Wrong running direction Mt Druitt, NSW on 12 March 2015

 
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
On 12 March 2015 the driver of a Sydney Train passenger service 165-S departed Mt Druitt station and drove the train in the wrong direction travelling in the up direction on the down suburban line. At the time of incident CA63 a freight train was on the same line heading in the down direction. Both trains were stopped before a collision could occur.
The ATSB has commenced an investigation into this accident, which will be undertaken by officers from the NSW Office of Transport Safety Investigations, under the provisions of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003. Investigators have commenced collecting evidence and statements from involved parties, which will be analysed and a draft investigation report compiled. The draft report will be forwarded to relevant parties for comment prior to the completion and release of the final report.
The investigation is continuing.





General details
Date: 12 Mar 2015 Investigation status: Active
Time: 0513 ESDT Investigation type: Occurrence Investigation
Location   (show map): Mt Druitt
State: NSW
Occurrence category: Incident
Report status: Pending Highest injury level: None
Expected completion: Sep 2015

Train details
Line operator: Sydney Trains
Train operator: Pacific National
Train registration: CA63
Type of operation: Friends
Sector: Freight
Damage to train: Nil
Departure point: Blacktown, NSW

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  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I wonder how that could have happened...

Generally Mt Druitt is a pass-though stop, so I am not sure how the driver can magically change cabs to drive the wrong way...
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Train stops in the wrong running direction aren't suppressed, and this may cause the rear trip gear to trip and bring the train to a stop, a bit like the Ashfield incident going down the up line incident a decade or so ago.

Once going in the wrong direction, the driver may misread the signals on the parallel down line, 3.66m away, as if they were his own signals, a bit like the Taunton, UK, accident c1940, and also the Ashfield incident mentioned above.
  piepants Chief Train Controller

Location: Newcastle
I wonder how that could have happened...

Generally Mt Druitt is a pass-though stop, so I am not sure how the driver can magically change cabs to drive the wrong way...
s3_gunzel
Is it possible that he was originally heading in the up direction on the up line, and incorrectly set points have put him on the down line towards the freight train? I'm no expert on signalling, but I find it pretty strange that a driver would change cabs and go the wrong way.
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I'm not sure that's a possible move at Mt Druitt. To my knowledge there isn't a set of points that allows that move there (but I will check and confirm tomorrow).

Edit: Having now checked, the DRKD I have doesn't have a crossover at Mount Druitt...
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

Until everyone knows the FULL story, why not stop the speculation. It is obvious from the previous posts that no one that has posted so far has any idea what happened. As this is the subject of an investigation that could involve a number of staff, why not wait until it is concluded?
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
Because we're human and interested in trying to work things out for ourselves, and at least eliminate the obvious possibilities. This seems to be one of those cases of nothing obvious, so the good old head scratching is being done.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
I'm just wondering what good a bunch of gunzels speculating on RP will do other than give the media a bunch of half-ar$sed theories to go off, the same as that Geoff Thomas twat does for aviation?

The answer? Nothing at all. Wait for the report.

Very few people here have worked a train for a living, that much is glaringly obvious. Leave it to the experts.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
So, the final report is now out and it says the Driver stuffed up. Contributing to that was that he had spent several hours trying to get the train up and running and he had been awake since 0800 the previous day, coming in off standby at 2100, with the event occurring at 0512. As part of the troubleshooting process, he had changed ends several times.

What is more disturbing is the Guard, knowing the train was going the wrong way, did nothing at all, except watch the platform recede into the distance, until the Signaller called the Driver and told him to stop. Despite Waterfall, it would appear there is still much to be done about the training of Guards with respect to pulling the tail, or questioning the Driver. Might as well just get rid of them altogether and run network-wide ATP if they aren't going to intervene when they're really needed... Rolling Eyes

It is interesting to note the Driver considered himself fatigued, but Sydney Trains thought differently - using FAID as the justification mind you - but there is no reference to actual or forecast FAID scores to justify the discrepancy.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I wonder how that could have happened...

Generally Mt Druitt is a pass-though stop, so I am not sure how the driver can magically change cabs to drive the wrong way...
s3_gunzel
here is a useful tip, read the report and wonder no more
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Until everyone knows the FULL story, why not stop the speculation. It is obvious from the previous posts that no one that has posted so far has any idea what happened. As this is the subject of an investigation that could involve a number of staff, why not wait until it is concluded?
Throughwestmail
is the ATSB report not the full story, what more are you waiting for?
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I wonder how that could have happened...

