50 level crossings to be removed

 
  steve195 Train Controller

The Age reporting today that once again politics has trumped expert engineering opinion when it comes to infrastructure, with the Frankston line to be lowered into cuttings at Bonbeach and Edithvale.

Heading south of Bonbeach, out of the cutting and then over the Patterson river and Station street is going to be a very long drag.

Seaford road will be done similarly to Bayswater, though reversed. i.e. the road will be slightly lowered and the railway will be lifted onto a small embankment and short bridge.

Far out.  I know the sandbelt seats are super marginal and all, but... geez.  This a terrible idea.

Bonbeach station will basically be a bathtub with a base below sea level.  Edithvale might be a metre or two above at rail level.  There's a good chance any brownie points they get from appeasing some loud nimbys on the Nepean will be negated by having stations that might drag on for ages in construction and then be far more expensive to continuously pump out.

But as the noskyrail nimbys were heavily astroturfed by the Vic Libs and mostly weren't going to vote Labor either way, I doubt it will even change enough votes to have been worth the extra expense...
Adogs
The Bonbeach and Edithvale concept designs look bloody awful. Concrete, concrete and asphalt everywhere..

Seaford looks like a pretty nice design though.

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  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
The Bonbeach and Edithvale concept designs look bloody awful. Concrete, concrete and asphalt everywhere..
steve195
Well that's the other way to do it, so hideous that the locals might actually prefer a bridge...
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

The NoSkyRail and Liberal Party people are saying that the cost difference between SkyRail and trenching is 7% but I suspect it is closer to 30%. As most of you are aware the line from Mordialloc  to Seaford is built on a sandbar and in most places is higher than the adjacent buildings. I have spoken to a number of local MPs emphasising that SkyRail between Mordialloc and Seaford would be cheaper and allow for more flexibility to rearrange the roads and other facilities. Additionally the SkyRail could be provided with sound barriers to reduce train noise.

However the Liberal members are all for full trenching and the feedback on the LXRA website is extremely hostile . Even when the engineers carefully explain why a SkyRail is needed they are abused and shouted down by so called engineering experts who appear not to have read what was said.

In my view the Government should just say that extreme community opposition to a sensible and economic
SkyRail which is based on sound engineering advice will now be abandoned and the existing infrastructure from Aspendale to Frankston shall remain. The Government can then say we will instead address other level crossing removal projects on other lines and the Frankston line will be dealt with at an undefined future time. ( this would be a repeat of what Premier Bolte said in the 1960s for a similar reason on the Frankston line )

The NoSkyRail NIMBYs can have their victory and see what happens after the next election. Either Mathew Guy will have to justify the enormous additional expense or quietly forget about the Frankston Line.

Best wishes and regards to all, Radioman.
  ElliotProvis Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Victoria
As much as this would give personal satisfaction to people (and I do understand it), the State government is in the business of getting into government, and staying in government. For the added expense, they may as well do it, and have higher chances of state electoral success, as opposed to losing these valuable seats to the totally incompetent fuddy-duddy party who was in power last time and did nigh on nothing to actually improve public transport.

However, I do agree that it's totally ridiculous that these level crossings will be removed by such over the top measures. I hate to think what the longterm environmental impacts will be... Let alone the longterm urban planning social outcomes...
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

better still, leave the railway crossings as is, and let all the whingers moan and groan when nothing gets done, that will fix the whole lot of fools up. They can keep there congested roads.  Cheaper for the taxpayers.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
better still, leave the railway crossings as is, and let all the whingers moan and groan when nothing gets done, that will fix the whole lot of fools up. They can keep there congested roads.  Cheaper for the taxpayers.
trainbrain
Completely agree. Spend the money saved on another project ie speeding up the track duplications on the Ballarat line etc
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
This quiet article over the weekend strongly hints at "hey, we know you don't want the rail-over option...but you'll likely get it"

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/level-crossings-boss-hints-that-sky-rail-might-be-the-answer-on-frankston-line-20161104-gsignq.html
Given the geology and hydrology of the area, I doubt they have any other option.

