Train guards in firing line from NSW's $2.3 billion intercity fleet renewal

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 27 Sep 2016 11:34
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Does V/line make use of guards?   I know they have them for the long distance services. (maybe not a guard, but someone who performs guard like duties, similar to NSW trainlink).   Do the velocity's use guards?  

The melbourne suburban system gets away with it because its so flat, stations are dead straight and at carriage level.  
But Metro also are the worst rail providers in the nation.   While most of v/lines issues are because they don't have enough rollingstock.
tazzer96

Most  of Melbourne metro's platforms might be straight but they are most definitely not at carriage level. For wheelchairs to get on they have a raised section near the drivers door and even then the platform is not at carriage level and requires the driver to get out and use a ramp.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The DOO is going to happen although I've read some pretty pathetic excuses here and in Railway Digest and media for it not to happen, some not able to see past the fact the driver cannot see from his window on a curved platform. Yet buy a nice car and when reverse parking you can see on your reverse camera about 1m all the way around the car like you are looking from above.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

While there is no technical reason why DOO can't be done.   It's more a question of whether it should be done.  DOO does come with its downsides.  Far more work has to be put in to the rail network before any DOO revenue running can occur.  Savings should also be looked elsewhere first, DOO should be done properly and should be considered a long term goal.  Not something that can be done within the next 5 years.

1.  Full ATP implementation
2. More platforms full length and at carriage height (is there any platform in sydney that is level with the carriage?)
3. station's modified with extra safety and security measures.
4. you also need to give a pay rise to drivers and shorten their rosters because of the extra work and responsibility.
5.  You would also need to have more security/police/ticket inspection patrols on trains.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
While there is no technical reason why DOO can't be done.   It's more a question of whether it should be done.  DOO does come with its downsides.  Far more work has to be put in to the rail network before any DOO revenue running can occur.  Savings should also be looked elsewhere first, DOO should be done properly and should be considered a long term goal.  Not something that can be done within the next 5 years.

1.  Full ATP implementation
2. More platforms full length and at carriage height (is there any platform in sydney that is level with the carriage?)
3. station's modified with extra safety and security measures.
4. you also need to give a pay rise to drivers and shorten their rosters because of the extra work and responsibility.
5.  You would also need to have more security/police/ticket inspection patrols on trains.
tazzer96
Remember the services proposed for the IU stock is IU, ie in Sydney Metro area most/all stations used by IU are manned most of the time.

The off-set for removing guards should be more security/revenue protection on the train, however as the guards role barely covers this not a big deal but I'd want more anyway.

No need to pay driver more, is paid to be qualified to drive the train and do as capable while doing that task.
why is that as soon as you want your employees to do more, the first thing people say is you need to pay me more! I pay you based on your primary qualification and if there is time to do other lessor qualified tasks, you do it!!!
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Are there any metro systems in Australia other than cityrail where guards are deployed?
Only Brisbane and Sydney. However Perth, Melbourne and Adelaide run shorter trains than Sydney and their stations are not as curvaceous nor anywhere near as many on a curve of any description. Many of Brisbane's stations are also on very tight curves such that the platform has to be lower than the train to reduce the gap. The guard is also used to put ramps out for disabled and prams etc although I will say from personal observation not all are providing a service for the later.

While I agree the guards can provide an inbetween station service, I think many would agree this is not universal however I will speak highly of a few guards waking me up in my Central Coast commuting days coming home late and slept past my stop. The on board security to me is better dealt with police/Roving security who will arrive in numbers and with suitable training. The trains on board camera's can be monitored from a central location.

Obviously the union has a self interest, but there are some valid points that need to be addressed. However the obvious pathway forward for both Sydney and Brisbane is to go DOO and to do that you need to start somewhere and usually that is with the trains so buying trains with DOO capable in their design is commonsense and they cannot crucify the govt for doing so. The alt is a costly retrofit later. Brisbane uses the same rolling stock as Perth which has no guards. The path to DOO started in Sydney with the A sets, removing the guard from the centre of the train and putting them at the rear.
RTT_Rules

Why is it obvious that DOO is the way forward. Melbourne went DOO and look at how pathetic their system is. The only thing holding the Sydney system back is the interconnection of lines. More track is needed to separate lines near the CBD.