Generally Mt Druitt is a pass-though stop, so I am not sure how the driver can magically change cabs to drive the wrong way...
Is it possible that he was originally heading in the up direction on the up line, and incorrectly set points have put him on the down line towards the freight train? I'm no expert on signalling, but I find it pretty strange that a driver would change cabs and go the wrong way.
piepants
another post wh*ore trying to get his count up, look at a track and signal diagram, there are no points there
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Train stops in the wrong running direction aren't suppressed, and this may cause the rear trip gear to trip and bring the train to a stop, a bit like the Ashfield incident going down the up line incident a decade or so ago.

Once going in the wrong direction, the driver may misread the signals on the parallel down line, 3.66m away, as if they were his own signals, a bit like the Taunton, UK, accident c1940, and also the Ashfield incident mentioned above.
awsgc24
again if you read the report, the train was travelling in the wrong running direction on the DOWN line, ergo an UP Movement, any signal he may or may not have seen would be an Up signal.

its not rocket science people.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Train stops in the wrong running direction aren't suppressed, and this may cause the rear trip gear to trip and bring the train to a stop, a bit like the Ashfield incident going down the up line incident a decade or so ago.

Once going in the wrong direction, the driver may misread the signals on the parallel down line, 3.66m away, as if they were his own signals, a bit like the Taunton, UK, accident c1940, and also the Ashfield incident mentioned above.
awsgc24
in the wrong running direction, there are no train stops, the trip mechanism is on the wrong side for a train stop that is at a signal
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

I am not here to blame the CityRail driver or the freight train driver

I would say it had to been a point failure at St Marys, the CityRail driver may have had to turn back forcing him/her to travel in the wrong direction to get back onto the UP main rather than the UP suburban line but was too late to get there or it could have been a brake failure which could have caused a roll back or the driver had mistakenly flicked the reverse switch without realising

Or maybe the freight train had to go on the UP main, again the points at St Marys had failed, normally all freight and countrylink traffic are put onto the UP main track during peak hours due to more suburban traffic are on the up and down suburban lines

I just believe it would be the set of points that failed to switch for either the CityRail or Fright Train driver's
They are both really lucky as no collision had happened
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I am not here to blame the CityRail driver or the freight train driver

I would say it had to been a point failure at St Marys, the CityRail driver may have had to turn back forcing him/her to travel in the wrong direction to get back onto the UP main rather than the UP suburban line but was too late to get there or it could have been a brake failure which could have caused a roll back or the driver had mistakenly flicked the reverse switch without realising

Or maybe the freight train had to go on the UP main, again the points at St Marys had failed, normally all freight and countrylink traffic are put onto the UP main track during peak hours due to more suburban traffic are on the up and down suburban lines

I just believe it would be the set of points that failed to switch for either the CityRail or Fright Train driver's
They are both really lucky as no collision had happened
cityrail-rulez
again read the report, the train had been delayed initially with severe storm damage and then there were problems with the train, requiring the driver to change ends 7 times.

its not that hard, read the bloody report.

there was no point failure

there was no brake failure

If the driver had flicked the reverse switch ( in 42 years in the industry, i have never heard it referred to as that) he would have been at the St Marys end, when in fact he was at the Blacktown end.

you postulate that the freight might have had to go on the Up main, but give no reason.

your post that is filled with wild supposition presents you as a bit of a dill

READ THE BLOODY REPORT
  wally-wowser1 Train Controller

Location: overlooking the Mt vic washaway on Soldiers Pinch
No wonder these pages have gone to the dogs over the last 12 months or so . Read things  before opening mouth but first up engage brains .
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
I am not here to blame the CityRail driver or the freight train driver

I would say it had to been a point failure at St Marys, the CityRail driver may have had to turn back forcing him/her to travel in the wrong direction to get back onto the UP main rather than the UP suburban line but was too late to get there or it could have been a brake failure which could have caused a roll back or the driver had mistakenly flicked the reverse switch without realising

Or maybe the freight train had to go on the UP main, again the points at St Marys had failed, normally all freight and countrylink traffic are put onto the UP main track during peak hours due to more suburban traffic are on the up and down suburban lines

I just believe it would be the set of points that failed to switch for either the CityRail or Fright Train driver's
They are both really lucky as no collision had happened
cityrail-rulez
I've lost count of the number of times I've thrown the reverser the wrong way. It's even worse when you do it in 8N, all sorts of wonderful alarms come up and you get a wicked bunny-hop going as the wheels lock up then start spinning backwards, so I can see how he might have got his FWD/REV mixed up. Dropping it into reverse intentionally is actually better for the loco than using dynamic brakes as you don't have the wear and tear on the dyno grids!