Incidentally, pilot drivers were working V/line trains between Watergardens and Sunshine (and vice versa) last week.  It was a big effort to get the job done given the that a serious amount of igneous rock had to be broken up and removed.
Many Melbourne buildings , Bridges and roads were built with Bluestone from the west .
Crossover
           Interesting to note that Sunbury / Bendigo line trains will be suspended from Wed March 8th through to the 13th .This is quoted to allow major track underpinning and drainage works to occur as well as understandable finishing touches to platform canopies at St Albans and Ginifer that are close to the overhead .
            Trains have been running through for some months now , it seems that an unexpected snag may have been "Hit "so to speak asn drainage etc was heavily addressed during the previous shutdown last year .
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The full drainage system was never installed last year, hence the shut down now. The works at St Albans were very much rushed to get the station open in time, and it ended up being open a few days late.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Just gonna state how the level crossing removal program is going
10 level crossings removed (all rail under road)
9 level crossings on Dandenong line in progress (rail over road)
-Pillars are getting placed
-Crane is getting built up
-Completion in 2018
2 Level crossings in early construction stage at Melton highway and thompson road (road over rail) finish in 2018
3 Level crossings planning Kokoroit creek road, Abbot road, and Rosanna (rail over road) finish in 2019
-Includes partial duplication at Altona
2 level crossings planning Camp road, Grange road Alphinton (rail under road) finish in 2019
2 level crossings at Skye road and Seaford road (rail over road) finish 2019
3 level crossings at Essendon, Eal race road and Station street (under consultation) finish in 2019
2 level crossings at Charman road and Balcome road (rail under road) starts in 2018
2 level crossings at Eithdale and Bonbeach (rail under road, but EES may overrule this) starts in 2019
15 level crossings under planning/consultation (under investigation)

So in other terms:16 rail under road, 2 road over rail, 14 rail over road, 18 still unsure. What a nice balance of trench and elevated rail.

Note: Park road is also getting removed but not part of the original 50 (rail under road) completed in 2019
Also Duplication of Heildeburg is a seperate project
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
better still, leave the railway crossings as is, and let all the whingers moan and groan when nothing gets done, that will fix the whole lot of fools up. They can keep there congested roads.  Cheaper for the taxpayers.
trainbrain
There is ages and ages on information on how Suburbia and the widening of roads is slowly screwing over cities.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Just gonna state how the level crossing removal program is going
10 level crossings removed (all rail under road)
9 level crossings on Dandenong line in progress (rail over road)
-Pillars are getting placed
-Crane is getting built up
-Completion in 2018
2 Level crossings in early construction stage at Melton highway and thompson road (road over rail) finish in 2018
3 Level crossings planning Kokoroit creek road, Abbot road, and Rosanna (rail over road) finish in 2019
-Includes partial duplication at Altona
2 level crossings planning Camp road, Grange road Alphinton (rail under road) finish in 2019
2 level crossings at Skye road and Seaford road (rail over road) finish 2019
3 level crossings at Essendon, Eal race road and Station street (under consultation) finish in 2019
2 level crossings at Charman road and Balcome road (rail under road) starts in 2018
2 level crossings at Eithdale and Bonbeach (rail under road, but EES may overrule this) starts in 2019
15 level crossings under planning/consultation (under investigation)

So in other terms:16 rail under road, 2 road over rail, 14 rail over road, 18 still unsure. What a nice balance of trench and elevated rail.

Note: Park road is also getting removed but not part of the original 50 (rail under road) completed in 2019
Also Duplication of Heildeburg is a seperate project
James974
According to this and by my arithmetic (which could be wrong), it means that at the end of 2018 (the time of the next State  election), the status will be:

21 actually finished
6 started, to finish in 2019
2 started in 2018, to finish ??
2 to start in 2019
15 in planning, no start date.

Open to correction if these figures are incorrect.

If there is a change of Government in November 2018, what will happen to those which are at that time:
(a) started, in progress,
(b) not yet started but slated to start in 2019 or later,
(c) planning completed, but no start date set, and
(d) planning incomplete or not yet started.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

According to this and by my arithmetic (which could be wrong), it means that at the end of 2018 (the time of the next State  election), the status will be:

21 actually finished
6 started, to finish in 2019
2 started in 2018, to finish ??
2 to start in 2019
15 in planning, no start date.

Open to correction if these figures are incorrect.

