Ferries for Melbourne?

 
Topic moved from Melbourne suburban by dthead on 01 Feb 2017 07:51
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

Tell me below where you think ferries in Melbourne should go. Please tell me the line name, stops and any other important information. Let's try and keep all lines starting at Station Pier.

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  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra. Instead, extend and widen Station Pier with new commuter berths, a customs facility for international visitors, and an extensions of tram route 109 all the way down the pier.

The only way that ferries will ever be successful is if they are significantly faster than any other mode of transport. In Melbourne this means ferries would have to run point-to-point across the bay without any intermediate stops.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra. Instead, extend and widen Station Pier with new commuter berths, a customs facility for international visitors, and an extensions of tram route 109 all the way down the pier.

The only way that ferries will ever be successful is if they are significantly faster than any other mode of transport. In Melbourne this means ferries would have to run point-to-point across the bay without any intermediate stops.
railblogger
Ok then, thank you. I did not know that. They could make Station Pier like Sydney's Circular Quay. Ferries could also be successful if they stop in places with no other mode of transport or in areas with overcrowded transport. Ferries would never have intermediate stops due to stopping at wharfs is much harder than pulling up at a station/stop. In our case ferries could have 'stop' buttons if people want to get off, otherwise it would not stop unless someone wants to board.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra. Instead, extend and widen Station Pier with new commuter berths, a customs facility for international visitors, and an extensions of tram route 109 all the way down the pier.

The only way that ferries will ever be successful is if they are significantly faster than any other mode of transport. In Melbourne this means ferries would have to run point-to-point across the bay without any intermediate stops.
Ok then, thank you. I did not know that. They could make Station Pier like Sydney's Circular Quay. Ferries could also be successful if they stop in places with no other mode of transport or in areas with overcrowded transport. Ferries would never have intermediate stops due to stopping at wharfs is much harder than pulling up at a station/stop. In our case ferries could have 'stop' buttons if people want to get off, otherwise it would not stop unless someone wants to board.
Mr Gus Meister
Ferries would need to be completely express for their whole journey due to Melbourne's geographical layout.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
They could make Station Pier like Sydney's Circular Quay.
Mr Gus Meister
Not easily.
Circular Quay abuts the Sydney CBD and Station Pier is a few km from the CBD in Melbourne.
Circular Quay has heaps of buses, a railway station with frequent trains in both directions, and numerous food shops and others within 200 metres. Station Pier has none of these.
It's a nice dream, but that's all it will be in the foreseeable future.
Nobody is going to build a nice new ferry terminal without being certain that ferries will be a success. Nobody will know if they'll be successful until a fleet goes into service. It's Catch 22.
You have to remember that Circular Quay and its ferry services evolved over many decades as a means of public transport, most of which started because people needed to get from the north shore to the city. There was no Harbour Bridge until 1932, and no Gladesville Bridge until about 1960. Sydney Ferries has now grown to an imposing size, serving places as far apart as Parramatta and Manly. Sydney people have to get across the harbour; Melbournians travel around the bay. . . big difference.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

They could make Station Pier like Sydney's Circular Quay.
Not easily.
Circular Quay abuts the Sydney CBD and Station Pier is a few km from the CBD in Melbourne.
Circular Quay has heaps of buses, a railway station with frequent trains in both directions, and numerous food shops and others within 200 metres. Station Pier has none of these.
It's a nice dream, but that's all it will be in the foreseeable future.
Nobody is going to build a nice new ferry terminal without being certain that ferries will be a success. Nobody will know if they'll be successful until a fleet goes into service. It's Catch 22.
You have to remember that Circular Quay and its ferry services evolved over many decades as a means of public transport, most of which started because people needed to get from the north shore to the city. There was no Harbour Bridge until 1932, and no Gladesville Bridge until about 1960. Sydney Ferries has now grown to an imposing size, serving places as far apart as Parramatta and Manly. Sydney people have to get across the harbour; Melbournians travel around the bay. . . big difference.
Valvegear
Yeah, it would be nice having that. Earlier in the forum, I suggested Docklands as the hub of ferries; however, I was told it would be too slow. Docklands does have many more things than Station Pier, but, yet again, ferries may not be a success.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra. Instead, extend and widen Station Pier with new commuter berths, a customs facility for international visitors, and an extensions of tram route 109 all the way down the pier.

