Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 13 Jan 2016 16:51
  Toby Esterhase Station Master

Today's Herald-Sun front page makes you laugh out loud. Evidently, they think we should build nothing anywhere in case someone graffitis it. Funny they weren't so worried about the exit ramps from East-West Link that were going demolish half of the far western corner of Parkville.

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  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
It's also funny in that someone thinks hoons meet under the underpass at Atherton Rd. Er no Atherton Rd doesn't go under the bridge, there's a 24/7 police station on that road and that bridge is road not rail. Perhaps they got confused by the hot rod club meets that may occur in the car park pictured as there's club rooms adjacent to it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Hopefully any elevated railway will have sound attenuating features. I know it has been there since the late Permian era, but the elevated railway just out of Southern Cross going to Flinders street seems to have been made with a noise amplifier designed in. That area seems to make an awful racket when trains operate!

Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined
3l diesel

These skybridges are concrete and noise will not be an issue. Without the level crossings there should actually be a lot less noise and the community upgrades should be a welcome addition to the suburbs.

The bridges between Flinders street and Southern cross need replacing with modern concrete versions to solve the bridge strike and noise issues.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The Government has made no hints what so ever about extra tracks on the Dandenong line !
The current project under development Is all about helping out motorists, and jaming more trains services on the tracks.

Express train paths will vanish !
Nightfire

Maybe without the hassle of having to slow down for a level crossing the express paths may open up. Especially if there are areas where an express could pass an all stops service.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Waking up this morning I can't help thinking the Andrews government in terms of transport, is lurching from one crisis to the next.  It is not necessarily what ALP governments do as much as how they do it and how they don;t do it properly.  A transport upgrade like the one released this past week should be welcomed by the community but again the way in which the government has gone about it and how they have not "as reported" engaged with the community is the issue.

What should have been a well received set of projects I am sure Andrews will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.  They have the vline crisis, they have a good wrap on level crossing works and they have the vline fiasco and an yet to be disclosed Metro trains maintenance issue, now the sky rail issue.

You will see poor delivery and execution on the Mildura SG works is my prediction.
bevans

Without level crossings to negotiate the trains could enter and leave the stations faster giving more room in the timetable for Vline express services.

If the Victorian government get the job done by 2018 then the Nimby's will be quiet on these projects and re election will be guaranteed. The trick as the current NSW government has shown is to ignore the nimby's and build the thing and bask in the glory of a completed project after it has been finished and at the next election while you have more projects ongoing. The opposition can't complain that you aren't delivering infrastructure and look like fools in the process because they were so incompetent in power.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

Without level crossings to negotiate the trains could enter and leave the stations faster giving more room in the timetable for Vline express services.
simstrain
Can not see the absence of level crossings having any Impact on the performance of stop all stations trains, coming In and out of stations.

Without express tracks, express trains traveling on the stop all stations tracks are going to have their average traveling speed governed by the average speed of the stop all stations trains.
There's no way around this without putting gapping big holes In the stop all stations trains timetable.
  skitz Chief Commissioner


Without level crossings to negotiate the trains could enter and leave the stations faster giving more room in the timetable for Vline express services. Can not see the absence of level crossings having any Impact on the performance of stop all stations trains, coming In and out of stations.

Without express tracks, express trains traveling on the stop all stations tracks are going to have their average traveling speed governed by the average speed of the stop all stations trains.
There's no way around this without putting gapping big holes In the stop all stations trains timetable.
Nightfire
Spot on Nightfire.

Now is the time to include at least one express track as the need is now.   Carrying capacity is mentioned but the all important run time is not.  Averaging around 40km/hr is ridiculous.

Strategically the time to build allowances for viaducts to carry four tracks is now.  

I would further add to this the need for standard gauge in the south east.   Given the metro tunnel and the Dandenong corridor upgrade being around the same time, allowance should be made for dual gauge out to Dandenong and connect that part of the world to the interstate freight network.   Of course this is to allow for freight to an inland port, the mythical Lyndhurst and potentially to the mythical port of Hastings.   I am expressing specifically strategic allowances.   Freight trains and tunnels are not issues that cannot be overcome.

Such allowance would be to ensure track work allows for a third rail and not necessarily installing it now.  Likewise, the viaducts for a forth track, I would imagine two x two-track viaducts being built now and only have one set of mobilisation and interruption.

I am fearful the project as it is being currently marketed, will forever make future expansion unaffordable or complicated and condemn the South Eastern Suburbs and the Gippsland region to ridiculous run times.

