"The World's Best Metro" - Ch7 special about the Northwest Link

 
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Trainstopic is just as wrong as you.

You use a old incorrectly labeled video with limited image of either side of the track as your only reference point and ignore someone who actually lives here?

Again Trainstopic is wrong

The line will only be as crowded as you say if the govt fails to procure more carriages to make the trains longer and increase the frequency. As the top end capacity more than doubles that of the DD lines then if it achieves that sort of capacity at 2m intervals with 8 car trains then I think your argument falls over as it has become a Metro as per your definition and proven the govt right.
RTT_Rules


Please give me the courtesy RTT of explaining why I am wrong.  I don't want to get into semantics about what is classified as a "metro", but the simple fact is that most commentators would interpret a "metro" to be a frequent high capacity inner city rail service.  It generally doesn't refer to a rail service stretching to the outer lower density suburbs, which the North West Rail Link is.  The choice of rolling stock is therefore inappropriate.  Whether it is single deck or double deck is beside the point, it needs to have a greater seating ratio because of the distance involved.  What we are about to end up with is an inner city Hong Kong style service with limited seating over vastly greater distances in Sydney.  Please don't bore me with any more comparisons with Dubai, as Sydney and Dubai are chalk and cheese.  There's no comparison.

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  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

Tunnel machines are a very high maintenance item and corrosion is sometimes their biggest issue. As the tunnel conditions and finishing are usually customised, unless you have exactly the same conditions and tunnel requirements, its often cheaper to start again as many projects have found and hence why they are dumped in their own grave.
RTT_Rules
I actually live in Epping and I receive regular newsletters from the North West Rail Consortium which explicitly stated that the TBMs were being dismantled and stored for future use.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I don't want to get into semantics about what is classified as a "metro", but the simple fact is that most commentators would interpret a "metro" to be a frequent high capacity inner city rail service.  It generally doesn't refer to a rail service stretching to the outer lower density suburbs, which the North West Rail Link is.  The choice of rolling stock is therefore inappropriate. Whether it is single deck or double deck is beside the point, it needs to have a greater seating ratio because of the distance involved.  What we are about to end up with is an inner city Hong Kong style service with limited seating over vastly greater distances in Sydney.
Transtopic
Indeed, metro is interpreted as a lighter kind of heavy rail, with smaller and lighter trains and, in many cases, closer station spacing than, say, a mile.
There is plenty of single deck rolling stock that would be suited to suburban rail distances stopping at suburban spaced stations, but, with the exception of narrow gauge rolling stock, is most likely wider than metro rolling stock, in this case wide enough for 2+3 rather than only wide enough for 2+2 seating.

@Transtopic
Our Dubai resident isn't going to give up the vision of a multi-line metro, lines independent of any other, including each other, in a metropolis that was very much able to avoid the problem that metro style rail was originally designed to solve.
Dubai (I'm told) is quite decentralised, apparently like Las Vegas in many ways, such as all the Las Vegas like lights, being located in some desert.
They have their metro because their Emir wanted one, getting their worker class off Dubai's roads.
  Alamein_Line Chief Commissioner

Surely , the Sydney "Metro" is more of a hybrid similar to BART in San Francisco ?


A suburban / outer suburban line which also becomes a metro-like service in the inner area with Chatswood - CBD similar to Oakland - San Francisco - Daly City  ( both even cross a harbour )


The major differences , of course , are that BART has a number of suburban branches which combine to become the metro portion and the wide rolling stock which originally had 2 x 2 seating , new arrangements including some longitudinal seating or 2x1

London Underground's Metropolitan Line also has stock with a mix of seating types


There seems to be a heavy emphasis in marketing the Sydney  line to cater for short-trip / high turnover travel and certainly there will be some of this in both directions ( Norwest Business Park / Macquarie University / Chatswood / CBD )
But there will also be reasonably lengthy Northwest - North Sydney or CBD journeys



There is no suggestion of short workings that I have seen - is this easily done with automated trains or even provided to allow service on part of the line when disruptions occur ?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Tunnel machines are a very high maintenance item and corrosion is sometimes their biggest issue. As the tunnel conditions and finishing are usually customised, unless you have exactly the same conditions and tunnel requirements, its often cheaper to start again as many projects have found and hence why they are dumped in their own grave.I actually live in Epping and I receive regular newsletters from the North West Rail Consortium which explicitly stated that the TBMs were being dismantled and stored for future use.
Transtopic
Yes they maybe use, but I'm sure most extracted TBM's always have a potential future, but how many actually get it? As I said each tunnel is often so unique with not their reuse may not be viable.

