of engineering blunders, and design faults (Tangara draw gear failure) incorrect bearings fitted by the private contractor to gearboxes on the suburban fleet, although I still clearly remember the daily stress of wondering what next will go wrong, we should remember those responsible for the maintenance of these cars will be having the same nightmares.
As for the privatisation issue, well we are all stuck with it, once the decision was taken, the in house knowledge that once was there, was lost, now the new operators have to learn it all over again.
  NSWGR8022 Chief Train Controller

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
The rail grinder is working level crossing out Dandenong way today.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Having seen some photos of a worn Vlo wheel this week, I'm amazed there wasn't a derailment and/or catastrophic accident.  A bullet has been dodged but it should never have gotten this bad.
It takes a fair bit to derail a train, and for that derailment to be due to predominately wear related issues you need to have a few things go wrong first. Wheels and rail have condemning limits. If the condemning limits were not met, it should be okay. I've seen some very worn rail in my time, and what may look risky at first glance is not.

If you are going to be concerned, I'd be worried about the things that can't be easily seen or predicted, or systemic issues that encourage human induced failures. Most of the accidents from wear related issues have occurred and lessons have been learnt. That is why we have condemning limits.
perwaynut
Are you saying that the wheel/flange profiles that we have seen in the photos are within acceptable limits, please?

These profiles, coupled with poor track and other maintenance, must surely be risky if not actually dangerous.

I think that we are concerned at the systemic issues that have encouraged/allowed the human failures that have led to the situation we face at the moment.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Very good post as now I think I understand the problem but I do not understand why Victoria is so up in arms?
NSWGR8022
Simply because the situation is potentially bloody dangerous.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Took this mornings AM flagship from Bendigo.  Usual 5 car V/lo reduced to a 3 car set.  Funnily enough far fewer Gisborne commuters jumped on-board.  Either they've given up on V/line or took the bustitution coach instead.

Not surprisingly they've deferred the timetable changes that were meant to happen this Sunday: https://www.vline.com.au/News-Alerts/News-Articles/Adjusted-timetable-from-31-January
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
On the Ballarat line at present, the only UP peak train, the 6:37 ex Ballan is usually a 6 car VLocity and co-incidentally my usual service.

What I've found is many pax are altering their work day to go in early on that service to avoid the slower and more cramped bus. This morning (Thursday) the train was 5 cars and all seats were taken once the Ballan pax found the random seats available.

No Marshans found a seat and despite the local Marsh services not being badly affected by the current issues, all pax who boarded stood for their journey rather than travelling by a slower train or worse...a bus.

Last night (Thursday) the only DOWN peak service was the former flagship, a 5 carriage VLocity 16:33 train was full and standing out of SXS. I managed a seat in the luggage rack, however by Footscray and Sunshine it became the Mumbai Express and by Ballan, Ballarat bound pax had to alight to allow other pax to get off the train.

The free fares, no peak travel restrictions and the school holidays have combined to make the 16:33 a very full train indeed.

Mike.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

On the Ballarat line at present, the only UP peak train, the 6:37 ex Ballan is usually a 6 car VLocity and co-incidentally my usual service.

What I've found is many pax are altering their work day to go in early on that service to avoid the slower and more cramped bus. This morning (Thursday) the train was 5 cars and all seats were taken once the Ballan pax found the random seats available.

No Marshans found a seat and despite the local Marsh services not being badly affected by the current issues, all pax who boarded stood for their journey rather than travelling by a slower train or worse...a bus.

Last night (Thursday) the only DOWN peak service was the former flagship, a 5 carriage VLocity 16:33 train was full and standing out of SXS. I managed a seat in the luggage rack, however by Footscray and Sunshine it became the Mumbai Express and by Ballan, Ballarat bound pax had to alight to allow other pax to get off the train.

The free fares, no peak travel restrictions and the school holidays have combined to make the 16:33 a very full train indeed.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Giving free travel whilst a third of the VL fleet is off the rails is just idiotic .  Much better to give Myki  commuter travellers some extra $  credit travel value  NOW .  Then when issue is finally sorted out and all VL back in service THAT is the time to give free travel for a fortnight .  Giving free travel now whilst short of stock just creates further overcrowd issues, and pxxxxs infrequent travellers off as they end up on VBus when they expect to be on a train . At least commonsense has prevailed and revised VL tt has been deferred including extra Bendigo trips which would have embarassingly been  VBus from day one .
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Giving free travel whilst a third of the VL fleet is off the rails is just idiotic .  Much better to give Myki  commuter travellers some extra $  credit travel value  NOW .  Then when issue is finally sorted out and all VL back in service THAT is the time to give free travel for a fortnight .  Giving free travel now whilst short of stock just creates further overcrowd issues, and pxxxxs infrequent travellers off as they end up on VBus when they expect to be on a train . At least commonsense has prevailed and revised VL tt has been deferred including extra Bendigo trips which would have embarassingly been  VBus from day one .
kuldalai

I disagree...most pax are savvy enough to work out which service will be a bus or a train and those who don't enquire first don't care anyway.

