NE SG line, post gauge conversion

 
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik

Thanks Woodford. So the 3 hour 45 minutes becomes a more respectable 3 hours 20 minutes.How long did the 'Spirit' take in its heyday?
Lockspike

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  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik

Thanks Woodford. So the 3 hour 45 minutes becomes a more respectable 3 hours 20 minutes.How long did the 'Spirit' take in its heyday?
Lockspike
3 hours 50 minutes in 1954 - B class around 11/550 tons.  (1830/2220)
S class (steam) appears to have had the same running time but was more capable than the B class. (230 minutes for 191 miles including Glenroy and Heathcote Junction banks.)
Doesn't say much for progress since !!! Even allowing for less than half the load and a few stops.
  woodford Chief Commissioner


Thanks Woodford. So the 3 hour 45 minutes becomes a more respectable 3 hours 20 minutes.How long did the 'Spirit' take in its heyday?
Lockspike
3 hours 50 minutes in 1954 - B class around 11/550 tons.  (1830/2220)
S class (steam) appears to have had the same running time but was more capable than the B class. (230 minutes for 191 miles including Glenroy and Heathcote Junction banks.)
Doesn't say much for progress since !!! Even allowing for less than half the load and a few stops.
"YM-Mundrabilla"



The S class steamers had a DRAWBAR power of around 2500BHP a B class diesel was around 1300bhp, ie the S had nearly double the effective power. The VR planners even then did not understand the differnece between power and tractive effort. THe S's having a lower tractive effort than a B class but vastly higher power.

Note: the S class steamers requiered 2 fireman between Melbourne and  Seymour as a single fireman can only move enough coal to maintain around 1500BHP. Iwas though told by an old driver that if one put 400 shovel  fulls (just under 2 tons) of coal on at Spencer st.a single fireman could maintain the steam pressure untill Heathcotte Junction.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Post Script, H220, a loco that spent most of its life on the Albury line had a drawbar power of around 3500bhp, this was not reached by a single diesel loco until the early 1990's nearly 40 YEARS after H220 was retired.

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If it was upgraded to allow the XPT to do 160km/h then surely that would only be about 2h 30 minutes or so.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

If it was upgraded to allow the XPT to do 160km/h then surely that would only be about 2h 30 minutes or so.
"simstrain"


The line south of Seymour cannot be upgraded without spending vast sums of money, so the time for that section is always going to be around 1H 20. The VLIne train also stops at Seymour, Avenal, Euroa, Violet Town, Benalla, Wanagarratta, Springhusrt, Chiltern and Wodonga. With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
  M636C Minister for Railways

While the improvement since 1937 isn't significant, a reduction in five minutes for an all stations train now over a non stop train pre WWII including running somewhat further to go via Albion isn't too bad.

The fact that a billion dollars has been spent on the parallel road means that rail is less competitive since road times have been significantly reduced.

But that isn't the fault of V/line or the ARTC.

Some time could be saved by extending double track south of Seymour, which would benefit freight traffic as well. This could be done by converting the Shepparton line to standard gauge, which would increase the pool of SG rollingstock for both services.

Peter
  skitz Chief Commissioner

snip' With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
woodford
Just ask anyone on the Gippsland line.  The station distribution on that line needs a serious looking at.  The time spent at 160km/hr is measured in seconds before the brakes are on.   Even to the point a Sprinter is practically no slower than a Vlocity.

At the least the NE has its station further apart.
  t_woodroffe Assistant Commissioner

Woodford,

The S Class 4-6-2 steam locomotives in SOP service DID NOT regularly run with two firemen Spencer Street to Seymour. Your presumption that the "VR planners" did not know the difference between horsepower and tractive effort is an insult to CME Ahlston and his team. Who do you think developed the DBHP/TE curves for the S Class and the H Class? Ahlston and company knew full well the difference in power out put over the speed range of the B and S Class locomotives.  As YMM pointed out there was no difference in running time of the SOP after the B Class replaced the S Class. Superimpose the DBHP curves of the B and the S and see the major difference in power versus speed. Ahlston and team did exactly that. The VR sweated the new asset remarkably well and the far superior availability and utilisation potential of the B Class DEs over the S Class was demonstrated in short order.  

BTW VR passenger car axles were designed and equipped with wheel journals (long seats) to suit either BG or SG from the early 20th century. The N Class on the SG use D 77 traction motors equipped with 59:18 gear/pinion allowing higher speed operation than the D 43 traction motored N Class. Whether VLine make use of the 133 km/h plus capability of the 59:18 gear ratio is a moot point. The bogies were not new; they were overhauled and equipped with SG wheelsets. There is absolutely no reason why a D 43 traction motored N Class could not be converted to standard gauge.