The only way that ferries will ever be successful is if they are significantly faster than any other mode of transport. In Melbourne this means ferries would have to run point-to-point across the bay without any intermediate stops.
Ok then, thank you. I did not know that. They could make Station Pier like Sydney's Circular Quay. Ferries could also be successful if they stop in places with no other mode of transport or in areas with overcrowded transport. Ferries would never have intermediate stops due to stopping at wharfs is much harder than pulling up at a station/stop. In our case ferries could have 'stop' buttons if people want to get off, otherwise it would not stop unless someone wants to board.
Ferries would need to be completely express for their whole journey due to Melbourne's geographical layout.
railblogger
Unless they travel on the Yarra or Maribyrnong.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Just look at the utter failure of Paul Little's ill fated ferry service from Werribee South to Victoria Dock. It was obvious (even to me) that it could not succeed given the times and fares, if nothing else.
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra.
railblogger

Could you please provide more information about why the Yarra has low speed limits?
I am sure with some careful planning the speed limit could be increased e.g. a special "lane" for ferries only.


My proposal:

Replace Williamstown line (3 stations) with an express ferry.
The ferry travels between Hobsons Bay Yacht Club and Batman Park (opposite Crown Casino).
The distance is 9.3km. The ferry can go at average speed of 60km/h (google Incat High Speed Ferry), it would take 10 minutes.
This is faster than the train from North Williamstown, it takes 20 minutes.
Would anyone have passenger numbers for the Williamstown line? How many people use the 3 stations?

Removing the Williamstown rail line would free up rail capacity, allowing more rail services on other lines. Also the government could sell the land for $$$$. So it may almost pay for itself.

After the Williamstown ferry is a success, introduce a direct ferry service to Frankston. The distance is 46.5kms, the ferry journey time is 40 minutes (avg speed 70km/h). This is much quicker than the train service (63 minutes).
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra.

Could you please provide more information about why the Yarra has low speed limits?
I am sure with some careful planning the speed limit could be increased e.g. a special "lane" for ferries only.


My proposal:

Replace Williamstown line (3 stations) with an express ferry.
The ferry travels between Hobsons Bay Yacht Club and Batman Park (opposite Crown Casino).
The distance is 9.3km. The ferry can go at average speed of 60km/h (google Incat High Speed Ferry), it would take 10 minutes.
This is faster than the train from North Williamstown, it takes 20 minutes.
Would anyone have passenger numbers for the Williamstown line? How many people use the 3 stations?

Removing the Williamstown rail line would free up rail capacity, allowing more rail services on other lines. Also the government could sell the land for $$$$. So it may almost pay for itself.

After the Williamstown ferry is a success, introduce a direct ferry service to Frankston. The distance is 46.5kms, the ferry journey time is 40 minutes (avg speed 70km/h). This is much quicker than the train service (63 minutes).
tom9876543
Totally pie In the sky stuff here !

Yarra River speed limit 5 Knots (9.25 km/h) up stream of the Westgate Bridge and 10 Knots (18.5 km/h) down stream.

Parks Victoria won't budge on these speed limits because of the environmental damage of the boats swash on the river banks and harm to aquatic creatures.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yep, river limits will remain in place until all watercraft are actually hovercrafts.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

No ferries should terminate at Docklands due to the low speed limits of the Yarra.

Could you please provide more information about why the Yarra has low speed limits?
I am sure with some careful planning the speed limit could be increased e.g. a special "lane" for ferries only.


My proposal:

Replace Williamstown line (3 stations) with an express ferry.
The ferry travels between Hobsons Bay Yacht Club and Batman Park (opposite Crown Casino).
The distance is 9.3km. The ferry can go at average speed of 60km/h (google Incat High Speed Ferry), it would take 10 minutes.
This is faster than the train from North Williamstown, it takes 20 minutes.
Would anyone have passenger numbers for the Williamstown line? How many people use the 3 stations?

Removing the Williamstown rail line would free up rail capacity, allowing more rail services on other lines. Also the government could sell the land for $$$$. So it may almost pay for itself.

After the Williamstown ferry is a success, introduce a direct ferry service to Frankston. The distance is 46.5kms, the ferry journey time is 40 minutes (avg speed 70km/h). This is much quicker than the train service (63 minutes).
Totally pie In the sky stuff here !

Yarra River speed limit 5 Knots (9.25 km/h) up stream of the Westgate Bridge and 10 Knots (18.5 km/h) down stream.