The Driver would have known the points failed ahead of time, as ATRICS would have told him via the MetroNet radio, and he would have got an alarm on the TOS screen.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I am not here to blame the CityRail driver or the freight train driver

I would say it had to been a point failure at St Marys, the CityRail driver may have had to turn back forcing him/her to travel in the wrong direction to get back onto the UP main rather than the UP suburban line but was too late to get there or it could have been a brake failure which could have caused a roll back or the driver had mistakenly flicked the reverse switch without realising

Or maybe the freight train had to go on the UP main, again the points at St Marys had failed, normally all freight and countrylink traffic are put onto the UP main track during peak hours due to more suburban traffic are on the up and down suburban lines

I just believe it would be the set of points that failed to switch for either the CityRail or Fright Train driver's
They are both really lucky as no collision had happened
I've lost count of the number of times I've thrown the reverser the wrong way. It's even worse when you do it in 8N, all sorts of wonderful alarms come up and you get a wicked bunny-hop going as the wheels lock up then start spinning backwards, so I can see how he might have got his FWD/REV mixed up. Dropping it into reverse intentionally is actually better for the loco than using dynamic brakes as you don't have the wear and tear on the dyno grids!

The Driver would have known the points failed ahead of time, as ATRICS would have told him via the MetroNet radio, and he would have got an alarm on the TOS screen.
KRviator
Bzzzt incorrect ATRICS does not told him anything, ATRICS is for the Network Controller who MAY have passed him a message. But again, please (sobbing quietly into his English Breakfast Tea) read the report, there was NO point failure, there are no Points at Mt Druitt.
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

Ok, I will retract my earlier statement... I had thought that the CityRail driver was coming from St Marys end
as stated by "theanimal" it started at the Blacktown end

So I have a new theory

The CityRail train was travelling on the "Down suburban" like normal, and the control had to put him onto either platform 3, 4 or 5 at Blacktown due to the "Down Suburban" track could had been occupied at that time by either another CityRail train, freight train or a CountryLink train (Depending on the time) or platform 6 at Blacktown had to been temporarily closed

Then once the CityRail train had departed Blacktown, the control had forgotten to flick the points in the correct order to allow the CityRail train to continue onto the "Down Suburban" track, or the control could have correctly flicked the points in the correct order but speeding over the points can flick them incorrectly (YES, this can happen it's just that I don't know how to explain it)

So stopping at Doonside, Rooty Hill and Mt Druit on the WRONG track it would have been up to Penrith control to put the freight train onto the UP MAIN at St Marys end, and NOTICED that the CityRail train travelling in the wrong direction which would have been correccted at St Marys

Also as stated by "theanimal" that the train had problems, the first thing is that the train would have TERMINATED at Blacktown as all the train sensors and alarms would have informed the driver telling him/her that their train is defected

however on a note, it is the driver's duty to check to see if his/her train is safe prior to departure from the depot and all trains are fully tested overnight I have seen this happen regularly at Sydney terminal from when the last timetabled train stops running until the first train that runs the next morning "Very interesting"

I am not trying to upset anyone here, just having my opinion put accross like many other users that's what Railpage is all about so don't yell at me mate lol I'm just trying to have a go as to what could have been the reason why the train was travelling in the wrong direction... Keep flaming off the boards and make it fun for everyone to have a go Wink

Fair enough, I may not know what I am talking about sometimes and may not know how to express my words correctly but I am trying guy's Smile
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
I wonder how that could have happened...

Generally Mt Druitt is a pass-though stop, so I am not sure how the driver can magically change cabs to drive the wrong way...
here is a useful tip, read the report and wonder no more
theanimal
Now that it's been released; you mean? Check the datestamp on the original post.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Train stops in the wrong running direction aren't suppressed, and this may cause the rear trip gear to trip and bring the train to a stop, a bit like the Ashfield incident going down the up line incident a decade or so ago.

Once going in the wrong direction, the driver may misread the signals on the parallel down line, 3.66m away, as if they were his own signals, a bit like the Taunton, UK, accident c1940, and also the Ashfield incident mentioned above.
in the wrong running direction, there are no train stops, the trip mechanism is on the wrong side for a train stop that is at a signal
theanimal

The trip gear at the rear of the train is always lowered in NSW (unlike VIC) and may trip on wrong direction signals in the reverse direction if you are going more than say 20km/h. Thus you do not need any signals or trip in the reverse direction to trip the train going the wrong way. A train moving in the Up direction on a Down only line can therefore "backtrip" on the Down trainstops.