Can you imagine the patronage uptake if it were possible to travel from Warragul to Melbourne CBD in about and hour instead of around the 1hr45 it is now.

Where is the vision and leadership to make this happen?  As they say 'build it and they will come' .  Our opportunity is now.

All this talk about bigger trains with more seats will do bugger all for the run time.
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
I agree.

now is the time for getting the long term planning basics right.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
Attended the first community session at Hughesdale Community Centre today for the Caulfield to Dandenong Elevated Rail project, not really knowing what to expect.

I arrived right on 1:30pm when the session started and found a large group of protesters out the front handing out flyers and asking people to sign petitions.  Also noted that there were a number of signs up at properties in the area with messages against Sky Rail as I was driving to the event.

There was already a line to get in and the room was quite full of people. A number of times chants started in the room stating 'No Sky Rail'.

Despite the large group of community members present, there were also a lot of LXRA staff that were available to speak to.  Here are some things I was able to find out:


  • I asked about provision for extra 2 tracks and it was confirmed to me that the two elevated structures that are being constructed will only contain one track each and also that there is not intention to construct the extra tracks between them.  A preliminary design has been done showing 2 extra tracks, but these are to be located to the south of the two viaducts that are being constructed and not in between them.  Property acquisition will be required in some locations to facilitate this.
  • I had heard commentary that barriers will be constructed to stop people on the trains seeing into people's backyard.  I inquired what this meant as the visualisations do not appear to show high barriers that block out the windows of the train. I was told that the exact form of the barriers was still being worked on but that it was likely to be about 2.2m high which would mean that someone sitting in the train looking out the window would be able to see the horizon but nothing below it. I expressed my disappointment in this as I said it would be like looking out at a blank concrete wall similar to when you are in a trench.  So much for the aesthetic benefits of elevated rail!  The person I spoke to however said that it was important that people leave this feedback from the point of view of a rail passenger as the final height of the barriers has still not been decided.
  • I asked why the opportunity had not been taken to realign some of the roads that currently run parallel with the rail corridor to simplify intersections with the roads that cross it.  For example in Murrumbeena, Neerim Road switches from the north side of the tracks to the south side via two separate intersections.  This means that traffic has to turn briefly into Murrumbeena Road before turning back into Neerim Road and results in the traffic light sequences being less efficient and causing increased delays to buses than if the roads were realigned with a single cross-intersection.  The answer I got was that it would have impacted the design of the station forecourts, although it was noted that some additional road crossings of the rail corridor would provide some benefit.
  • I noticed on a number of the station precinct diagrams that the bike path appears to be discontinuous when it passes the station.  I was told that cyclists will be required to dismount as they pass the station forecourts to minimise conflicts with rail passengers.  I think this is a poor outcome as in my opinion the provision of a continuous direct off-road bike path would be a huge benefit for the project.
  • Lastly I asked if there was any intention to retain/reuse any of the existing railway station buildings at Carnegie and Murrumbeena as I believe that they contain some heritage value and that they are attractive structures.  I was told that the intention is that they will be simply removed/demolished and that only one of the buildings from Clayton will be retained as it is heritage listed.
I would be interested to hear of anyone else's experiences who has attended one of these community sessions.



Ross
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Strategically the time to build allowances for viaducts to carry four tracks is now.  
skitz
Apparently no provision will be made for any extra tracks as per Rossco's post - completely ridiculous. They're spending a few billion on widening the Monash (yet again) so there will now be four lanes each way from Berwick to Gardiner but they can't manage to expand the adjacent railway line... not even with one extra track so V/line and express trains can overtake? They're condemning users at the extremities of the lines and Gippsland V/line users to a ridiculous 30 or 40km/h crawl through the suburbs for decades to come.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
I agree.

now is the time for getting the long term planning basics right.
Boss
Funniest post I have read all year! You realise we are talking about Victoria, right?

Dave
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
I agree.

now is the time for getting the long term planning basics right.
Funniest post I have read all year! You realise we are talking about Victoria, right?

Dave
thadocta
In light of Rossco Y's report above I can see why Dave will be laughing for the next 50 years.

What a stuff up.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Extra track(s)?  Think Mitcham and Nunawading - seems to be part of the culture, if you can call it that.