Parks Victoria won't budge on these speed limits because of the environmental damage of the boats swash on the river banks and harm to aquatic craters.
Nightfire

It may be "pie in th sky" but for some areas in the Melbourne Metro area much more "creative thinking" is required. For instance have you ever tried to get down to the Rye Sorrento area by public transport, it almost may as well be on mars, 3 hours on trains and buses to what is in effect a Melbourne suburb is ridiculos. The cost of a rail line is always going to be almost prohibitive. A ferry service though would halve the time no problems. A problem may be though allthough Port Phillip bay is not deep, its a wide expanse of water and one  CAN get decent sized waves there, something most of the Sydney ferries do not experience. A few stops should not be to much of an issue, the Cremorne point Mosman Bay ferry has 4 stops, each stop is only be less than 1 minute. I was VERY impressed with the crews handling of the ferry, the captain could stop the ferry on a 5 cent piece. it was great to watch them in action. Mind you, its in very protected waters.

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No reason why a ferry and train service couldn't co-exist but I think the problem in Melbourne is that aside from the station pier and maybe docklands there doesn't appear to be a viable area for a wharf. Services to/from Williamstown and Werribee south would be a starter and Sorrento already has a ferry to Queenscliff and so I see no reason why a service to Sorrento couldn't be done as a tourist attraction.

Woodford I think you should reconsider the wave sizes that occur in Sydney harbour. You may have been lucky on your day on the harbour but trust me when I say the harbour can get some decent sized waves going. Just type "manly ferry heavy seas" into youtube for applicable footage.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

No reason why a ferry and train service couldn't co-exist but I think the problem in Melbourne is that aside from the station pier and maybe docklands there doesn't appear to be a viable area for a wharf. Services to/from Williamstown and Werribee south would be a starter and Sorrento already has a ferry to Queenscliff and so I see no reason why a service to Sorrento couldn't be done as a tourist attraction.

Woodford I think you should reconsider the wave sizes that occur in Sydney harbour. You may have been lucky on your day on the harbour but trust me when I say the harbour can get some decent sized waves going. Just type "manly ferry heavy seas" into youtube for applicable footage.
"simstrain"


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I got a bite............................

I wondered if I said nothing about Manly if some one would say something.

I am well aware of the problem  caused by the run across mouth of the Port Jackson, the unprotected section is only about 2 kilmotres. From memory the rest of all the ferry routes are in sheltered waters. I have been on the Manly ferry during a very strong east wind, the trip was quite lively to say the least. The trip down to Sorrento/rye area is entirely across open water and I remember one storm when waves were coming over the end of Rye pier.

I may mention only the possibity does exist and should be considered in the overall package of Melbourne public transport, doubtlessly suitable infrastructure can be built at the fraction of the cost of a railway.

Rememeber we  are only talking about vessels carrying only people and  bikes with a capacity of 400 to 500 people say around 200 or so tons and a fairly shallow draft, such vessels can be docked at almost any small per.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Post script, I will point out that the area from Rye to Port Sea, an area about 11 by 1.5 kilomteres, is now entirely covered in houses apart from a number of golf courses and a reasonable buffer between Bass strait and the people.

woodford
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Services to/from Williamstown and Werribee south would be a starter
"simstrain"
Read YM-Mundrabilla above; a ferry from Werribee South has just come a complete thud.
The population is in Werribee and Hoppers Crossing, which are both quite a distance from Wyndham Harbour - drive and park? Rail stations are miles closer and the train goes into the CBD. A Williamstown ferry terminus requires a change to other transport if the CBD is your destination.
The logistics just don't add up.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

My proposal:

Stage 1
Start a Williamstown Ferry Line. Remove the Train line. Ferry stops: Point Gellibrand Coastal Heritage Park, Hobsons Bay Yacht Club, Scienceworks, Fisherman's Bend and Docklands.

Stage 2
City Line. Stops at South Wharf DFO, MCEC, Crown, Southbank, Flinders Street, Alexandra Gardens, Birrarung Marr, Rod Laver Arena, AAMI Park and Goschs Paddock.

Stage 3
Maribyrnong Line. Travels up the Maribyrnong River to Raleigh Rd.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
My proposal:

Stage 1
Start a Williamstown Ferry Line. Remove the Train line. Ferry stops: Point Gellibrand Coastal Heritage Park, Hobsons Bay Yacht Club, Scienceworks, Fisherman's Bend and Docklands.