Would they be used for the city Metro line? We will see.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

There seems to be a heavy emphasis in marketing the Sydney  line to cater for short-trip / high turnover travel and certainly there will be some of this in both directions ( Norwest Business Park / Macquarie University / Chatswood / CBD )
But there will also be reasonably lengthy Northwest - North Sydney or CBD journeys



There is no suggestion of short workings that I have seen - is this easily done with automated trains or even provided to allow service on part of the line when disruptions occur ?
Alamein_Line
From what I've seen in Dubai and other places, provided the cross over is there and intended as a turn back, no issues exist.

However I doubt this is what will happen, they are marketing short trip use and hence to get people out of cars but Trains are not projected to be short trip operated.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE


Please give me the courtesy RTT of explaining why I am wrong.  I don't want to get into semantics about what is classified as a "metro", but the simple fact is that most commentators would interpret a "metro" to be a frequent high capacity inner city rail service.  It generally doesn't refer to a rail service stretching to the outer lower density suburbs, which the North West Rail Link is.  The choice of rolling stock is therefore inappropriate.  Whether it is single deck or double deck is beside the point, it needs to have a greater seating ratio because of the distance involved.  What we are about to end up with is an inner city Hong Kong style service with limited seating over vastly greater distances in Sydney.  Please don't bore me with any more comparisons with Dubai, as Sydney and Dubai are chalk and cheese.  There's no comparison.
Transtopic
Because its been said all before and if you are going to get bored then why ask!

We are we so hell bent on spending time arguing over a definition of a line and to prove something is this or that. I posted a definition as quoted in WIKI. Not everything is black and white and there is nearly always a compromise some where. Sydney Trains is also a compromise.

Lower density today does not equal the same for 30 years away and because its not practical to build a small section of track only for another type of train. For example Carlingford Line, does this define the best use for DD technology? No but its used because thats what they have. Look at any Metro type system as defined by you and Mytone and they always have a few areas of low density being serviced as well. The travel time from Chatswood to the city, is probably close to half.

Again, distance is irrelevant, average travel time is! You can look at most of Sydney's lines today and everyone has people standing on arrival to the city. How long did the average standee stand for?  I can tell you I used to do it for 35-45min in a crowded space 25 years ago in Sydney. The trip time from the last station to the city on the Metro project isn't even that (45min) far away and unlike my commute the intermediate turn over is far higher. Look at the existing stats now for the bus users from the NW and Sydney trains to the ECRL stations, more offs than on. It is a destination on its own!

Dubai, Sinpapore etc are options, but we don't have to go past Vancouver to see similar technology successfully used in a low density western city.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
@Transtopic
Our Dubai resident isn't going to give up the vision of a multi-line metro, lines independent of any other, including each other, in a metropolis that was very much able to avoid the problem that metro style rail was originally designed to solve.
Dubai (I'm told) is quite decentralised, apparently like Las Vegas in many ways, such as all the Las Vegas like lights, being located in some desert.
They have their metro because their Emir wanted one, getting their worker class off Dubai's roads.
Myrtone
the vision of a multi-line metro, lines independent of any other, including each other, in a metropolis that was very much able to avoid the problem that metro style rail was originally designed to solve.

The design strategy for Sydney worked until Sydney grew up and its no longer working. Time for change to following international trends of independent lines that in revenue mode do not interact with each other and stop express and all stopper services sharing the same tracks. This is the cheapest, simplest and most effective/reliable way to run a railway and NSW has spent a billion or many as a starter to get this in Sydney trains with more to follow.

Amazing, a metro type railway services a decentralised city with half the population of Sydney and moves 20% of its population per day! The CBD is a work in progress, probably past the 60-70% point after 20 years when they pegged it out in the sand. Should be mostly done in next 5 years.

