Train Vs Truck Colac

 
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

We all know that these days it costs squillions to install a simple flashing lights and bells setup at minor level crossings.

But lets face it, there are hundreds of gravel and dirt roads crossing railways in Victoria and therefore it would cost hundreds of squillions to install lights and bells at every one of them and the state will never have the spare cash to do them all.

However, perhaps there is a simpler and possibly more affordable solution? On these minor roads the reservation is usually quite wide. So it might be feasible to put a bend / dog leg thingy into the road on either side of most level crossings by slewing the road to one side of the road reservation and then bending it to the other side. This would force traffic to slow down and angle their view towards both directions.

A small time contractor with a dozer and a truck load of gravel could easily do that work in a day, therefore it would probably be vastly cheaper than installing lights and bells, allowing more level crossings to be improved for a certain level of funding than the pricier alternative.

This is just a thought, but unless there is a bureaucratic reason why it can't be done, it just might have legs?
There is potentially .  During Mulders time there was a reported successful trial of a device that sent an audible signal to car radios within vicinity of lx whether radio was on or off to alert the car driver that a train was approaching . The equipment added $ 50 to car cost, and  $ 5,000 to each loco or  lx installation .  Mulder was most enthusiastic but it never got funded or even live trialled on a dedicated line .
kuldalai
Saturdays Press reporting the Victorian warning system is actually being trialled now in Queensland .  Minister should be directing  Victrack to trial it on a dedicated country line at ALL unprotected crossings, and Waurn Ponds - Warrnambool would be a good starting place .

Another footnote this incident could have been a lot worse as the train was only travelling at a max 100kmh owing to the fact that VLP infrastructure management  have let the Warrnambool line deteriorate to Class - 3 standard otherwise the train could well have been doing 115 kmh .

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  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

I would like to comment that the response of the insurers will be most interesting and perhaps have a major say in where things go. Presumably Vline will sue the truck's insurance for damages of all sorts - track, loco, carriages, lost income etc and including personal injury, presuming again that the truck driver is found "negligent". The payout on this one would easily be in the $M's.


I think a problem may also arise if it is found that the truck driver - again assuming the truck should not have been there - had what I would say all have had on odd occasions - and suffered a "brain fart". That is the almost inexplicable failure to conduct oneself in accordance with the rules. I make this comment as bluntly, such appears to have been the root cause of the Teneriffe 2 X 747 head-on collision back in 1977. A Qantas 747 found its way into a Bangkok golf course on landing in 1999 for what seemed to be a similar circumstance.
3l diesel
The Tenerife disaster was caused by KLM Chief Pilot taking off before being authorized by the control tower at Tenerife.  The QF overrun at Bangkok was caused by the aircraft aquaplaning on the runway on initial landing coupled with failure by the QF pilots to use reverse thrust to pull the aircarft up faster when they were running out of runway .  QF had trained pilots to use tread brakes as priority, as using reverse thrust was wearing the engines out faster and the QF bean counters were complaining .  The pilots were still allowed to use reverse thrust braking if required, but it had been trained out of them .  So when a crisis arose and they needed reverse thrust they forgot to use it .  Cost QF more to rebuild the 747 in China than purchase a new aircraft; simply because QF did not want the black mark that they had written off an aircraft .
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Well said, kuldalai, a concise summary of facts.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Let's keep the thread on topic. If you really want to talk about the air incidents, go and create a new thread in the OTHER TRANSPORT fourms

I will delete any further posts , without warning.  No one has done anything wrong, just  housekeeping to keep threads on topic.

New Thread for Aircraft topic: https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2021732.htm#2021732

Regards,
David Head
Moderator
  Matruck Junior Train Controller

Location: Lilliput,Victoria
Dog leg's do not work as driver's of either car's or heavy vehicle's just swap to the other side of the road if nothing is coming and continue on at speed, Depending how the semi trailer is loaded of course and the experience of the driver.
There was a dog leg north of Temora heading towards Barmedman that only had a stop/give way sign for memory and one night heading north toward's this crossing i noticed sumthing flashing out the left hand side and as i got closer to the crossing i slowed and had a look and it was the reflective patches on the side of the grain wagons flying past as i could not see the loco headlight's in the distance.
Still no excuse for those who think they do not have to obey the law but it seem's to be getting harder and more expensive for the rest of us just look to after the few idiot's.
Mick.
  Catdog Station Staff

Location: Koyuga, Victoria, Australia
Catdog, does that mean trucks need a redesign for better visability ?