If there is a change of Government in November 2018, what will happen to those which are at that time:
(a) started, in progress,
(b) not yet started but slated to start in 2019 or later,
(c) planning completed, but no start date set, and
(d) planning incomplete or not yet started.
Lad_Porter
Good question, if a government changes to Liberals in 2018 here's what's likely to happen
(a) The ones that have started will probably continue, but maybe have some delays (South Morang rail, RRL are some examples)
(b-d) The rest would be stalled indefinitely and reinvestigated (Melbourne metro project, thank god thats well underway now)
(e) They put up their own plan and probably remove crossings that can only be done rail under and so it suits them in the areas that give them votes
(f) Finally all the savings they make by cutting the LXRA would go direct to their EWL pet project

Let's just hope the current government stays and delivers the rest of the level crossings without any problems. Otherwise its a political mess like what happen in 2010 "Its part of the plan".
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Well...  2018 could be very interesting for a few reasons.

Firstly, I doubt that the Libs will claw many seats back.  Federally, the only place they swung towards them in Victora was Anna Burke's old seat, and even in the booths directly near Skyrail there wasn't actually much of an effect.  Understood that the issues at a Federal Election are different, but for all the $ the Libs spent on drumming up CFA noise, those seats actually swung MORE towards the ALP than the national average.

But, more importantly, besides the couple of lower house seats that have already gone Green, at the last state election there were another 4-5 inner-Melbourne seats that were a two horse race between the Greens and the ALP.  

If the swing against the two major parties continues, there's a real chance the Victorian ALP will only be governing by consent of the Greens, which could change all sorts of things.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The NoSkyRail and Liberal Party people are saying that the cost difference between SkyRail and trenching is 7% but I suspect it is closer to 30%. As most of you are aware the line from Mordialloc  to Seaford is built on a sandbar and in most places is higher than the adjacent buildings. I have spoken to a number of local MPs emphasising that SkyRail between Mordialloc and Seaford would be cheaper and allow for more flexibility to rearrange the roads and other facilities. Additionally the SkyRail could be provided with sound barriers to reduce train noise.
Radioman
What makes them think the cost difference between a viaduct and a cutting is any less than it really is? What is higher in most places than adjacent buildings?

However the Liberal members are all for full trenching and the feedback on the LXRA website is extremely hostile . Even when the engineers carefully explain why a SkyRail is needed they are abused and shouted down by so called engineering experts who appear not to have read what was said.
Radioman
For example, they claim that water tables are no excuse. There are many reasons why a viaduct all the way along the beachfront is the best way. The railway is near sea level and crosses some creeks and the Patterson river, all at sea level. The only way to remove all those level crossings while keeping the railway as level as possible is for it to go over.

In my view the Government should just say that extreme community opposition to a sensible and economic
SkyRail which is based on sound engineering advice will now be abandoned and the existing infrastructure from Aspendale to Frankston shall remain. The Government can then say we will instead address other level crossing removal projects on other lines and the Frankston line will be dealt with at an undefined future time. ( this would be a repeat of what Premier Bolte said in the 1960s for a similar reason on the Frankston line )
Radioman
I don't understand the first sentence. As for the rest, I'm not sure what to say.

The NoSkyRail NIMBYs can have their victory and see what happens after the next election. Either Mathew Guy will have to justify the enormous additional expense or quietly forget about the Frankston Line.
Radioman
They only way from them to have their victory is to not remove the level crossings. Crossings that probably should have been grade separated long ago instead of the gates on them replaced by boom barriers.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Dear Myrtone and others ,

As you have indicated in your comments above the geology of the area beyond Mordialloc is a real problem, especially from Chelsea to Kananook . It appears that building viaducts these days is a lot cheaper than it once was and building an embankment on top of the exiting sandbar could be problematic .

In an ideal world trenching the whole line would be a good idea, but in this instance it is just not viable. There was a letter in one of the local papers by a water engineer who pointed out that a lot of water flows underground towards the beach and that the hammering of passing trains has the effect of causing the water to rise .( You can try this out for yourself on the beach by stamping your feet on sand near the water
, it causes the water to rise . This was also the reason for an ancient city on the Nile to collapse into the Nile . )

Around the section between Bonbeach and Seaford , in winter after rain there is a lot of water lying adjacent to the tracks which only seems to disappear with the onset of Spring , so underlying water is a major problem on this corridor.

The other obvious concern is will the trenching cause damage to adjacent properties ? When the Arts Centre was built the excavation work caused serious structural damage to the  adjacent YMCA Building which caused the Government to aquire and shore up the building whilst construction continued .