Subsidising rail in Sydney should be a no brainer and the government should be looking at providing better customer relations rather then penny pinching over guards. Guards are really good travel guides in addition to looking after train and passenger safety. They help keep trains running frequently and always have smile while doing so. The upside is that the train driver is also happy as he doesn't have to deal with anything other then driving the train.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Melbourne is a great example of what can go wrong with DOO. Note that most of melbournes problems aren't solely due to DOO, but it does make them worse.  Should be looking at perths model and build the system from the ground up to not need guards.  

The DMU routes in sydney are far better for DOO.  

Also have fun trying to get any union or even driver to agree to run DOO without a pay increase.   They would be doing more work, they would have to put an extra sentence in a job description.  even if you really feel like the pay increase isnt warranted, they can use it just for a pay increase.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Melbourne is a great example of what can go wrong with DOO. Note that most of melbournes problems are solely due to DOO, but it does make them worse.  Should be looking at perths model and build the system from the ground up to not need guards.  

The DMU routes in sydney are far better for DOO.  

Also have fun trying to get any union or even driver to agree to run DOO without a pay increase.   They would be doing more work, they would have to put an extra sentence in a job description.  even if you really feel like the pay increase isnt warranted, they can use it just for a pay increase.
tazzer96

I agree with all these points. What ever money you think you will save in not using guards you will more then make up for by having shorter work periods for drivers who will be more stressed and will want twice as much money for doing the guards job as well.

Perth is fine for DOO because it is a modern system, with modern design and access and DOO can be built into the whole network. As noted beforehand this is what is happening with the Sydney Metro as well.

Sydney is an old legacy system however (first line in 1851 although there was the Newcastle gravitational line in 1831) with old legacy problems. Melbourne is also an old legacy system and look at all the issues they have because someone tried to cheapskate.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Why is it obvious that DOO is the way forward. Melbourne went DOO and look at how pathetic their system is. The only thing holding the Sydney system back is the interconnection of lines. More track is needed to separate lines near the CBD.

Subsidising rail in Sydney should be a no brainer and the government should be looking at providing better customer relations rather then penny pinching over guards. Guards are really good travel guides in addition to looking after train and passenger safety. They help keep trains running frequently and always have smile while doing so. The upside is that the train driver is also happy as he doesn't have to deal with anything other then driving the train.
simstrain
Simple question

Has DOO in Melbourne caused any of the major problems that current plague the network?

While I agree there some tasks the guard could and at times does provide, in reality most of the guards role has become redundant due to technology and the man hours could be better used in other ways and certainly there are plenty of examples in other countries of this happening.  The IU trains are not in the same boat as the Suburbans.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Melbourne is a great example of what can go wrong with DOO. Note that most of melbournes problems are solely due to DOO, but it does make them worse.  Should be looking at perths model and build the system from the ground up to not need guards.  

The DMU routes in sydney are far better for DOO.  

Also have fun trying to get any union or even driver to agree to run DOO without a pay increase.   They would be doing more work, they would have to put an extra sentence in a job description.  even if you really feel like the pay increase isnt warranted, they can use it just for a pay increase.

I agree with all these points. What ever money you think you will save in not using guards you will more then make up for by having shorter work periods for drivers who will be more stressed and will want twice as much money for doing the guards job as well.

Perth is fine for DOO because it is a modern system, with modern design and access and DOO can be built into the whole network. As noted beforehand this is what is happening with the Sydney Metro as well.

Sydney is an old legacy system however (first line in 1851 although there was the Newcastle gravitational line in 1831) with old legacy problems. Melbourne is also an old legacy system and look at all the issues they have because someone tried to cheapskate.
simstrain
Are we looking at Sydney Suburban or IU? Comments seem to focused on Suburban which is not the proposal.