Regards,
David Head
dthead

A change in design would help in some cases as visibility out of the left hand side of the truck is very poor, but this would be a very long term fix due to the large numbers of existing vehicles on the road.

Correct alignment of road/rail interfaces to achieve a 90 degree crossing would also be a big help, or fitting warning lights and bells on crossings that don't have adequate visibility would be better, though both more expensive for the taxpayer.  This does not absolve the driver of any vehicle from fulfilling their responsibilities, nor is it fool proof, but it will help prevent collisions where poor visibility is a major contributing factor
  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

Does anyone know the status of the track and how long the rollinsstock will be out of service?

How will the n class be moved and to where?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Does anyone know the status of the track and how long the rollinsstock will be out of service?

How will the n class be moved and to where?
MetroFemme
5000 tonnes ballast/fill placed beside derailed train and temporary track put in place . Over weekend cranes have lifted N loco and cars onto this temporary trackl.  N + P Class sent light from melb to return  Train loco and 4 N set to Newport , probably Monday .  Original ROW will then be cleared and  permanet track re instated on original alighnment .  VLP expect to re open track for pass and freight traffic around Wednesday . Remember very wet and soft around that area following heavy rainfall in recent weeks .
  Moncar Station Staff

The two N class Locos and the P class with the 4 carriages are sitting at North Geelong yard. with damage to the front of the N class visible when traveling toward Melbourne.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

We all know that these days it costs squillions to install a simple flashing lights and bells setup at minor level crossings.
Bogong
Just by way of providing information..............

There's actual no such thing as a "simple" signal installation, the reason why such things cost so much is the installation MUST be proved that it works AND meets all specifcations, including such things as correct light colour, this is usually very complicated. In case of a crossing warning system this includes running a train (usually two loco's back to back) through the level crossing at all speeds. The total testing setup is what costs the big bucks. A Harmon crossing controller costs around $50.000 dollars (price as of around 10 years ago), the cost of testing it can be many times that amount.

It is of course understood that signalling including level crossing systems MUST work RELIABLY, this is never going to be cheap.

woodford
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Well I was looking for a partial solution that would make things a fair bit safer on dirt road crossings but which would be affordable in the real world. I still reckon my dog leg / S-bend idea is a good one.

The massive cost inflation of the lights and bells setup has made it impractical and unaffordable for minor dirt roads, but perhaps we could also look at the old wig-wag level crossing warning system. Back in the day they could be installed for (I think) the equivalent of a few months average wages.

I was not being entirely serious about wig-wags, but I was trying to point out that the price of a lights and bells setup has become so massively expensive that it is no longer a practical and affordable solution as the cost of installing them has increased many times faster than inflation.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Well I was looking for a partial solution that would make things a fair bit safer on dirt road crossings but which would be affordable in the real world. I still reckon my dog leg / S-bend idea is a good one.

The massive cost inflation of the lights and bells setup has made it impractical and unaffordable for minor dirt roads, but perhaps we could also look at the old wig-wag level crossing warning system. Back in the day they could be installed for (I think) the equivalent of a few months average wages.

I was not being entirely serious about wig-wags, but I was trying to point out that the price of a lights and bells setup has become so massively expensive that it is no longer a practical and affordable solution as the cost of installing them has increased many times faster than inflation.
Bogong
I was not criticising  the dog leg idea just giving some idea of why signalling is SO expensive. In fact the dog leg idea is a good idea, but the dog leg DOES need to be of a decent dimension. Such dog legs are quite common where rural roads cross more major roads, but as already has been pointed out unless the offset is enough one can still drive through them. Going from ones I have been through around Wangarrata and Bendigo, the offset needs to be AT LEAST 30 metres.

Another problem if ANY road cross's a rail line at an angle, in my opinion a proper waning system needs to be fitted OR the level crossing needs to be closed. Such crossings are EXTREMELY dangerous. An extreme version of this is if the road runs parrallel with the line then cross's is it, there is a stack of these around the Benalla area (including a couple on the main NE line), a train can sneek up behind you REAL easy.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Post Script, On level crossings from parrallel roads, dog legs can work on these as well, What one does is one dog legs the road away from line, this forces one to slow down to be able to take what is in  effect 3 90 degree turns in a row and one can get a good look at the line from the last bend.

woodford
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Not specific to the incident but related to sighting issues:


I once managed a fleet of hirail vehicles.  Level crossings at angles were a pain in the bum as you could not see for traffic out the left of the car when giving way at level crossings.  Because the vehicle being on rail cant readily turn to gain visibility out the left side the tool boxes on the back of the Landcruiser were limited in height to allow sighting to the left of the car out the back window of the ute cab.   So when you see a hirail with lopsided tool boxes on the rear you know why.
  emmastreet Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
Train Vs car at Pogue Rd. Toolamba today. Possibly the morning down V/line service. Try http://www.mmg.com.au/local-news/Shepparton. It appears minor injuries to the car driver only.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/index.html?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a_FBK&mode=premium&dest=http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/truck-and-vline-train-in-near-hit-a-month-after-horror-smash-at-notorious-crossing-in-pirron-yallock/news-story/a19cc6a48ab66f996a2791379ae8e7df&memtype=anonymous

It Seems a truck went around the new boom gates to cross in front of a vline train yesterday.

Law enforcement is needed. Education almost a waste of time. PRevention clearly does not work if people think they can get away with it.


One could laugh bitterly, the crash a month ago got all this work done, to be almost useless !!!

Regards,
David Head
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
How about a massive roll out of level crossing surveillance cameras, to catch and remove the licences of offending motorists doing dangerous acts.
You hear regularly on the radio traffic reports of motorists driving around boom gates (Murrumbeena area) when there Is a system malfunction, police have to be called to block off the crossings.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
How about a massive roll out of level crossing surveillance cameras, to catch and remove the licences of offending motorists doing dangerous acts.
You hear regularly on the radio traffic reports of motorists driving around boom gates (Murrumbeena area) when there Is a system malfunction, police have to be called to block off the crossings.
Nightfire
I agree,
But it seem the old Rail VS Road come into it as eac mode  suggests the other mode pays for the camera, so nothing is done. TO me it should come from the Lawa and order side, not Road or Rail.  Because people are being killed now because they try to get away with it, and because there is no cameras to catch them.
If only....
David Head
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
How about a massive roll out of level crossing surveillance cameras, to catch and remove the licences of offending motorists doing dangerous acts.

You hear regularly on the radio traffic reports of motorists driving around boom gates (Murrumbeena area) when there Is a system malfunction, police have to be called to block off the crossings.
Nightfire
Yep, you could install a combined Red Light / Speed Camera at each one that has flashing lights. They should pay for themselves fairly quickly.

There is/was a Camera on the Bagshot crossing north of Bendigo, presumably just a speed camera.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Yep, you could install a combined Red Light / Speed Camera at each one that has flashing lights. They should pay for themselves fairly quickly.

There is/was a Camera on the Bagshot crossing north of Bendigo, presumably just a speed camera.
mikesyd
Everyone obeys the road rules through the Bagshot level crossing.

Another level crossing camera was Installed at the former Springvale Road level crossing at Nunawading, It recorded some shocking dangerous behavior, but the camera was never linked up the Compliance Victoria to Issue traffic Infringements ?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
How about a massive roll out of level crossing surveillance cameras, to catch and remove the licences of offending motorists doing dangerous acts.

You hear regularly on the radio traffic reports of motorists driving around boom gates (Murrumbeena area) when there Is a system malfunction, police have to be called to block off the crossings.
Yep, you could install a combined Red Light / Speed Camera at each one that has flashing lights. They should pay for themselves fairly quickly.

There is/was a Camera on the Bagshot crossing north of Bendigo, presumably just a speed camera.
mikesyd
I think that camera is a speed camera it's in the 80kph zone for the crossing on a normally 100kph highway.

We have a growing multitude of "safety cameras" (speed and red light combination) at level crossings here in metro Adelaide, and they are reportedly making quite a few dollars for the gov.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I think that camera is a speed camera it's in the 80kph zone for the crossing on a normally 100kph highway.

We have a growing multitude of "safety cameras" (speed and red light combination) at level crossings here in metro Adelaide, and they are reportedly making quite a few dollars for the gov.
Pressman
Correct there are 80 km/h zones on roads that are normally 100 km/h (though not all, might be traffic volume and risk factor related)

The level crossing cameras would well and truly pay for themselves In Victoria In no time, some would call them revenue raisers !
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Here's an idea; Why not use closed circuit television cameras rather than red light cameras, with the level crossing supervised from the nearest signal-box or by a train controller?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Here's an idea; Why not use closed circuit television cameras rather than red light cameras, with the level crossing supervised from the nearest signal-box or by a train controller?
Myrtone
Myrtone would you care to inform us where the nearest manned signal box is to level crossing in question (Phalps Road)

Or maybe you could tell us where the nearest manned signal box is to say, the Western Hwy Level Crossing at Ararat?
  james.au Minister for Railways

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