Mr Gus Meister
Williamstown already has a ferry from Gem Pier Williamstown to Southgate.

http://www.williamstownferries.com.au/

Obviously un competeable with the train and the roads due to travel time.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Services to/from Williamstown and Werribee south would be a starter
Read YM-Mundrabilla above; a ferry from Werribee South has just come a complete thud.
The population is in Werribee and Hoppers Crossing, which are both quite a distance from Wyndham Harbour - drive and park? Rail stations are miles closer and the train goes into the CBD. A Williamstown ferry terminus requires a change to other transport if the CBD is your destination.
The logistics just don't add up.
Valvegear

I wasn't for it. I was stating that those 2 services would probably be the only routes. I wonder what would happen if you included werribee south and williamstown on a multiple stop ferry that went to geelong?
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
While I am totally unfamiliar with Port Phillip Bay (last seen from a pebble beach at St Kilda in 1955) I see 2 main problems with any ferry service with one being they are very Point to Point services and because of the size of Port Phillip Bay, what affect would the weather have on their services?
Although the ferry rarely suffers from 'Grid Lock' as both Road and Rail do during Peak times and unforseen incidents (accidents) can a ferry match the capacity of what a Bus/Train route can handle?
The only reason Sydney has ferries is because of the roads that service the areas are not much better in capacity than when they were first created over a 150 years ago and to build better roads means you would have to demolish residences in a heavily populated area at an immense cost today.
For some years now a Ferry service proposal has been 'Run up the Flagpole' with much excitement for a service to run from Gosford or Woy Woy into Sydney's Circular Quay.
One group actually got as far as buying an immense hand carved Board Room Table before their bubble burst !!! (Ferry sank???)

+
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I wasn't for it. I was stating that those 2 services would probably be the only routes. I wonder what would happen if you included werribee south and williamstown on a multiple stop ferry that went to geelong?
"simstrain"
My previous point stands. It is a complete waste of time and effort going to Werribee South. The passengers just aren't there. Have a look at Google Earth and see how far it is from Wyndham Harbour to any reasonably  populated area.
Go Melbourne-Geelong or Melbourne-Frankston by all means, but remember that you cannot make any speed up the Yarra to the CBD. Even then, you're not really at the edge of the CBD compared with Circular Quay. Such trips would be nice for those with time to spare, but they won't do as business commuter services.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I wasn't for it. I was stating that those 2 services would probably be the only routes. I wonder what would happen if you included werribee south and williamstown on a multiple stop ferry that went to geelong?
My previous point stands. It is a complete waste of time and effort going to Werribee South. The passengers just aren't there. Have a look at Google Earth and see how far it is from Wyndham Harbour to any reasonably  populated area.
Go Melbourne-Geelong or Melbourne-Frankston by all means
Valvegear
I wouldn't be doing either for the same reason - the train would be faster and much more convenient than the ferry. However, the story would be different for services running to Portarlington or Sorrento.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

My proposal:

Stage 1
Start a Williamstown Ferry Line. Remove the Train line. Ferry stops: Point Gellibrand Coastal Heritage Park, Hobsons Bay Yacht Club, Scienceworks, Fisherman's Bend and Docklands.
Williamstown already has a ferry from Gem Pier Williamstown to Southgate.

http://www.williamstownferries.com.au/

Obviously un competeable with the train and the roads due to travel time.
Nightfire
Oh...
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

My proposal:

Stage 1
Start a Williamstown Ferry Line. Remove the Train line. Ferry stops: Point Gellibrand Coastal Heritage Park, Hobsons Bay Yacht Club, Scienceworks, Fisherman's Bend and Docklands.
Williamstown already has a ferry from Gem Pier Williamstown to Southgate.

http://www.williamstownferries.com.au/

Obviously un competeable with the train and the roads due to travel time.
Oh...
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

Yarra River speed limit 5 Knots (9.25 km/h) up stream of the Westgate Bridge and 10 Knots (18.5 km/h) down stream.

Parks Victoria won't budge on these speed limits because of the environmental damage of the boats swash on the river banks and harm to aquatic craters.
Nightfire

That is the most stupidest thing I have heard in at least 20 years.

I fully support protecting native Australia flora and fauna. National Parks protect flora and fauna as they were before westerners arrived. Governments need to maintain National Parks.

Now lets state the obvious, the Yarra is not a pristine example of Australian nature.
If you look at an early map of Melbourne from the 1800s, you can see the Yarra river actually took a more northern route, it was diverted to its current path sometime around 1900-1940.
So any "environmental damage" claim is stupid beyond belief.

To resolve "damage to river banks", build walls on the banks of the Yarra (as has been done next to Flinders St station / Southbank). The only google search results about "aquatic craters" appears to be a National Park in the USA. I don't have enough knowledge but "aquatic craters" sounds stupid to me.

This ridiculous approach to managing the Yarra River (down stream from CBD) is atrocious and blocks innovation.

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