Tell the Time

 
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
It's about time that Australia grew up enough to use the 24-hour time system.
We learnt to change from miles to kilometres, we managed to convert from pounds to dollars, surely it can't be beyond the wit of man to learn that 1630 = 4.30 pm and so on.

One thing it would do away with is airlines, public transport utilities et al publishing timetables showing 12.00 am and 12.00 pm - both of which, by definition, are impossible.
It would also stop mobs like Virgin Australia from printing horrible things like "departure 06.30 pm"  . . What?
With the"pm" in small type, that caused horrendous confusion to me and a couple of others a year or two back.
No am or pm must surely be easier.

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Valvegear,

I could not agree more.

Sadly, however, the 24 hour clock is a sign of a mature intelligent community and there is no way either the politicians or the do gooders would allow this in the nanny dumbed down state.

I can claim responsibility for a large part of the introduction of the 24 hour clock on the Commonwealth Railways many years ago and for liaising its introduction to the Railways of Australia where some of the State Systems followed enthusiastically and others had to be dragged kicking and screaming and only to varying degrees claiming that no one would understand it and the world would end.

No one should use the time 0000 but rather 2359 or 0001 so that it is clear as to what day it applies but the sassenachs/infidels/idiots don't get that either.  

Along the same lines why do airlines use 1/I/0/O on booking references especially in type faces where they all look the same. Car number plates have the same problem. Even rail avoided the use of I and O (alphas) in allocating check letters to wagon numbers.
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
No one should use the time 0000 but rather 2359 or 0001
YM-Mundrabilla
Neither of which are midnight...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
No one should use the time 0000 but rather 2359 or 0001
Neither of which are midnight...
apw5910
True.
I should have said for scheduling, rostering and other operational purposes.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
So how  do you:

Write Midday and one minute past midday.

Write Midnight and oneminute past midnight.

Thanks it has always confused me.

David Head
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
So how  do you:

Write Midday and one minute past midday.

Write Midnight and oneminute past midnight.

Thanks it has always confused me.

David Head
dthead
Midday is simply 1200 as it is clear as to the day to which it applies.
Midnight is still, technically, 0000 but for clarity is better expressed as 2359 on Sunday or 0001 on Monday for example.
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
So how  do you:

Write Midday and one minute past midday.

Write Midnight and oneminute past midnight.

Thanks it has always confused me.

David Head
dthead
Write Midday and one minute past midday: 1200, 1201

Write Midnight and oneminute past midnight: 0000, 0001

I think the problem comes from teaching kids "numbers go from 1 to 10" instead of 0 to 9. Always took ages for many of my computing/engineering students to let go, though some got it straight away. Makes writing code (eg array indexing) SO much easier.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
So how  do you:

Write Midday and one minute past midday.

Write Midnight and one minute past midnight.

Thanks it has always confused me.

David Head
Write Midday and one minute past midday: 1200, 1201

Write Midnight and one minute past midnight: 0000, 0001

I think the problem comes from teaching kids "numbers go from 1 to 10" instead of 0 to 9. Always took ages for many of my computing/engineering students to let go, though some got it straight away. Makes writing code (eg array indexing) SO much easier.
apw5910
My point was to ignore midnight (0000), arbitrarily if you like, for operational purposes and use 2359 or 0001 for clarity as to the day involved.
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
Don't the airlines all ready use a 24 clock? For I have had the odd nearly miss ya flight scare because of it.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

YM-Mundrabilla said........

"Midnight is still, technically, 0000 but for clarity is better expressed as 2359 on Sunday or 0001 on Monday for example."

Hmmm, The number sequence is 0000 to 2400, 2400 would be the end of Saturday, 0000 is the begining of Sunday, both refering to the same time. It depends on what viewpoint one is looking at it from.


apw5910 said.............

"I think the problem comes from teaching kids "numbers go from 1 to 10" instead of 0 to 9. Always took ages for many of my computing/engineering students to let go, though some got it straight away. Makes writing code (eg array indexing) SO much easier."

It depends on what one is using numbers for, if one is counting objects, there's no zero, one starts from the first object, so the sequnce is 1,2,3 etc. The exception to this is years, there actually being a year zero in the calender. The sequence being BC 3,2,,1 0 AD 1,2,3 etc.

0 zero is a mathematical concept, the romans never had a numeral for zero, there arithmatic was done on an Abacus so did not need to display zero as a seprate entity. The Babylonians also did not have a symbol for zero and used a blank space instead, so to tell the difference between 15 and 150 one had to read the text around the number. The greeks also were unsure of zero, asking themselves how can nothing be something.

Zero became important when scholars started to venture into the area of higher mathematics and also financial accounting. It is of particular importance in computing as the presence of zero is used as flag in programming to indicate special attention is needed.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Don't the airlines all ready use a 24 clock? For I have had the odd nearly miss ya flight scare because of it.
ARodH
Pilots always use the 24 hour clock, usually express as GMT (Greenwich Mean Time) often refered to as such and such Zulu ie 0830Z means 0830 GMT. This is so for flights that cross time zones do not end in confusion.

woodford
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I have a current booking with Qantas.
If I go to "Manage your Booking" I read that I am scheduled to depart Melbourne at 12.00 PM.

That's my beef. AM is Ante Meridian and PM is Post Meridian. The meridian is noon or midnight so 12.00 cannot possibly be before (ante) or after (post) the meridian. It is nonsense.