Having spent the best part of my youth commuting Gosford to Sydney I think I'm in a good position to see how it would change under DOO.

- In greater Sydney, most stops are at staffed stations
- In some stations the guard cannot see more than a few carriages and you are dreaming if you think otherwise. especially with a platform load of bodies, even on straight platforms.
- I would say most platforms are not at train height and how this is proposed to be managed I'll wait and see. The Railway operator has a "duty of care" for DAA users at stations tagged DAA friendly. QR with guards cannot even keep its website up to date.
- Biggest issue outside suburban area is revenue protection. If you are going from one small station to another or alighting at a small station who's there to keep an eye on revenue? The trains need frequent roving staff that does the job guards often do plus protect the asset, user and revenue.
- Throw a bucks at the drivers, resistance will be minimal.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Melbourne is a great example of what can go wrong with DOO. Note that most of melbournes problems are solely due to DOO, but it does make them worse.  Should be looking at perths model and build the system from the ground up to not need guards.  

The DMU routes in sydney are far better for DOO.  

Also have fun trying to get any union or even driver to agree to run DOO without a pay increase.   They would be doing more work, they would have to put an extra sentence in a job description.  even if you really feel like the pay increase isnt warranted, they can use it just for a pay increase.

I agree with all these points. What ever money you think you will save in not using guards you will more then make up for by having shorter work periods for drivers who will be more stressed and will want twice as much money for doing the guards job as well.

Perth is fine for DOO because it is a modern system, with modern design and access and DOO can be built into the whole network. As noted beforehand this is what is happening with the Sydney Metro as well.

Sydney is an old legacy system however (first line in 1851 although there was the Newcastle gravitational line in 1831) with old legacy problems. Melbourne is also an old legacy system and look at all the issues they have because someone tried to cheapskate.
Are we looking at Sydney Suburban or IU? Comments seem to focused on Suburban which is not the proposal.

Having spent the best part of my youth commuting Gosford to Sydney I think I'm in a good position to see how it would change under DOO.

- In greater Sydney, most stops are at staffed stations
- In some stations the guard cannot see more than a few carriages and you are dreaming if you think otherwise. especially with a platform load of bodies, even on straight platforms.
- I would say most platforms are not at train height and how this is proposed to be managed I'll wait and see. The Railway operator has a "duty of care" for DAA users at stations tagged DAA friendly. QR with guards cannot even keep its website up to date.
- Biggest issue outside suburban area is revenue protection. If you are going from one small station to another or alighting at a small station who's there to keep an eye on revenue? The trains need frequent roving staff that does the job guards often do plus protect the asset, user and revenue.
- Throw a bucks at the drivers, resistance will be minimal.
RTT_Rules
Don't know when the last time you were in Sydney, but things have changed.

Due to cost cutting most stations are not staffed or only have 1 staff member. Only the busiest and interchange stations have staff at each platform. Sydney's 4G trains have a cctv screen for the guards to see every entrance on the train. On older trains there are screens on the platform at some of the most heavily curved platforms. A guard doesn't allow the driver to automatically leave once the doors are closed. He does a double take and also listens for any problems once crowds clear before giving the driver the go ahead to depart. Do you think a driver would do the same thing?

There are revenue protection officers (not the security nazi's that Melbourne have) and police who roam the network for revenue protection. Opal is self policing because if you tag on at one station and you don't tag off then you have to pay a default fare. Also if Opal use goes down at a station then the number of trains stopping at that station can be reduced. Most people are law abiding and eventually you will get caught with fare evasion and the fine is quite large. Certainly more then what you would save by not tapping on.

Resistance won't be minimal even if you double the wage. In Australia things cost more and the drivers won't accept an extra $ for having to do significantly more work, especially if it puts them in danger of having an accident. A driver can't drive the train and respond to the emergency comm stations on our trains at the same time. A guard can and with the CCTV on modern trains can see the problem and record it and call the police in at the next station. Guards are also good at letting people know up to date information.