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
As you have indicated in your comments above the geology of the area beyond Mordialloc is a real problem, especially from Chelsea to Kananook . It appears that building viaducts these days is a lot cheaper than it once was and building an embankment on top of the exiting sandbar could be problematic.
Radioman
But a viaduct would free up space under it.

In an ideal world trenching the whole line would be a good idea, but in this instance it is just not viable. There was a letter in one of the local papers by a water engineer who pointed out that a lot of water flows underground towards the beach and that the hammering of passing trains has the effect of causing the water to rise .( You can try this out for yourself on the beach by stamping your feet on sand near the water
, it causes the water to rise . This was also the reason for an ancient city on the Nile to collapse into the Nile . )
Radioman
Not even theoretically could the whole bayside section be trenched. For example, continuing the trench through the rivers and creeks the lines crosses can't be done even theoretically.

Around the section between Bonbeach and Seaford , in winter after rain there is a lot of water lying adjacent to the tracks which only seems to disappear with the onset of Spring , so underlying water is a major problem on this corridor.
Radioman
And a viaduct would keep the railway high above this water.

The other obvious concern is will the trenching cause damage to adjacent properties ? When the Arts Centre was built the excavation work caused serious structural damage to the  adjacent YMCA Building which caused the Government to aquire and shore up the building whilst construction continued .
Radioman
Do you mean the Southbank Arts Centre?

Elevated rail, or a hybrid of raising the railway and lowering the roads crossing it is the only sensible way.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

As you have indicated in your comments above the geology of the area beyond Mordialloc is a real problem, especially from Chelsea to Kananook . It appears that building viaducts these days is a lot cheaper than it once was and building an embankment on top of the exiting sandbar could be problematic.
But a viaduct would free up space under it.

In an ideal world trenching the whole line would be a good idea, but in this instance it is just not viable. There was a letter in one of the local papers by a water engineer who pointed out that a lot of water flows underground towards the beach and that the hammering of passing trains has the effect of causing the water to rise .( You can try this out for yourself on the beach by stamping your feet on sand near the water
, it causes the water to rise . This was also the reason for an ancient city on the Nile to collapse into the Nile . )
Not even theoretically could the whole bayside section be trenched. For example, continuing the trench through the rivers and creeks the lines crosses can't be done even theoretically.

Around the section between Bonbeach and Seaford , in winter after rain there is a lot of water lying adjacent to the tracks which only seems to disappear with the onset of Spring , so underlying water is a major problem on this corridor.
And a viaduct would keep the railway high above this water.


Elevated rail, or a hybrid of raising the railway and lowering the roads crossing it is the only sensible way.
Myrtone
I agree with Myrtone, Elevated rail was the sensible option for anywhere past Mordialloc. Near the beach and wetlands, this trenching should of been investigated early with an EES and then ruled out. What if they have to do this EES and says they can't trench because of severe environmental impacts, they waste all the resources planning a rail under road solution and then have to replan for an elevated rail option. This is just a political move to make the Franskton seats happy, they're very marginal at the moment. Waste of taxpayers money on a solution that is near impossible by engineering standards, and be stopped if a EES proposal happens.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Do you mean the Southbank Arts Centre?
Myrtone

I'd guess he means the Frankston Arts Centre.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I don't suppose the Frankston Art Centre is very well known. But the one at Southbank is. I'll go on more about this in another thread.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

More like 51 level crossings to be removed, looks like the government didn't see Park road was right next to Charman Road when they made the list.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland




I agree with Myrtone, Elevated rail was the sensible option for anywhere past Mordialloc. Near the beach and wetlands, this trenching should of been investigated early with an EES and then ruled out. What if they have to do this EES and says they can't trench because of severe environmental impacts, they waste all the resources planning a rail under road solution and then have to replan for an elevated rail option. This is just a political move to make the Franskton seats happy, they're very marginal at the moment. Waste of taxpayers money on a solution that is near impossible by engineering standards, and be stopped if a EES proposal happens.
James974
Some how I think the Government will do everything they can to delay any commencement of works on the grade separations they have promised at Edithvale and Bonbeach,In the hope they don't have to do them at all.

