Mixed view of Ballarat rail precinct

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 30 Apr 2017 18:27
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Reading through the article it appears the idea is to hand the public land to the developer allowing the government to wipe their hands of the project?

A similiar approach was taken at Gippsland with a less than desirable outcome IIRC.

Mixed view of Ballarat rail precinct

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Reading through the article it appears the idea is to hand the public land to the developer allowing the government to wipe their hands of the project?

A similiar approach was taken at Gippsland with a less than desirable outcome IIRC.

Mixed view of Ballarat rail precinct
bevans

Unfortunately...leaving aside the commercial implications which have little bearing on the provision of good PT, the worst thing about the planned precinct is instead of V/Line buses connecting with trains at the end of Platform 1 which at this time is an excellent transport interchange, the buses are planned to depart from the new precinct which means crossing the double railway line and a hefty walk to the new bus area.

This has implications particularly for elderly and people with disabilities.

Mike.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
When is vixtrack going to focus on building the new intermodal terminal in Ballarat ?
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Unfortunately...leaving aside the commercial implications which have little bearing on the provision of good PT, the worst thing about the planned precinct is instead of V/Line buses connecting with trains at the end of Platform 1 which at this time is an excellent transport interchange, the buses are planned to depart from the new precinct which means crossing the double railway line and a hefty walk to the new bus area.

This has implications particularly for elderly and people with disabilities.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Is there a reason why the bus interchange could not remain adjacent to platform 1?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Is there a reason why the bus interchange could not remain adjacent to platform 1?
"Lad_Porter"
Would that make any more money for the developers?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Unfortunately...leaving aside the commercial implications which have little bearing on the provision of good PT, the worst thing about the planned precinct is instead of V/Line buses connecting with trains at the end of Platform 1 which at this time is an excellent transport interchange, the buses are planned to depart from the new precinct which means crossing the double railway line and a hefty walk to the new bus area.

This has implications particularly for elderly and people with disabilities.

Mike.
Is there a reason why the bus interchange could not remain adjacent to platform 1?
Lad_Porter

Indeed
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Unfortunately...leaving aside the commercial implications which have little bearing on the provision of good PT, the worst thing about the planned precinct is instead of V/Line buses connecting with trains at the end of Platform 1 which at this time is an excellent transport interchange, the buses are planned to depart from the new precinct which means crossing the double railway line and a hefty walk to the new bus area.

This has implications particularly for elderly and people with disabilities.

Mike.
Is there a reason why the bus interchange could not remain adjacent to platform 1?
Lad_Porter

The plan is to terminate the Ballarat town bus service in the precinct instead of out the front of the station in Lydiard Street as they currently do. Sadly there's not enough room for all the buses due to the commercial requirements of the private interests in developing the precinct.

Unfortunately something had to give...

Mike.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Unfortunately...leaving aside the commercial implications which have little bearing on the provision of good PT, the worst thing about the planned precinct is instead of V/Line buses connecting with trains at the end of Platform 1 which at this time is an excellent transport interchange, the buses are planned to depart from the new precinct which means crossing the double railway line and a hefty walk to the new bus area.

This has implications particularly for elderly and people with disabilities.

Mike.
Is there a reason why the bus interchange could not remain adjacent to platform 1?

The plan is to terminate the Ballarat town bus service in the precinct instead of out the front of the station in Lydiard Street as they currently do. Sadly there's not enough room for all the buses due to the commercial requirements of the private interests in developing the precinct.

Unfortunately something had to give...

Mike.
The Vinelander
So there will be no direct connection between the trains and buses. Whichever way one looks at it, the development totally ignores people like me who can't negotiate distances by foot (ie the disabled, accessibility impaired). Not happy, Jan Sad
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I empathise with your concerns which were raised with the powers that be regards the precinct development. I think it's an appalling decision, probably made by lard ar$ses who don't use PT.

Mike.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I empathise with your concerns which were raised with the powers that be regards the precinct development. I think it's an appalling decision, probably made by lard ar$ses who don't use PT.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Interesting to note that the same sort of thing happened at Geelong station in regard to recent redevelopments. A pedestrian overpass with lifts was recently built, but where did it get built? Right at the extreme down end of the station, the furtherest most position away from the taxi rank and the carpark at the up end of the station where the majority of disabled people arrive. So to get to platform 2/3 means a rather long walk from the up end to the overpass at the other end.

This and what is proposed at Ballarat is ideas thought up by ignorant people sitting behind desks in transport HQ who do not think outside the square and don't think of all the what ifs and the consequences of their ideas for the accessibility challenged.
  Tony M. Locomotive Fireman

I empathise with your concerns which were raised with the powers that be regards the precinct development. I think it's an appalling decision, probably made by lard ar$ses who don't use PT.

Mike.
Interesting to note that the same sort of thing happened at Geelong station in regard to recent redevelopments. A pedestrian overpass with lifts was recently built, but where did it get built? Right at the extreme down end of the station, the furtherest most position away from the taxi rank and the carpark at the up end of the station where the majority of disabled people arrive. So to get to platform 2/3 means a rather long walk from the up end to the overpass at the other end.

This and what is proposed at Ballarat is ideas thought up by ignorant people sitting behind desks in transport HQ who do not think outside the square and don't think of all the what ifs and the consequences of their ideas for the accessibility challenged.
xxxxlbear
To be fair, the reason why the Geelong pedestrian overpass was built right at the end of the platform is because the station is heritage listed and there was / is no room for a second overpass (including lifts) under the roof that covers most of the platforms.