DDA compliance is more then fixing the gap onto the train. The guard is 100% better suited to helping a disabled person then a driver and can do this significantly faster without having to shut the train down. Most stations already have the wheelchair ramp near the guards point and changing them will just take more money. Sydney's trains will always have a gap and will therefore always need a ramp to allow disabled passengers on.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

When I was last in Sydney, I was told by a light rail conductor that the heavy rail doesn't have any ticket inspectors.   Only police do basic revenue protection.   I wasn't surprised as I have never seen a ticket inspector (apart from light rail) in sydney, meanwhile in brisbane you can get lucky and get checked twice in one journey.

Even in sydney, most stations are not staffed from 4am - 12am.  It is these late hours that I would also not like a driver getting out of the cab, think of the consequences of having some idiots take over a train.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

When I was last in Sydney, I was told by a light rail conductor that the heavy rail doesn't have any ticket inspectors.   Only police do basic revenue protection.   I wasn't surprised as I have never seen a ticket inspector (apart from light rail) in sydney, meanwhile in brisbane you can get lucky and get checked twice in one journey.

Even in sydney, most stations are not staffed from 4am - 12am.  It is these late hours that I would also not like a driver getting out of the cab, think of the consequences of having some idiots take over a train.
tazzer96

There are no ticket inspectors like the light rail. But there are staff aside from police that roam trains to check on valid opal cards.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Don't know when the last time you were in Sydney, but things have changed.

Due to cost cutting most stations are not staffed or only have 1 staff member. Only the busiest and interchange stations have staff at each platform. Sydney's 4G trains have a cctv screen for the guards to see every entrance on the train. On older trains there are screens on the platform at some of the most heavily curved platforms. A guard doesn't allow the driver to automatically leave once the doors are closed. He does a double take and also listens for any problems once crowds clear before giving the driver the go ahead to depart. Do you think a driver would do the same thing?

There are revenue protection officers (not the security nazi's that Melbourne have) and police who roam the network for revenue protection. Opal is self policing because if you tag on at one station and you don't tag off then you have to pay a default fare. Also if Opal use goes down at a station then the number of trains stopping at that station can be reduced. Most people are law abiding and eventually you will get caught with fare evasion and the fine is quite large. Certainly more then what you would save by not tapping on.

Resistance won't be minimal even if you double the wage. In Australia things cost more and the drivers won't accept an extra $ for having to do significantly more work, especially if it puts them in danger of having an accident. A driver can't drive the train and respond to the emergency comm stations on our trains at the same time. A guard can and with the CCTV on modern trains can see the problem and record it and call the police in at the next station. Guards are also good at letting people know up to date information.

DDA compliance is more then fixing the gap onto the train. The guard is 100% better suited to helping a disabled person then a driver and can do this significantly faster without having to shut the train down. Most stations already have the wheelchair ramp near the guards point and changing them will just take more money. Sydney's trains will always have a gap and will therefore always need a ramp to allow disabled passengers on.
simstrain
I was there and using Sydney trains in APril.

We are talking IU, they tend to only use the busiest stations

If the driver is trained to do the same thing as part of his SOP, yes!

what I see is the guards blowing whistle is a position of viewing, walking back to train, clearing the train and at times the guard immediately closing the door within a few seconds of the train moving, especially in bad weather. Once the train is moving on a curved platform, if someone was to fall down, its over, the guard cannot see and it takes too long to stop a train from even 10km/hr to prevent most likely fatal injuries.

In IU areas, the likely hood of ticket evasion is higher, it was under paper system and is under OPAL system

The bulk of the drivers work is driving the train, whether DOO or not. If not DOO then at stations they wait to be told to leave, under DOO they wait the typical time frame, look at the indicators and monitors, press close (I was told but not sure if true the Qld drivers actually close the doors, the guard just tells them to close) and away you go. The door sensors won't allow the train to move if they are not closed and indicate where there is a blockage. For a 10% payrise, the drivers will bend over.