When Down electric trains started to use the Down Illawarra dive at Redfern, they kept on tripping on an Up signal whose train stop wasn't "supressed". Circuits had to be altered to lower this Up trainstop on the Down line to avoid trains being brought to a annoying standstill. The turnouts in this are probably about 25km/h.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Ok, I will retract my earlier statement... I had thought that the CityRail driver was coming from St Marys end
as stated by "theanimal" it started at the Blacktown end

So I have a new theory

The CityRail train was travelling on the "Down suburban" like normal, and the control had to put him onto either platform 3, 4 or 5 at Blacktown due to the "Down Suburban" track could had been occupied at that time by either another CityRail train, freight train or a CountryLink train (Depending on the time) or platform 6 at Blacktown had to been temporarily closed

Then once the CityRail train had departed Blacktown, the control had forgotten to flick the points in the correct order to allow the CityRail train to continue onto the "Down Suburban" track, or the control could have correctly flicked the points in the correct order but speeding over the points can flick them incorrectly (YES, this can happen it's just that I don't know how to explain it)

So stopping at Doonside, Rooty Hill and Mt Druit on the WRONG track it would have been up to Penrith control to put the freight train onto the UP MAIN at St Marys end, and NOTICED that the CityRail train travelling in the wrong direction which would have been correccted at St Marys

Also as stated by "theanimal" that the train had problems, the first thing is that the train would have TERMINATED at Blacktown as all the train sensors and alarms would have informed the driver telling him/her that their train is defected

however on a note, it is the driver's duty to check to see if his/her train is safe prior to departure from the depot and all trains are fully tested overnight I have seen this happen regularly at Sydney terminal from when the last timetabled train stops running until the first train that runs the next morning "Very interesting"

I am not trying to upset anyone here, just having my opinion put accross like many other users that's what Railpage is all about so don't yell at me mate lol I'm just trying to have a go as to what could have been the reason why the train was travelling in the wrong direction... Keep flaming off the boards and make it fun for everyone to have a go Wink

Fair enough, I may not know what I am talking about sometimes and may not know how to express my words correctly but I am trying guy's Smile
cityrail-rulez
he stupid, it burns.

Look its apparent that for whatever reason you are unwilling to read the report, but choose rather to blithely  forge ahead throwing increasingly bizarre geusses to the lft and right.

These are the FACTS garnered from reading the bloody report and from the newspapers as the events unfolded.

the train had departed Blacktown on the Down Suburban as tabled. Following a severe electrical storm, the train was stationary at Mt Druitt for several hours, during which time there was a sustained removal of the overhead, and then problems in getting the train functional.

The incident crew arrived at Mt Druitt with the expectation that they would relieve the train, then proceed in the normal (down) direction to St Marys where they would turn back and return to Auburn.

There were problems with getting the train to operate, and the train radio to log on, the driver changed ends 7 times. Eventually he was in the Blacktown end of the train and got the train working, departing towards Blacktown without a signal indication (there are no signals there for a wrong direction movement, the track is uni-directional)

the guard was aware that they were going in the wrong direction, but did nothing.

There was a freighter that had departed Blacktown to travel on the Down Suburban and the empty pass train was now on an opposing movement. The Network Controller contacted the driver by mobile and had him bring the train to a stand, whilst also ensuring that the freight train was bought to a stand.

there, in a nutshell is the story, there are comments etc, on fatigue managment, but they are there to be read.

Why is it so hard to read the story, rather than try and make yourself look like a pork chop with wild supposition?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Look, folks, do theanimal a favour, and quit speculating. The poor bloke has done a great job telling us what the report says, and pointing out numerous errors of fact from posters, and you still want to theorize.
(Next, I expect someone to theorize that you catch syphilis by running around naked on Walpurgis night with a hairbrush stuck in your ear.)
  Throughwestmail Train Controller

Until everyone knows the FULL story, why not stop the speculation. It is obvious from the previous posts that no one that has posted so far has any idea what happened. As this is the subject of an investigation that could involve a number of staff, why not wait until it is concluded?
is the ATSB report not the full story, what more are you waiting for?
theanimal
Rod, I thought you had more sense than to jump to conclusions! Did you look at the date that I made this post?? Something like the 25th March 2015 and at that stage the incident was still being investigated. A small apology would be appreciated, but you can still get stuck into the posters who speculate on things they know nothing about.

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