TW
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I thank t_woodroffe for yet another excellent and very knowledgeable post. As TW knows, my father was one of CME Ahlston's team, and he would not have been amused by Woodford's unfounded accusations of incompetence.

Two firemen on the SOP's S class Pacific is one of the oldest urban myths going around.

A fit fireman was reckoned to be able to shovel six 10-pound scoops of coal a minute, and would fire around about six tons (if my memory serves me correctly) of good quality Maitland coal between Melbourne and Albury. After Heathcote Junction, he wasn't continually firing, and had  time for a few "extras" such as keeping the cab floor clean, and  on the single line after Mangalore he could amuse himself by making the staff exchanges. For all of this, he received an extra 2 shillings a day in his pay packet!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
I was always of the view only one fireman on the 'Spirit as the below second from the left image shows.

http://prov.vic.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/VPRS-12800-P4-RS-0468.jpg


Mike.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
My understanding was that two firemen were rostered on occasions when 'inferior' coal had to be used.

Never heard that a second firemen was rostered to Seymour only and that a stop was made there to detrain him; but there is a lot that I haven't heard of!

Similarly, I have never heard of the SoP being doubled headed with an S class plus whatever. H, C, (certainly) 2 x A2 and 2 x R (probably).
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
My understanding was that two firemen were rostered on occasions when 'inferior' coal had to be used.
"YM-Mundrabilla"
Negative.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
My understanding was that two firemen were rostered on occasions when 'inferior' coal had to be used.
Negative.
Valvegear
Thanks Valvegear. Something else that I have learned for the day. I was sure that I had read it years ago but no idea where, when or if the author even knew what he was talking about! There is so much rubbish and folklore around these days. Rolling Eyes
  mrmoopt Chief Commissioner

Location: _
snip' With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
Just ask anyone on the Gippsland line.  The station distribution on that line needs a serious looking at.  The time spent at 160km/hr is measured in seconds before the brakes are on.   Even to the point a Sprinter is practically no slower than a Vlocity.

At the least the NE has its station further apart.
skitz
So we know that rolling stock strategies in the future needs to include specs for acceleration not just for top speed.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

snip' With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
Just ask anyone on the Gippsland line.  The station distribution on that line needs a serious looking at.  The time spent at 160km/hr is measured in seconds before the brakes are on.   Even to the point a Sprinter is practically no slower than a Vlocity.

At the least the NE has its station further apart.
So we know that rolling stock strategies in the future needs to include specs for acceleration not just for top speed.
calt

Unfortunately, very unlikely with diesel power, the Cummins QSK19R used in the VLocity's is a large engine (19 litre 6 cylinder, weight around 1900Kg) it would be quite difficult to squeeze anything larger under the floor of a carriage. One could try a push pull arrangement using something like a pair of British class 68's (85 ton, 3600bhp), that still only brings the power to weight ratio to around 15bhp/ ton. Both the Vlocity's and the Sprinters have a power to weight ratio of around 10.5 bhp/ton.

The only real way to produce high accelartion trains is to electrify the line, one can get VERY high power's in a light weight then. Its no accident that all the real fast train systems are electrified.

With a stopping all stations service its VERY difficult with diesel power to get a maximum speed much over 130kph, this is why on such services the VLocity is no quicker than a Sprinter (max speeds 160 and 130kph respectively)

woodford
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
snip' With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
Just ask anyone on the Gippsland line.  The station distribution on that line needs a serious looking at.  The time spent at 160km/hr is measured in seconds before the brakes are on.   Even to the point a Sprinter is practically no slower than a Vlocity.

At the least the NE has its station further apart.
skitz

A case in point...

This year I travelled to Traralgon to have Christmas lunch with friends. Christmas Day was a forecast 37C and the down, 'The Gippslander' arrived at Traralgon on time.

The up journey at 16:29, a VLocity was subject to Heat Speed Restrictions (WOLO's), however due to the closeness of the stations to each other and the stopping all stations timetable, we arrived at Southern Cross station a mere 13 mins late.

Mike.
  tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

Velocitys have an incredibly fast acceleration for a diesel train.  There aren't many DMU's in the world that are better in this aspect while still be able to obtain 160km/h in a reasonable time.   They were bought to do a job that an electric train really should be doing.  Anywhere else in the world the Ballarat, bendigo, geelong, traralagon lines would be electrified.  Leaving DMU's to the runs that go beyond the main stations and the seymour line.  

In the case of the traralagon, seymour, and bendigo lines.  Far would be be gained from duplication/more loops and seperation of services in the metro area.
  Flygon Train Controller

Location: Australia
So we know that rolling stock strategies in the future needs to include specs for acceleration not just for top speed.
calt
VLocity DMUs already have some of the most ridiculously high acceleration figures for a DMU internationally. On paper, it already runs about par with (if not better than) older EMUs.