The idea that it's too difficult to learn has to be the greatest load of bovine excreta I have ever heard. We have coped well with the change to metrics and this is no harder.
  apw5910 Chief Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Hmmm, The number sequence is 0000 to 2400, 2400 would be the end of Saturday, 0000 is the begining of Sunday, both refering to the same time. It depends on what viewpoint one is looking at it from.
woodford
You are falling into the trap I said about kids learning to count 1 to 10, instead of 0 to 9. Unfortunately that gets botched to 0 to 10.

The number sequence for 24 hour time is is 0000 to 2359.

2400 doesn't come into it. It's not part of 24 hour time, although a lot of people erroneously use it, creating a lot of unnecessary confusion.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I have a current booking with Qantas.
If I go to "Manage your Booking" I read that I am scheduled to depart Melbourne at 12.00 PM.

That's my beef. AM is Ante Meridian and PM is Post Meridian. The meridian is noon or midnight so 12.00 cannot possibly be before (ante) or after (post) the meridian. It is nonsense.

The idea that it's too difficult to learn has to be the greatest load of bovine excreta I have ever heard. We have coped well with the change to metrics and this is no harder.
Valvegear
12 hour clocks have been around since clocks started to be made although the early clocks only had an hour hand. Up until the railways arrived it was quite common for your clock to be set on local or "sundial time". Because 12 hour time telling was so wide spread it became necesary to distinguish the morning 12 hour period from the afternoon, the simplest way to explain is the PM, post meridian means the sun is past meridian 0 at Greenwich, 1200AM and 1200PM are required to distinguish midday from midnight. remember all this was developed in Great Britain and Europe well before Australia was settled by white people.

By the way related to this is "clockwise" in the northern hemisphere the hour hand of a clock travels the same way as the sun, so in effect "clockwise" in the southern is in fact the hour hand rotating the opposite way.

woodford
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
12 hour clocks have been around since clocks started to be made although the early clocks only had an hour hand. Up until the railways arrived it was quite common for your clock to be set on local or "sundial time". Because 12 hour time telling was so wide spread it became necesary to distinguish the morning 12 hour period from the afternoon, the simplest way to explain is the PM, post meridian means the sun is past meridian 0 at Greenwich, 1200AM and 1200PM are required to distinguish midday from midnight. remember all this was developed in Great Britain and Europe well before Australia was settled by white people.

By the way related to this is "clockwise" in the northern hemisphere the hour hand of a clock travels the same way as the sun, so in effect "clockwise" in the southern is in fact the hour hand rotating the opposite way.
"woodford"


With great respect, we know this. But, is the history of time any valid reason to refrain from making it more logical now?
People walking in front of cars with red flags was developed in Britain yonks ago, but that's no reason to do it now.
I'm not pushing change for the sake of change; I'm pushing for a more sensible system. It's used in Europe quite effectively and I don't believe they're collectively any smarter than us.

1200AM and 1200PM are required to distinguish midday from midnight
"woodford"

OK then, which is which, and why?
The whole problem is that they do not distinguish - it's pure guesswork, and, as such, is nonsense.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Agree.

Few things can be simpler than the 24 hour clock.

A similar sensible argument could be mounted for the abolition of the 30" difference between EST and what is now CST and before any one jumps up and down I couldn't care who gives way or whether we split the difference - it won't affect the delivery date for our U boats.
The Military, Air Traffic Control, Shipping and 'some' Train Controls have not adopted the 24 hour clock for nothing.

The world is not flat and does not end at Wodonga, Border Tunnel, Cockburn or Serviceton.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree.

Few things can be simpler than the 24 hour clock.

A similar sensible argument could be mounted for the abolition of the 30" difference between EST and what is now CST and before any one jumps up and down I couldn't care who gives way or whether we split the difference - it won't affect the delivery date for our U boats.
The Military, Air Traffic Control, Shipping and 'some' Train Controls have not adopted the 24 hour clock for nothing.

The world is not flat and does not end at Wodonga, Border Tunnel, Cockburn or Serviceton.
YM-Mundrabilla
U boats and for the great and growing unwashed in SA, Centrelink payments will be sooner

I tend to agree, two time zones for the country, ONLY all year round.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

So how  do you:

Write Midday and one minute past midday.

Write Midnight and one minute past midnight.

Thanks it has always confused me.
Simples: Just minus 12 hours from 1259 to 2359 for the equivalent pm times. That's all their is to it.

A certain person (points finger at the writer of this post!) has missed a service because at the time the 131-500 told us that their was a special train at XYZam, but it was pm.

Countrylink, um ur I mean NSW TrainLink (or is that Trainlink?) & Sydney Trains use the 24 hour clock. Most TV guides on TV's do, SOME (not many though) shops do. Bus timetables do in most cases in the greater metro area of NSW, some bus stops do & blah, blah, blah.

More timetables should use either "then every X minutes/hours to" or "then X minutes past each hour to", but the official reply to that, "oh but it's hard for passengers to understand"

PS: I know I said not to quote whole posts, but this time I made an exception.
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
The exception to this is years, there actually being a year zero in the calender. The sequence being BC 3,2,,1 0 AD 1,2,3 etc.
woodford

There is no year zero in this scheme, so the year AD 1 immediately follows the year 1 BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini
Wikipedia


Edit: Also worth a read: http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2015/11/difference-bce-ce-bc-ad-come/

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