I have no doubt part of the guards role is very useful in providing customer support, but in their current role this is limited for most. Yes I have seen guards walk through the train asking where people are getting off etc, many years ago, not recent times.

As I said, if they copy the job description I saw used in Italy by IU guards, I see their role as far more viable. But sitting in their cubical and only popping their heads out at stations, often briefly, no. May as well get rid of them.
  sthyer Deputy Commissioner


Has DOO in Melbourne caused any of the major problems that current plague the network?

While I agree there some tasks the guard could and at times does provide, in reality most of the guards role has become redundant due to technology and the man hours could be better used in other ways and certainly there are plenty of examples in other countries of this happening.  The IU trains are not in the same boat as the Suburbans.
RTT_Rules

The answer to that is probably 'yes'. There have been fatalities. On-time running is hard to achieve when the driver has to get out of the cab to load wheel chair passengers. Many stations are difficult to see the end of the train, often requiring more time to ensure safety before closing the door. In the event of DOO infrastructure (platform monitors), it takes about 5 mins to lock up, walk to the middle cab, close doors and return. Security on trains is poor, with no-one staring at the CCTV, there is a feeling that 'anything goes' among ferals. If you compare Sydney trains with CCTV to those without, you can see that those with are a lot less vandalised, thus the assumption that the guard is monitoring the train has some sort of behavioural effect.

When Melbourne got rid of guards, patronage was low. With current patronage, I think a modern Melbourne system would think twice about getting rid of them. Having said that, they won't bring them back!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Has DOO in Melbourne caused any of the major problems that current plague the network?

While I agree there some tasks the guard could and at times does provide, in reality most of the guards role has become redundant due to technology and the man hours could be better used in other ways and certainly there are plenty of examples in other countries of this happening.  The IU trains are not in the same boat as the Suburbans.
The answer to that is probably 'yes'. There have been fatalities. On-time running is hard to achieve when the driver has to get out of the cab to load wheel chair passengers. Many stations are difficult to see the end of the train, often requiring more time to ensure safety before closing the door. In the event of DOO infrastructure (platform monitors), it takes about 5 mins to lock up, walk to the middle cab, close doors and return. Security on trains is poor, with no-one staring at the CCTV, there is a feeling that 'anything goes' among ferals. If you compare Sydney trains with CCTV to those without, you can see that those with are a lot less vandalised, thus the assumption that the guard is monitoring the train has some sort of behavioural effect.

When Melbourne got rid of guards, patronage was low. With current patronage, I think a modern Melbourne system would think twice about getting rid of them. Having said that, they won't bring them back!
sthyer
So people have been killed because there are no guards in Melbourne ? That's what you are saying? So where are the recommendations or reports from the Coroner?

Agree, OT running is more difficult if the driver has to get out and help, but the total delay isn't because the driver is out of the cab the entire time, its just a bit longer because its the driver, not the guard. The key point here is also frequency of having to do this? To be honest we all know the wheel chairs are not very frequent and certainly I've caught trains in Melbourne for a week and I think maybe once, the driver got out.

Many stations in Sydney are difficult to actually completely impossible fro the guard to see, driver or guard!

Why is the driver walking to the middle cab?

CCTV monitoring for the purposed of overall security should be centralised in this day and age. Older trains need to be either phased out or upgraded to CCTV. This has nothing to do with the guard.

So, what you are saying is Melbourne got rid of guards when patronage was low, the numbers have since boomed without the service provided by the guard and the govt should consider bringing them back because now there are larger numbers?  I agree the more people who use the train, the less the issue of cost.

Please remember, Sydney is not proposing to remove guards from the suburban fleet, its the IU fleet, completely different arrangement. I've said this a few times now and we keep falling into the issues of Suburban Melbourne. As a former long term commuter on the route proposed to remove the guards, I am a bit surprised, but in reality most of the guards role has been removed by technology and while the continue to sit in their dogbox I think removal is probably best outcome for the Taxpayer who pays for this.