I'm going with the above posters here, you basically have to electrify, and/or figure out how to handle the station spacing. Or a third option, express track, which carries with it it's own operational expenses and difficulties.

EDIT - And once again, an above poster makes my point 2 minutes before I post. Razz
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Velocitys have an incredibly fast acceleration for a diesel train.  There aren't many DMU's in the world that are better in this aspect while still be able to obtain 160km/h in a reasonable time.   They were bought to do a job that an electric train really should be doing.  Anywhere else in the world the Ballarat, bendigo, geelong, traralagon lines would be electrified.  Leaving DMU's to the runs that go beyond the main stations and the seymour line.  

In the case of the traralagon, seymour, and bendigo lines.  Far would be be gained from duplication/more loops and seperation of services in the metro area.
"tazzer96"


As you say, Much could be done in the suburban area, unfortunately because of political sensitivities its the area that is least likely to be addressed.

woodford
  raymcd Locomotive Driver

Location: Artarmon NSW
If it was upgraded to allow the XPT to do 160km/h then surely that would only be about 2h 30 minutes or so.


The line south of Seymour cannot be upgraded without spending vast sums of money, so the time for that section is always going to be around 1H 20. The VLIne train also stops at Seymour, Avenal, Euroa, Violet Town, Benalla, Wanagarratta, Springhusrt, Chiltern and Wodonga. With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
woodford
Hello Woodford,
What is the current speed limit for XPT in Mexico ? Last time I rode it was 120 km/h; seemed like crawling after 160 km/h north of the Murray.

Ray
  woodford Chief Commissioner

If it was upgraded to allow the XPT to do 160km/h then surely that would only be about 2h 30 minutes or so.


The line south of Seymour cannot be upgraded without spending vast sums of money, so the time for that section is always going to be around 1H 20. The VLIne train also stops at Seymour, Avenal, Euroa, Violet Town, Benalla, Wanagarratta, Springhusrt, Chiltern and Wodonga. With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
Hello Woodford,
What is the current speed limit for XPT in Mexico ? Last time I rode it was 120 km/h; seemed like crawling after 160 km/h north of the Murray.

Ray
raymcd
I believe it still is 120kph as nothing has changed, the line speed is 130kph, 120kph is the limit imposed on the XPT for level crossings with no warning systems. ARTC is gradually fitting these with lights and boom gates.

Note:ARTC was only interested in 110kph speed limit, Victoria had to fight hard to get them to agree to 130kph.

woodford
  raymcd Locomotive Driver

Location: Artarmon NSW
If it was upgraded to allow the XPT to do 160km/h then surely that would only be about 2h 30 minutes or so.


The line south of Seymour cannot be upgraded without spending vast sums of money, so the time for that section is always going to be around 1H 20. The VLIne train also stops at Seymour, Avenal, Euroa, Violet Town, Benalla, Wanagarratta, Springhusrt, Chiltern and Wodonga. With such short sections 160kph running is not as good as it sounds.

woodford
Hello Woodford,
What is the current speed limit for XPT in Mexico ? Last time I rode it was 120 km/h; seemed like crawling after 160 km/h north of the Murray.

Ray
I believe it still is 120kph as nothing has changed, the line speed is 130kph, 120kph is the limit imposed on the XPT for level crossings with no warning systems. ARTC is gradually fitting these with lights and boom gates.

Note:ARTC was only interested in 110kph speed limit, Victoria had to fight hard to get them to agree to 130kph.

woodford
woodford
Thank you woodford.
In NSW there are 120 speed boards before passive level crossings followed immediately after the crossing by 160. Must be annoying for drivers. There are still too many private crossings here (which I am sure the ARTC would love to get rid of).
raymcd
  L1150 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Pakenham Vic.
While reference to the Gippsland line is a bit off-topic, I would like to add that performance is linked to driving style. On a recent run from Traralgon ,our driver was what I would call "enthusiastic". He squeezed every last bit of grunt, quickly gaining 160Kph, even between the closer stations. While I agree it doesn't give much timetable advantage, it certainly was a satisfying journey.Very Happy
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
While reference to the Gippsland line is a bit off-topic, I would like to add that performance is linked to driving style. On a recent run from Traralgon ,our driver was what I would call "enthusiastic". He squeezed every last bit of grunt, quickly gaining 160Kph, even between the closer stations.
"L1150"
Where, on the Gippsland line, could you do 160 km/h? Who clocked the speed, and how? What are the posted limits (if any) on that line?

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