The Emir of Dubai is no idiot. They look at a vision of where they want the city to be in 10 years, 30 year visions take too long. They send out their advisors, put a recommendation together and get on with it. No NIMBY's or politics. The general consensus by most westerners here is they get it right more often than back home and in a fraction of the time and with less money.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

Tunnel machines are a very high maintenance item and corrosion is sometimes their biggest issue. As the tunnel conditions and finishing are usually customised, unless you have exactly the same conditions and tunnel requirements, its often cheaper to start again as many projects have found and hence why they are dumped in their own grave.I actually live in Epping and I receive regular newsletters from the North West Rail Consortium which explicitly stated that the TBMs were being dismantled and stored for future use.Yes they maybe use, but I'm sure most extracted TBM's always have a potential future, but how many actually get it? As I said each tunnel is often so unique with not their reuse may not be viable.

Would they be used for the city Metro line? We will see.
RTT_Rules
Do I have to spell it out for you RTT?  THE DISMANTLED TBMS ARE BEING STORED FOR FUTURE USE.  That's official.  I don't give a stuff about what's happened elsewhere.  You're so infuriating in not acknowledging that just for once you might be wrong.  You're in Dubai and I'm at the epicentre of what is happening on the ground.  So don't insult me by suggesting you know it all.        

The recovered TBMs could well be used for the tunnelling from Chatswood to North Sydney and from Barangaroo to Sydenham.  I don't know what is intended for the harbour crossing, but it could possibly involve extending the TBM from Chatswood to Barangaroo.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Look at the existing stats now for the bus users from the NW and Sydney trains to the ECRL stations, more offs than on. It is a destination on its own!
RTT_Rules
The overwhelming majority of bus users from the North West travel direct to the Sydney CBD.  There a only few bus services to Macquarie Park.  Most commuters to Macquarie Park from the North West actually drive because of its close proximity and the abundance of parking.  


The greater public transport patronage to Macquarie Park is actually in the contra-peak direction from the CBD in the morning and visa versa in the afternoon.  This is why Sydney Trains introduced 2 additional contra-peak services to and from Epping in the peak.  So much for peak demand to Macquarie Park from the North West.  It's a myth.  

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it remains to be seen if North West commuters will embrace the rail system they're being offered. I have my doubts.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Tunnel machines are a very high maintenance item and corrosion is sometimes their biggest issue. As the tunnel conditions and finishing are usually customised, unless you have exactly the same conditions and tunnel requirements, its often cheaper to start again as many projects have found and hence why they are dumped in their own grave.I actually live in Epping and I receive regular newsletters from the North West Rail Consortium which explicitly stated that the TBMs were being dismantled and stored for future use.Yes they maybe use, but I'm sure most extracted TBM's always have a potential future, but how many actually get it? As I said each tunnel is often so unique with not their reuse may not be viable.

Would they be used for the city Metro line? We will see.Do I have to spell it out for you RTT?  THE DISMANTLED TBMS ARE BEING STORED FOR FUTURE USE.  That's official.  I don't give a stuff about what's happened elsewhere.  You're so infuriating in not acknowledging that just for once you might be wrong.  You're in Dubai and I'm at the epicentre of what is happening on the ground.  So don't insult me by suggesting you know it all.        

The recovered TBMs could well be used for the tunnelling from Chatswood to North Sydney and from Barangaroo to Sydenham.  I don't know what is intended for the harbour crossing, but it could possibly involve extending the TBM from Chatswood to Barangaroo.
Transtopic
Trainstopic
Do I need to spell it out. I never said they won't be reused. I just said their storage doesn't equal they will be reused. Doesn't matter where you are in the world, TBM reuse % is not huge for reasons I previously stated.

Honestly I treat a "stored for reuse" TBM the same as a a 50 year old loco sitting in the siding waiting for a bumper grain crop to be reactivated.

I could and likely be wrong, fine so be it and let me know I would appreciate it and and for me its no big deal, I actually don't give a toss if I am, its not like we are arguing for pink slips.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Look at the existing stats now for the bus users from the NW and Sydney trains to the ECRL stations, more offs than on. It is a destination on its own!
The overwhelming majority of bus users from the North West travel direct to the Sydney CBD.  There a only few bus services to Macquarie Park.  Most commuters to Macquarie Park from the North West actually drive because of its close proximity and the abundance of parking.  