However having traveled in Italy IU (from Florence, 2 stops both ways) where I saw the guard (older female) be a true customer service role, I would support retaining the guard. In the 10min we sat on the train before we left and 15min ride to our station and return.
- She walked the length 8 car train multiple times
- Checked tickets
- Sold tickets
- Helped a DAA passenger to her seat and move others out of the most suitable seat, confirmed her destination and said she would be help her at that station.
- Cleared the train from any door
- Answer questions by travellers (tourists not speaking Italian) in their seats
- Answer questions by travelers on the platform
- Helped a woman with a pram and small children and many items to her seat
- Checked some technical issue with driver
- When not busy she was with the driver (we were in front car and could see)

That's customer service!
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
What RTT-Rules says is very interesting but I would be extremely surprised to see the Rail Operators here whole heartedly support such actions by their staff.
I base this comment on the fact the operators are doing their damnedest to remove staff from stations and closing them down.

Despite complaining to the media about Fare evasion, a now late friend was told by the management not to make any effort to stop anyone traveling without a ticket.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What RTT-Rules says is very interesting but I would be extremely surprised to see the Rail Operators here whole heartedly support such actions by their staff.
I base this comment on the fact the operators are doing their damnedest to remove staff from stations and closing them down.

Despite complaining to the media about Fare evasion, a now late friend was told by the management not to make any effort to stop anyone traveling without a ticket.
gordon_s1942
Hi,
I work in an industry that is contracting and the policy is to remove roles that are adding less value than their salaries, adding no or little value to the business or not needed for legal and safety reasons.

As I said I think the guards role as it stands has outlived its usefulness, but I see changing the role could add greater value to Sydney Trains. Less face it, you don't need a guard to clear a train at most stations used by IU services if the technology is in place and their are no special needs people. The stations still with staff are generally used by IU services and with the right systems in place a staff member can assist special needs people at both ends of the route. If however the station is not staffed and not suitable for self unloading/loading, then on these rare occasions the driver steps in. Again we are talking IU, not Sub services.

I totally agree that in the Italian case you would not expect this guard to physically get involved and nor should they. However again technology can help. Police are now wearing cameras and trains are increasingly filled with them. You ask for ticket, told they don't have, you ask for them to pay, they refuse, you ask for their names to issue a fine, they refuse. Its all on camera, leave it to others to resolve.
  sthyer Deputy Commissioner


So people have been killed because there are no guards in Melbourne ? That's what you are saying? So where are the recommendations or reports from the Coroner?

Agree, OT running is more difficult if the driver has to get out and help, but the total delay isn't because the driver is out of the cab the entire time, its just a bit longer because its the driver, not the guard. The key point here is also frequency of having to do this? To be honest we all know the wheel chairs are not very frequent and certainly I've caught trains in Melbourne for a week and I think maybe once, the driver got out.

Many stations in Sydney are difficult to actually completely impossible fro the guard to see, driver or guard!

Why is the driver walking to the middle cab?

CCTV monitoring for the purposed of overall security should be centralised in this day and age. Older trains need to be either phased out or upgraded to CCTV. This has nothing to do with the guard.

So, what you are saying is Melbourne got rid of guards when patronage was low, the numbers have since boomed without the service provided by the guard and the govt should consider bringing them back because now there are larger numbers?  I agree the more people who use the train, the less the issue of cost.
RTT_Rules

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/train-fault-led-to-passengers-death-20110105-19g8x.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/teenager-died-trying-to-jump-aboard-moving-metro-train-court-hears-20151214-glnai1.html
Whether these deaths could have been prevented be train guards is a matter of conjecture, but I believe in both cases, the view afforded to the guard would have left him able to act to prevent the deaths.

Sorry, should have clarified. Driver walks to the middle cab to be able to view doors are all clear, then uses door controls there to close the doors. Typically, this is on a curved platform. The basic rule is 'if you can't see all your doors, don't try to close them'. This can also be affected by dirty or broken mirrors, excessive loading on platforms (NYE etc), poor weather.