Anyway, a big vote of thanks to Rossco for attending the meeting, asking some pertinent questions, and giving us a comprehensive report.  Well done.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Just remember these grade separations are road traffic easing related projects.
(For political purposes)


Little If any scope Is going to be put Into rail expansion works, there may be provision for future expansion, but little If any works (Just no budget allowance)
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Just remember these grade separations are road traffic easing related projects.
(For political purposes)
Nightfire
They said some years ago that there was no way they could do Rowville without four tracks to Clayton first and yet still no action - they can't throw enough money at the Monash but the train service is going to get slower and slower without expansion of the physical infrastructure. Melbourne is physically vast but crossing the suburbs without a car is slower than ever... maybe it's on purpose, who knows.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Rowville If ever built should be light rail, with Interchanges at Huntingdale and Ormond than liking Into the tram network.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The light rail link you suggest would be marvellous if it connected with a rail service that was actually fast.

I realise that it's less than 3km of elevated track being discussed here but no provision for further tracks in that area is plain stupid. Bracks was told years ago that urgent action was needed with amplification on that corridor but nothing was done - instead they tried to argue that the city tracks were the bottleneck and went with Swanston Metro instead. The reality is that Melbourne's suburban vastness (reaching ever further into Gippsland) will require a mix of stopping and fast semi-express options at all times of the day to keep the train an attractive alternative to the Monash.

Labor have a chance here to fix one of their earlier mistakes but yet again it looks like they're going to bugger it up!
  slowcoach Junior Train Controller

I feel people want more tracks to be added so on the train they can get a seat they never got in the first place.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Melbourne and Sydney longer term will need something like the Paris Regional Express Railway system - express lines that overlay the existing network to provide fast services from one side of the city to the other. Melbourne's urban footprint is well over 100km from Pakenham to Melton - I recall Brumby telling everyone what a wonderful place Melbourne will be with 7 million people (really?) but there's simply been no anticipation of the huge congestion problems those extra residents will bring.

Longer term planning for Melbourne should probably involve something like express train hubs at Frankston, Dandenong and Ringwood connecting though the city to Tullamarine, Sunbury or Werribee on the other side. Unfortunately we simply don't think far enough ahead with our urban planning in Australia to even contemplate those kind of big ticket items.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Melbourne and Sydney longer term will need something like the Paris Regional Express Railway system - express lines that overlay the existing network to provide fast services from one side of the city to the other. Melbourne's urban footprint is well over 100km from Pakenham to Melton - I recall Brumby telling everyone what a wonderful place Melbourne will be with 7 million people (really?) but there's simply been no anticipation of the huge congestion problems those extra residents will bring.

Longer term planning for Melbourne should probably involve something like express train hubs at Frankston, Dandenong and Ringwood connecting though the city to Tullamarine, Sunbury or Werribee on the other side. Unfortunately we simply don't think far enough ahead with our urban planning in Australia to even contemplate those kind of big ticket items.
don_dunstan

I wouldn't worry too much about Sydney but Melbourne definitely needs some help along it's vline tracks if they wish to provide a decent frequency and increased capacity. They should also look at electrification to Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong. If these 3 towns were on the Sydney network they would be serviced by electric 8 car double deck trains.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Might I also add that I think it is time for Melbourne to look at the French RER double deck trains for the metro system. These double decks have 3 doors per carriage and are the same length as Melbourne's trains and would immediately solve the capacity issues that Metro has.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Why the worry about this project as the total length elevated along the entire route is less than 5kms.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
I've got a good way to describe the two removal options:

Concrete river or Concrete Trees.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I've got a good way to describe the two removal options:

Concrete river or Concrete Trees.
speedemon08
The NIMBY's want cut and cover tunnel, but the cost of that Is out of the world with current local construction costs.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

The Level Crossing Removal Authority responded to a query I emailed them about future-proofing for 4 tracks, and building stations with entrances on both sides of the road.  Here is their response:

"Future proofing the Cranbourne-Pakenham line has been a key consideration in the development of the proposed designs. Allowances have been made for additional tracks to be added in the future, however when that project goes ahead, it will be subject to a separate design, planning and consultation process.

We'd love to hear your thoughts on specific elements of the designs. You can head to http://your.levelcrossings.vic.gov.au  to have your say online or drop in to one of the upcoming community sessions. We’re also taking formal submissions and would welcome your input. At this stage we're open to all ideas, so I would encourage you to submit your suggestions for consideration. I will also record your feedback below, including your suggestion to extend the station platforms to both sides of the road."

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