The greater public transport patronage to Macquarie Park is actually in the contra-peak direction from the CBD in the morning and visa versa in the afternoon.  This is why Sydney Trains introduced 2 additional contra-peak services to and from Epping in the peak.  So much for peak demand to Macquarie Park from the North West.  It's a myth.  

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it remains to be seen if North West commuters will embrace the rail system they're being offered. I have my doubts.
Transtopic

I read the survey by the state govt on people traffic and apparently this is the main reason why they changed the route to run via Chatswood over Gladsville and started with a line to Chatswood only with no 100% guarantee to extend to the city.

As you said, we will find out soon enough when the NWRL is open and later when the City Metro is open. My understanding is that while the next election is due before the City Metro is under full construction, the opposition should they win in 2019  have little option but to compete it or preside over a big F-up.

As I said before, Sydney trains does not have an issue filling trains to packing standing capacity for a 20-30min train ride and longer for interurban, DD or SD I doubt few will care and if the line follows your commuter path it will more than likely be attractive as similar technology is also attractive OS.

EDIT: I don't support the claim its the world's best Metro, I don't know if it is or isn't, but I doubt it will be considering what others have done.

EDIT2: Had the line been built DD I wouldn't be saying it should be a METRO. However it wouldn't be this entangled mess of trains crossing from one track to another either, they know enough now to not do that. The govt published data appears to support this is the right approach and I support it the comments.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Look at the existing stats now for the bus users from the NW and Sydney trains to the ECRL stations, more offs than on. It is a destination on its own!
The overwhelming majority of bus users from the North West travel direct to the Sydney CBD.  There a only few bus services to Macquarie Park.  Most commuters to Macquarie Park from the North West actually drive because of its close proximity and the abundance of parking.  


The greater public transport patronage to Macquarie Park is actually in the contra-peak direction from the CBD in the morning and visa versa in the afternoon.  This is why Sydney Trains introduced 2 additional contra-peak services to and from Epping in the peak.  So much for peak demand to Macquarie Park from the North West.  It's a myth.  

The proof of the pudding is in the eating and it remains to be seen if North West commuters will embrace the rail system they're being offered. I have my doubts.
Transtopic
I totally agree. Particularly those that live in the Hill's district see their car as some sort of status symbol and will be hard to dislodge from them.

As for the term metro, I don't think it comes near those I have seen in numerous places overseas. We are getting a system like the Melbourne one with the addition of glass doors on the platforms. From my observations metro systems use light weight cars such as used in the New York system that very tight curves and run on third rail at around 600 to 750 VDC. More in common with light rail rather than the heavy rail we presently have.

Just because the cars on order for the NW Metro plus are single deck does not make them light rail.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

Tunnel machines are a very high maintenance item and corrosion is sometimes their biggest issue. As the tunnel conditions and finishing are usually customised, unless you have exactly the same conditions and tunnel requirements, its often cheaper to start again as many projects have found and hence why they are dumped in their own grave.I actually live in Epping and I receive regular newsletters from the North West Rail Consortium which explicitly stated that the TBMs were being dismantled and stored for future use.Yes they maybe use, but I'm sure most extracted TBM's always have a potential future, but how many actually get it? As I said each tunnel is often so unique with not their reuse may not be viable.

Would they be used for the city Metro line? We will see.Do I have to spell it out for you RTT?  THE DISMANTLED TBMS ARE BEING STORED FOR FUTURE USE.  That's official.  I don't give a stuff about what's happened elsewhere.  You're so infuriating in not acknowledging that just for once you might be wrong.  You're in Dubai and I'm at the epicentre of what is happening on the ground.  So don't insult me by suggesting you know it all.        

The recovered TBMs could well be used for the tunnelling from Chatswood to North Sydney and from Barangaroo to Sydenham.  I don't know what is intended for the harbour crossing, but it could possibly involve extending the TBM from Chatswood to Barangaroo.Trainstopic
Do I need to spell it out. I never said they won't be reused. I just said their storage doesn't equal they will be reused. Doesn't matter where you are in the world, TBM reuse % is not huge for reasons I previously stated.