I don't disagree with CCTV monitoring being potentially centralised, I was suggesting that monitored CCTV (Sydney), seems to deter vandalism unlike unmonitored CCTV (Melbourne).

As to whether guards should return, I don't know. A safety case to remove guards based on patronage of 20 years ago versus patronage of today would most likely yield a different result. I do not expect guards to return in Melbourne.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

In what universe do most stations the IU's stop at staffed?   Only the the express services on the newcastle line and in the sydney area are staffed.   Only the big stations on the blue mountains and south coast lines staffed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/train-fault-led-to-passengers-death-20110105-19g8x.html

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/teenager-died-trying-to-jump-aboard-moving-metro-train-court-hears-20151214-glnai1.html
Whether these deaths could have been prevented be train guards is a matter of conjecture, but I believe in both cases, the view afforded to the guard would have left him able to act to prevent the deaths.

Sorry, should have clarified. Driver walks to the middle cab to be able to view doors are all clear, then uses door controls there to close the doors. Typically, this is on a curved platform. The basic rule is 'if you can't see all your doors, don't try to close them'. This can also be affected by dirty or broken mirrors, excessive loading on platforms (NYE etc), poor weather.

I don't disagree with CCTV monitoring being potentially centralised, I was suggesting that monitored CCTV (Sydney), seems to deter vandalism unlike unmonitored CCTV (Melbourne).

As to whether guards should return, I don't know. A safety case to remove guards based on patronage of 20 years ago versus patronage of today would most likely yield a different result. I do not expect guards to return in Melbourne.
sthyer
In both those examples I read, "passenger interfered with the trains doors" and link to drugs in one article and stopped reading.

Dubai Metro operates a Metro with no guard or driver or platform staff and moves 500,000 people a day and no one gets killed because someone held open the doors because they don't.

Regarding the driver walking, old train technology, the NSW trains are one set not 2 joined.

Which is why CCTV should be rolled out more. Guards or not and being centralised.

Potentially the train technology used in Melbourne at the time was not up to the task, big TV's on stations, mirrors etc is really cave man material compared to how it would be done today. Then again around the same time Melbourne went DOO, Sydney was finally withdrawing trains with no automatic doors, no CCTV, no announcements, not even a Speedo and the driver sitting on a wooden stool alongside a slide open door always open in summer and no head lights.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The reason why there is no vandalism in dubai is to do with sharia law. If you damage a train you have your arms cut off and are left to bleed to death.

As for Melbourne going DOO and Sydney's automatic doors. Melbourne's train doors are still able to be opened while the train is moving. So while one train system was going tight smeg the other was working on making the system safer for everybody. This process included removing level crossings, fencing the whole network as well as the introduction of traction interlocking. The only thing left is the platform gaps/curves and access onto the track at platforms.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The reason why there is no vandalism in dubai is to do with sharia law. If you damage a train you have your arms cut off and are left to bleed to death.

As for Melbourne going DOO and Sydney's automatic doors. Melbourne's train doors are still able to be opened while the train is moving. So while one train system was going tight smeg the other was working on making the system safer for everybody. This process included removing level crossings, fencing the whole network as well as the introduction of traction interlocking. The only thing left is the platform gaps/curves and access onto the track at platforms.
simstrain
I know your reference to Dubai is tongue in cheek as the reason and law comments are incorrect, Dubai/UAE's legal system is based on multiple denominations including Roman and French. The vandalism is more cultural in that people have more respect for each other and property in Dubai than Australia.

And hence why we need to be careful referencing Melbourne's outdated rolling stock.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The reason why there is no vandalism in dubai is to do with sharia law. If you damage a train you have your arms cut off and are left to bleed to death.

As for Melbourne going DOO and Sydney's automatic doors. Melbourne's train doors are still able to be opened while the train is moving. So while one train system was going tight smeg the other was working on making the system safer for everybody. This process included removing level crossings, fencing the whole network as well as the introduction of traction interlocking. The only thing left is the platform gaps/curves and access onto the track at platforms.
I know your reference to Dubai is tongue in cheek as the reason and law comments are incorrect, Dubai/UAE's legal system is based on multiple denominations including Roman and French. The vandalism is more cultural in that people have more respect for each other and property in Dubai than Australia.