Many pax subscribe to V/Line's SMS service and know the night before which services the next day are operating by which mode of travel.

Mike.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

The CEO of V Line has "resigned" today. No doubt others will follow him out the door in the very near future.
  doyle Junior Train Controller

So no accountability he just resigns brilliant

Doyle
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Giving free travel whilst a third of the VL fleet is off the rails is just idiotic .  Much better to give Myki  commuter travellers some extra $  credit travel value  NOW .  Then when issue is finally sorted out and all VL back in service THAT is the time to give free travel for a fortnight .  Giving free travel now whilst short of stock just creates further overcrowd issues, and pxxxxs infrequent travellers off as they end up on VBus when they expect to be on a train . At least commonsense has prevailed and revised VL tt has been deferred including extra Bendigo trips which would have embarassingly been  VBus from day one .

I disagree...most pax are savvy enough to work out which service will be a bus or a train and those who don't enquire first don't care anyway.

Many pax subscribe to V/Line's SMS service and know the night before which services the next day are operating by which mode of travel.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Agree with Kuldalai 100%, as posted elsewhere Vline running shorter trains on the Bendigo line and getting (anecdotally) higher numbers which they then have to provide buses for. Idiotic. Not only do the buses cost more $$$ but it gives any potential new customers a bad experience straight out of the box.

As for "most pax are savvy enough to work out which service will be a bus or a train and those who don't enquire first don't care anyway" I can tell you from listening to the pax on my overcrowded 3 car set yesterday most people had no idea what was going on and many of them didn't even know Vline was experiencing problems!

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Giving free travel whilst a third of the VL fleet is off the rails is just idiotic .  Much better to give Myki  commuter travellers some extra $  credit travel value  NOW .  Then when issue is finally sorted out and all VL back in service THAT is the time to give free travel for a fortnight .  Giving free travel now whilst short of stock just creates further overcrowd issues, and pxxxxs infrequent travellers off as they end up on VBus when they expect to be on a train . At least commonsense has prevailed and revised VL tt has been deferred including extra Bendigo trips which would have embarassingly been  VBus from day one .

I disagree...most pax are savvy enough to work out which service will be a bus or a train and those who don't enquire first don't care anyway.

Many pax subscribe to V/Line's SMS service and know the night before which services the next day are operating by which mode of travel.

Mike.
Agree with Kuldalai 100%, as posted elsewhere Vline running shorter trains on the Bendigo line and getting (anecdotally) higher numbers which they then have to provide buses for. Idiotic. Not only do the buses cost more $$$ but it gives any potential new customers a bad experience straight out of the box.

As for "most pax are savvy enough to work out which service will be a bus or a train and those who don't enquire first don't care anyway" I can tell you from listening to the pax on my overcrowded 3 car set yesterday most people had no idea what was going on and many of them didn't even know Vline was experiencing problems!

BG
BrentonGolding

If the pax on the Bendigo line are less informed about the days news than those on my line, then that's nobody's problem but their own.

So you're telling me the pax on your train just yesterday (Thursday) after a whole week of service interruptions, bustitutions and on-board announcements despite in many cases the same pax subscribing to V/Lines SMS service, were still clueless Question

....sounds to me like some poster is gilding the lily.

Mike.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
If the pax on the Bendigo line are less informed about the days news than those on my line, then that's nobody's problem but their own.

So you're telling me the pax on your train just yesterday (Thursday) after a whole week of service interruptions, bustitutions and on-board announcements despite in many cases the same pax subscribing to V/Lines SMS service, were still clueless Question

....sounds to me like some poster is gilding the lily.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Yep, heard it with my own ears. The funniest one was an older Gent who got on with his family in tow and proceeded (in a rather loud voice) to complain that Vline should put more cars on the train. And no, he was not joking. Others murmured in agreement.

I overheard another passenger complaining to the person next to them that they couldn't pay for the trip as the Myki readers at Castlemaine were broken! (they actually had bits of paper taped over them telling people not to touch on as it was free)

Oh and BTW, I don't gild the lily. I don't make sh@t up to just 'cos I don't like a point someone else is making either.

BG
  Contrillion Junior Train Controller

Location: Geelong, VIC
I just saw A66 sitting by itself in Craigieburn yard. Anyone have an idea of what its been up to?
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
I just saw A66 sitting by itself in Craigieburn yard. Anyone have an idea of what its been up to?
Contrillion
Moving damaged Vlocs to Dandenong.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I just saw A66 sitting by itself in Craigieburn yard. Anyone have an idea of what its been up to?
Moving damaged Vlocs to Dandenong.
ARodH

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2002373.htm#2002373

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