Honestly I treat a "stored for reuse" TBM the same as a a 50 year old loco sitting in the siding waiting for a bumper grain crop to be reactivated.

I could and likely be wrong, fine so be it and let me know I would appreciate it and and for me its no big deal, I actually don't give a toss if I am, its not like we are arguing for pink slips.
RTT_Rules
Point accepted
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
It could just as easily backfire on the government prior to the election if congestion problems at Chatswood in interchanging to Sydney Trains is exacerbated by late running of North Shore Line trains with commuters banking up on the platform.  Then again, after the initial rush, more commuters may decide that it is better to change at Epping to empty starters or express CCN Intercity trains, creating more overcrowding on the Northern Line.  It could even force more commuters back into their cars, when the direct bus services to the CBD are withdrawn.  I don't think anyone can really say with any certainty how it will pan out.
Transtopic
I highly doubt that congestion at Chatswood will be much of an issue. Every now and again two train loads will try to get on a single double deck train but even two loads of the degree of usage of the NWRL will be twice of stuff all. It's about 4k people in the busiest hour heading in to the CBD and lower Shore IIRC (could be a bit higher); spread that over 15 trains - 264 people per train. 528 pax from two trains. Might be a bit squeezy, ie. slightly above the 135% seated capacity standard, but who the hell cares? Next train won't be two long away.

The real issue is the unacceptable increase to the congestion on the Western and lower Northern lines.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

The real issue is the unacceptable increase to the congestion on the Western and lower Northern lines.
simonl
We don't yet know the plan for dealing with this.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


The real issue is the unacceptable increase to the congestion on the Western and lower Northern lines.We don't yet know the plan for dealing with this.
RTT_Rules

Yes we do. It is called the Sydney Metro and it will move people to epping quite quickly once completed.
  Transtopic Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney

The real issue is the unacceptable increase to the congestion on the Western and lower Northern lines.We don't yet know the plan for dealing with this.
Yes we do. It is called the Sydney Metro and it will move people to epping quite quickly once completed.
simstrain
I don't get your point.  What has that got to do with the Western and Lower Northern Lines?  The Sydney Metro North West will terminate at Chatswood for at least 5 years and there's no guarantee that it will actually be extended to the CBD, let alone to Bankstown.  Remember, there is a State Election in 2019, and things could change.  If a Labor Government is elected, which is quite on the cards going by present trends, they may well have a different agenda, such as refocussing on upgrading the Western Line which is the busiest on the network.  Once the ECRL is closed for conversion, it appears that Northern Line services will be operated at 8tph in the peak via the Suburban tracks from Strathfield through the CBD to the North Shore.  Some Western Line services will run direct via the Mains to Sydney Terminal.  As I have previously stated, I expect that there will be a significant number of passengers from the North West who will interchange at Epping rather than Chatswood, where they can get a seat on Epping starters or a faster journey on express suburban and Intercity trains to the CBD.  This will add to congestion on the Lower Northern Line.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

What we already know is that north shore trains are already overcrowded and at full track capacity.  The metro will free up 4 slots on both the northern and north shore line.   Not a huge amount, but until the metro is sent under the harbour into the city, very little will be achieved and only people to benefit will be those who use the metro itself.   Once the metro is completed and in an ideal world converting the bankstown to sefton or regents park, users of other lines will still be stuck with being overcrowded.   It was a monumentally stupid idea not to fast track the 2nd harbour crossing as that was the most needed.

Regardless of your views on whether this line should be metro or a extension of the current DD network is another story.


Ironically, the western line will receive little benefit from the metro, which is the busiest.   Small shorter term fixes can be added such as extending the quad section, more cumberland services.  