And hence why we need to be careful referencing Melbourne's outdated rolling stock.
RTT_Rules

Then why is there a lady facing a jail sentence for being raped in Dubai? What western society has laws that make a raped woman complicit in the crime?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/17/briton-reported-rape-dubai-extramarital-sex-charge
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Oh and this also happened to a norwegian women in dubai and a dutch women in qatar. Please explain how this isn't sharia law?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The reason why there is no vandalism in dubai is to do with sharia law. If you damage a train you have your arms cut off and are left to bleed to death.

As for Melbourne going DOO and Sydney's automatic doors. Melbourne's train doors are still able to be opened while the train is moving. So while one train system was going tight smeg the other was working on making the system safer for everybody. This process included removing level crossings, fencing the whole network as well as the introduction of traction interlocking. The only thing left is the platform gaps/curves and access onto the track at platforms.
I know your reference to Dubai is tongue in cheek as the reason and law comments are incorrect, Dubai/UAE's legal system is based on multiple denominations including Roman and French. The vandalism is more cultural in that people have more respect for each other and property in Dubai than Australia.

And hence why we need to be careful referencing Melbourne's outdated rolling stock.

Then why is there a lady facing a jail sentence for being raped in Dubai? What western society has laws that make a raped woman complicit in the crime?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/nov/17/briton-reported-rape-dubai-extramarital-sex-charge
simstrain
You said its Sharia Law, its not, its made up of a number of components from different legal backgrounds including Sharia. It is also becoming more westernised. If Dubai was ruled by purely Sharia Law, I and about 2m other western expats would probably not be living here.

Generally if a single women is sexually assaulted in Dubai, she needs to first seek urgent consular assistance and decide whether she wants to lodge the case with the police as it will be handled differently to their home country.  

Regard to this woman, yes under the law of the land she has been detained. This is a down side for Single women who have undergone sexual assault and one area that is improving but slowly but you have to understand the background for why this is the case.

Under true Sharia law the victim would need for Muslim men to witness the assault.

In Dubai it is illegal for anyone to have sex out of marriage, but I can assure you this law is broken by probably 1000000 people a week. If you want more of an explanation on this PM me. But as with anything in Dubai, its considered ok until someone complains, then they throw the book at you.

Under Dubai law there must be clear evidence to demonstrate a sexual assault has taken place which is why the men involved have also been detained in Dubai. Note she is not in jail, just merely prevented from leaving the country until the case is resolved because currently the case has two outcomes. She is either guilty of breaking the law or they all are, just the offence differs. Under Dubai law, you cannot have a stalemate. A case was raised and it must be closed and it is closed with proof of evidence which in this case must have a guilty verdict against someone.

I can also quote numerous cases where usually local men have tried to tell the judge under Islam they shouldn't be convicted of rape but just get thrown in jail. Typically when it comes to locals committing murder and sexual assault against foreigners especially westerners they throw the book at them and its quick. Again I can quote numerous examples including the only terrorist killing where the attacker (local woman) was at the wrong end of a firing squad before the Man Monis case went to the Coroner.

Overall the rules are different here, its not Australia, just like the other 211 sovereign states in the world. Up until only recently a UK husband couldn't be convicted of raping his wife under UK law! Overall women are far safer from violent or sexual attack in Dubai than Australia (check the stats) and I would not object to my wife walking down almost any street in Dubai any time day or night. Just like Australia, her standard of dress may impact on the outcome but this is same anywhere in the world. You can see this country is safer because seriously you will never see so much boobs and smeg in Dubai (why do you think I don't want to leave just yet), especially at night and women normally don't pull out the good stuff unless they feel confident and safe.

I saw the FB comments on this case, and seriously most people don't have a clue. No kissing, no alcohol, no holding hands, Sharia Law, Women are unsafe all complete BS.

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