When the Geelong station overpass was first planned the taxi rank was still directly out the front of Geelong station - not ideal, but nowhere near as far away. Reportedly when the rank was moved to the far end during construction the bus line operators (who never liked sharing "their" end of the station with taxis) made sure it didn't return when construction was done.
  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

I have not read the entire document but how does this proposed development actually enrich the passenger experience or is it just another case of passengers last and developers first?
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

all too often PT initiatives are all talk and little effective action . The new bus shelters with rolling ads in Melbourne are designed for ads, not comfort or shelter , though I will readily concede that they are better than their predecessors where on a rainy day even standing on the very narrow seat still ensured you got wet. In Melbourne's case it has only been the last 15 years that all bus stops actually had a route number, destination and a timetable , before that they had nothing, and only a small minority had a shelter, or even a concrete pad to stand on. Buses, even now, rarely have a time table to give to enquiring passengers. Most bus drivers had no knowledge, nor paperwork to refer to, regarding other adjacent or connecting services. A lot of Melbourne buses first run is 0700 and many still finish at 2000 . Frequency is typically hourly, though the 900 series are both more frequent and generally stick to arterials.

Ideally, interchanges should be covered, informative and adjacent to railway station where applicable. Re Ballarat , the V/Line connecting services should be able to remain on the station forecourt, though the city buses are a problem due to the lack of space. You could stagger the connections, but that defeats the purpose of the interchange . Some arrangement to allow all city bus services to be sheltered parallel to Platform 2 might be possible . A Victorian era style shelter may achieve that, even so, accessibility for the less mobile would still be a problem , so some less than ideal trade off will regrettably still be needed.

Re Geelong , I am not surprised at the attitude of the bus companies re Taxis at all. The current Taxi stand is at the Melbourne end and totally uncovered ! Geelong highlights the interchange problem facing Ballarat. An increased frequency and additional routes requires more space , and space adjacent to railway stations is usually at a premium . One solution is relying on developers to provide sheltered bus interchange for development rights. But on the basis of Box Hill, Southland, Kariingal ( Frankston South ) they are notorious for exceedingly bad design, poor signage, diesel fume laden and wind blown ( YES they can and do achieve both at the same time ) and of course require along walk and or an obstacle course to access. Yet Bribane's underground city bus interchange is an example of good design , but blithely ignore by everyone else.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

This and what is proposed at Ballarat is ideas thought up by ignorant people sitting behind desks in transport HQ who do not think outside the square and don't think of all the what ifs and the consequences of their ideas for the accessibility challenged.
xxxxlbear
I would suggest that the disciplined implementation of existing best practice is a better idea than well-intentioned thinking outside the box.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/5463293/works-on-5-million-bus-bay-imminent-as-final-plans-revealed/

@TheVinelander is this a much revised design to the one that you were bemoaning last year?

It appears at first glance to be quite well integrated, looks a bit line the one at Bendigo in terms of proximity

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/5463293/works-on-5-million-bus-bay-imminent-as-final-plans-revealed/

@TheVinelander is this a much revised design to the one that you were bemoaning last year?

It appears at first glance to be quite well integrated, looks a bit line the one at Bendigo in terms of proximity

BG
BrentonGolding

The local town buses are going to be moved to the north side of the station and the V/Line buses will apparently remain where they are for the greater ease of access.

The greatest bone of contention was if the V/Line buses were to be moved to the north side of the station as well then access was going to be an issue with people dragging luggage across the tracks to where the long distance terminal was planned to be.

Mike.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
If P1 and P2 are used about equally (as reported elsewhere) then a split bus terminal gives best of both worlds no?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

A quick glance at the Western Weekday WTT suggests that the platform split is indeed fairly even for pass services. (Note: not doubting the veracity of the anecdotal claims, was just curious if it was timetabled or only in practice.) That said, I would argue (using my own anecdote!) having town buses and long-distance coaches on opposite sides of the station is a bit of a recipe for confusion - ever tried explaining to an out-of-towner (or even irregular public transport user) the difference between suburban trains, commuter trains and long-haul trains for the purpose of ticket buying? Same problem here.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
That's a wayfinding issue and signage should be clear.  A way around it might be to extend the platform concept to the bus terminals. Platform 3 for the VLine services next to P1 and Platform 4 for the city services.  Bays can be labelled 4A 4B etc.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

I think I'd prefer say Bay 30-39 for one side and 40-49 for the other, a la Southern Cross. It might be even more confusing adding letters to the mix.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I think I'd prefer say Bay 30-39 for one side and 40-49 for the other, a la Southern Cross. It might be even more confusing adding letters to the mix.
potatoinmymouth
Either could work (so long as there are less than 10 bays on each side).

Letters are consistent with train platform numbering though a la SCS too Wink
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The current bay numbers start at 3, presumably to avoid confusion between them and the Platforms.

The main point of contention with this project is it is being delivered by Regional Development Victoria, and not PTV, and as such they have no idea what people who catch public transport actually require, and consultation happened quite late in the process (such as them not even knowing there was a difference between local buses and V/Line buses).

The bus interchange will be interesting. There is a real opportunity to have a bus only road across the precinct, but instead it looks like buses will be mixed in with cars, have to do a loop around the terminal before leaving via the same road. Making bus routes longer and more frustrating is hardly going to get anyone interested in catching buses.

There's a lot of people angry about car parking too, which is understandable when you consider Ballarat is a city of 100,000 people with only two stations.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
If P1 and P2 are used about equally (as reported elsewhere) then a split bus terminal gives best of both worlds no?
james.au

At this time Platform 2 is only used around 5% of the time by peak trains, however that may well change going forward. So for the tiny...and I emphasise TINY minority of pax who use Ballarat's public bus system despite it being 'free' with a Myki, they will have to walk over the historic over-bridge under the station awnings, or cross the tracks at the down end of the station.

Mike.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Isn't there plans to build a new fully DDA compliant pedestrian overpass, probably at the Eastern side of the train hall ?

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