With the Delivery of 10 car intercity's maybe having a few select peak super express 10 car services to central on both the northern and western line to try and get people to change at epping instead of chatswood.  Maybe also open up the Casino-sydney XPT train to customers at fassifern, wyong and gosford.  Most seats are empty by gosford.  Maybe don't even have reserved ticketing for these stations, just anyone who is there can use it.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner


The real issue is the unacceptable increase to the congestion on the Western and lower Northern lines.We don't yet know the plan for dealing with this.
Yes we do. It is called the Sydney Metro and it will move people to epping quite quickly once completed.I don't get your point.  What has that got to do with the Western and Lower Northern Lines?  The Sydney Metro North West will terminate at Chatswood for at least 5 years and there's no guarantee that it will actually be extended to the CBD, let alone to Bankstown.  Remember, there is a State Election in 2019, and things could change.  If a Labor Government is elected, which is quite on the cards going by present trends, they may well have a different agenda, such as refocussing on upgrading the Western Line which is the busiest on the network.  Once the ECRL is closed for conversion, it appears that Northern Line services will be operated at 8tph in the peak via the Suburban tracks from Strathfield through the CBD to the North Shore.  Some Western Line services will run direct via the Mains to Sydney Terminal.  As I have previously stated, I expect that there will be a significant number of passengers from the North West who will interchange at Epping rather than Chatswood, where they can get a seat on Epping starters or a faster journey on express suburban and Intercity trains to the CBD.  This will add to congestion on the Lower Northern Line.
Transtopic

Do you really think that Labor will win in 2019? While this current liberal government can be hard headed over things. They are getting things done. New roads, rail, hospitals are all being built and do you think that the people of NSW will really vote Labor back in because of some greyhounds. This will all be forgotten in 2019 when nw metro is operating, when the light rail is operating, when north connex is completed, when stage one of west connex is completed or near completion. Do you really think that by 2019 people aren't going to see through labor who's only election gambit will be greyhounds, lockout laws and council mergers.

Construction of the Sydney Metro is guaranteed because the TBM's have been ordered and there are still 2 and a bit years before another state election and by then construction will have started on the Sydney metro and TBM's will be rolling. If such a project is started then who would vote in a labor government that would cancel a project that is already under construction and well planned. This crap about labor winning in 2019 is just that.

People are just getting caught up in the significance of the recent local elections and fail to understand that by 2019 things will be different at state level.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

People said that Baird would lose in 2015 because of what happened in Victoria in 2014 and the Abbott effect. Instead he got re-elected with a majority in both houses. Completely the opposite of what the papers were predicting.

Even with all of this crap being handed out by minority nimby groups. Baird and the liberals are still more popular then labor and it's stooges. The local council election results were just a message to Baird to stop messing around in areas he shouldn't be messing with.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane

The real issue is the unacceptable increase to the congestion on the Western and lower Northern lines.We don't yet know the plan for dealing with this.
RTT_Rules
You moron.

Many detailed documents have been produced some with a very thin veneer of suggesting that something will be done or doesn't need to be. Either that or they are completely silent. We know nothing will be done until it becomes a political issue or the liberals show some leadership (not possible with Minister Berejiklian). If there is any justice in the world, Gladys will lose her preselection for what she did to the rail system and the Western Line in particular but if the heads don't roll and the voters re-elect the liberals in 2019, they will be endorsing their disgraceful behaviour.
  simonl Chief Commissioner

Location: Brisbane
People said that Baird would lose in 2015 because of what happened in Victoria in 2014 and the Abbott effect. Instead he got re-elected with a majority in both houses. Completely the opposite of what the papers were predicting.
simstrain
The only way Baird was going to lose in 2015 is if other political parties explained what their plans were but they didn't.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

We don't yet know the plan for dealing with this.You moron.

Many detailed documents have been produced some with a very thin veneer of suggesting that something will be done or doesn't need to be. Either that or they are completely silent. We know nothing will until it becomes a political issue or the liberals show some leadership (not possible with Minister Berejiklian). If there is any justice in the world, Gladys will lose her preselection for what she did to the rail system and the Western Line in particular but if the heads don't roll and the voters re-elect the liberals in 2019, they will be endorsing their disgraceful behaviour.
simonl
Where did this come from? and you didn't even add anything of value or correct my comment apart from "..something will be done or doesn't need to be", "We know nothing..."

Go take a chill pill!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
People said that Baird would lose in 2015 because of what happened in Victoria in 2014 and the Abbott effect. Instead he got re-elected with a majority in both houses. Completely the opposite of what the papers were predicting.
The only way Baird was going to lose in 2015 is if other political parties explained what their plans were but they didn't.
simonl
Realistically, the only way the LNP was going to loose 2015 election is if they didn't register with the Electrol Commission.

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