The No Skyrail Frankston line group have picked up of the pushing back of the time frame for works to begin, now In 2019 (After the next election)
  thekingoffoxes Chief Train Controller

Regarding the Cheltenham grade separation it appears they are keeping the third track, and LINK states that the third track will be connected to the main line at both ends of the platform.
I imagine in this case the center track (Platform 2) will become the turn-back platform because currently a DOWN train path to Platform 1 fouls the UP line. Is that generally how they operate in these situations?

On another note doesn't the Frankston line south of Cheltenham get more than enough traffic to make a turn-back pointless?


As extracted from - https://your.levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/cheltenham?page=2&tool=qanda

As part of long-term plans for the whole rail network, reconfigurations are required to enable more frequent services on the Frankston line. Activating the existing third track will help us maintain a greater level of service as our population increases. At the new station, Platform One will become a through platform to allow turnback services at the station and a higher frequency service on the Frankston line. We're following up with Public Transport Victoria regarding your question about express services and will be back in touch soon.
LXRA
  712M Chief Commissioner

Regarding the Cheltenham grade separation it appears they are keeping the third track, and LINK states that the third track will be connected to the main line at both ends of the platform.
I imagine in this case the center track (Platform 2) will become the turn-back platform because currently a DOWN train path to Platform 1 fouls the UP line. Is that generally how they operate in these situations?

On another note doesn't the Frankston line south of Cheltenham get more than enough traffic to make a turn-back pointless?


As extracted from - https://your.levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/cheltenham?page=2&tool=qanda

As part of long-term plans for the whole rail network, reconfigurations are required to enable more frequent services on the Frankston line. Activating the existing third track will help us maintain a greater level of service as our population increases. At the new station, Platform One will become a through platform to allow turnback services at the station and a higher frequency service on the Frankston line. We're following up with Public Transport Victoria regarding your question about express services and will be back in touch soon.
thekingoffoxes
Peak hour all stations trains would use the centre platform at Cheltenham to terminate and return to Melbourne, similar to how the Blackburn trains work on the Belgrave/Lilydale line. Presently these trains shunt via the sidings at Mordialloc or continue all the way to Frankston, carrying mostly fresh air as most pax travelling to down of Cheltenham use the express trains.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Regarding the Cheltenham grade separation it appears they are keeping the third track, and LINK states that the third track will be connected to the main line at both ends of the platform.
I imagine in this case the center track (Platform 2) will become the turn-back platform because currently a DOWN train path to Platform 1 fouls the UP line. Is that generally how they operate in these situations?

On another note doesn't the Frankston line south of Cheltenham get more than enough traffic to make a turn-back pointless?


As extracted from - https://your.levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/cheltenham?page=2&tool=qanda

As part of long-term plans for the whole rail network, reconfigurations are required to enable more frequent services on the Frankston line. Activating the existing third track will help us maintain a greater level of service as our population increases. At the new station, Platform One will become a through platform to allow turnback services at the station and a higher frequency service on the Frankston line. We're following up with Public Transport Victoria regarding your question about express services and will be back in touch soon.
thekingoffoxes
Where Metro are currently trying to remove as much redundancy as possible, can we celebrate the places where it is kept? Even if it's not used on a day to day basis, in an emergency being able to turn trains back at as many places as possible is a good thing.
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Dear Myrtone and others,

My apologies , yes I was referring to the Melbourne Arts Centre on the Yarra River . I also agrees with you re SkyRail as I indicated in an earlier post that in my personal opinion a SkyRail should really run from Mordailloc thru to Kananook.

As 712M indicated Cheltenham will end up being configured similar to Blackburn 3 platform configuration. Interesting that Blackburn was originally going to be a temporary arrangement but due to an unexpected high use during the sinking of Box Hill it was decided to make Blackburn and not Box Hill the SAS terminus.

The LXRA quote above seems to imply that a lot more SAS to Cheltenham / CTM trains will be the future . From my observations fewer people seem to get of at Mordialloc when you are on a limited express to CTM , but that may be a misleading observation due to all trains stopping at Mordialloc.

As most readers here would be aware the original intention was to have a third line to Mordialloc and a number of works were dome in the 1960s and 1970s to accomodate this . However it currently appears that the option of a Third Line from Moorabin to Mordialloc is not currently being provided for which is unfortunate to say the least.

Whilst discussing Mordialloc a high level Mordialloc station could allow for two island platforms thereby giving maximum flexibility in both directions.

Best wishes and regards to all, Radioman

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