Flyover at Altona Junction?

 
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The Kororoit Creek road level crossing is set to be replaced by a rail overbridge. And that section of track will be duplicated at the same time.
That has got me thinking of reconfiguring the railway junction nearby with the either the up trains from Altona loop above trains in both directions (flyover junction) on the express lines or the up trains on both lines above all down trains (echelon junction).
Like level crossings, flat junctions, up trains using Altona loop must not be scheduled to arrive at the junction at the same time as down trains bypassing it.
This grade separation will mean no more conflict between up and down trains at that junction. Also, grade separating the level crossing and the junction at the same time will be cheaper and with less disruption than doing them, say, many years apart.

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The Level Crossing Authority ruled this out and stated that PTV will investigate this as well and the full duplication of the Altona Loop.

But yes I agree it makes sense for it happen at the same time to reduce delays at this junction. Same can be said for the Williamstown line junction and the one at Deer Park as well where the Ballarat and Geelong lines connect (which should of happened at the same time they are duplicating the Ballarat line) . But looks like for the moment unfortunately it looks like it will be done at a later date as a seperate project.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
1/3 to 1/2 of trains will go to Williamstown. Up trains crossing down trains here isn't going to cause as big of an issue as at Newport. Using the money to fully duplicate the Altona Loop to avoid more late running would be much better.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

How many trains run direct from Newport to Werribee?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
But yes I agree it makes sense for it happen at the same time to reduce delays at this junction. Same can be said for the Williamstown line junction and the one at Deer Park as well where the Ballarat and Geelong lines connect (which should of happened at the same time they are duplicating the Ballarat line) . But looks like for the moment unfortunately it looks like it will be done at a later date as a seperate project.
James974
There is a road overpass at Williamstown junction which prevents raising any tracks. And remember, it's a low lying, so I'm not sure about dive-unders. If we replace that road overpass with some other grade-separated crossing, then it may be easier to have grade separated branching.
The Deer Park Junction seems to be quite new, so why is it a flat crossing?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

But yes I agree it makes sense for it happen at the same time to reduce delays at this junction. Same can be said for the Williamstown line junction and the one at Deer Park as well where the Ballarat and Geelong lines connect (which should of happened at the same time they are duplicating the Ballarat line) . But looks like for the moment unfortunately it looks like it will be done at a later date as a seperate project.
There is a road overpass at Williamstown junction which prevents raising any tracks. And remember, it's a low lying, so I'm not sure about dive-unders. If we replace that road overpass with some other grade-separated crossing, then it may be easier to have grade separated branching.
The Deer Park Junction seems to be quite new, so why is it a flat crossing?
Myrtone
For the Williamstown junction it would have to be a rail under grade seperation. Make the Werribee line go underneath Williamstown line and have underground platforms at Newport.Then Metro 2 tunnel can connect the Werribee line.

Deer Park junction is a flat crossing due to cost cutbacks  (this is why the project came out cheaper than originally proposed). Looks like they are going to redo this junction when the Melton Line is electrified hopefully.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
For the Williamstown junction it would have to be a rail under grade seperation. Make the Werribee line go underneath Williamstown line and have underground platforms at Newport.Then Metro 2 tunnel can connect the Werribee line.
James974
Are you giving a reason other than the clearance under the overpass why it would be rail under?

Deer Park junction is a flat crossing due to cost cutbacks  (this is why the project came out cheaper than originally proposed). Looks like they are going to redo this junction when the Melton Line is electrified hopefully.
James974
So if it were built, it would have cost as much as originally proposed.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

For the Williamstown junction it would have to be a rail under grade seperation. Make the Werribee line go underneath Williamstown line and have underground platforms at Newport.Then Metro 2 tunnel can connect the Werribee line.
Are you giving a reason other than the clearance under the overpass why it would be rail under?

Deer Park junction is a flat crossing due to cost cutbacks  (this is why the project came out cheaper than originally proposed). Looks like they are going to redo this junction when the Melton Line is electrified hopefully.
So if it were built, it would have cost as much as originally proposed.
Myrtone
Rail under for untangle the Williamstown junction is yes due to the over bridge which would need to be demolished (in 2010 they upgraded that bridge seems a waste to demolish). The other reason is so it is easier for the rail line to go under the Yarra river if Metro 2 was to be constructed in the future.

The RRL project went under review and many changes under both Government. I found the news article that mentions these cut backs made in 2010 by Labor and sign contracts by the Libs in 2011. Cutbacks as follows:
-Flyover at Deerpark
-No removals of crossing on Ballarat line (This is before Libs added two level crossing removals to the project)
-Using existing flyerover at North Mebourne instead building new one

Here's the article; http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/vline-crisis-began-with-regional-rail-link-cutbacks-five-years-ago-20160202-gmjsen.html
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Rail under for untangle the Williamstown junction is yes due to the over bridge which would need to be demolished (in 2010 they upgraded that bridge seems a waste to demolish). The other reason is so it is easier for the rail line to go under the Yarra river if Metro 2 was to be constructed in the future.
James974
This overbridge was built in 1960 to replace a crossing with wooden interlocked gates operated from a signal box that probably also operated the points at the junction. Road flyovers built in areas already built up by that time have been criticised for their effect on the amenity of the area. So demolishing the flyover might improve the amenity of that area, but not if it is replaced by a level crossing.
However, even with the flyover demolished, it would still be easier, it seems, for the railway to go under the river than over.

The RRL project went under review and many changes under both Government. I found the news article that mentions these cut backs made in 2010 by Labor and sign contracts by the Libs in 2011. Cutbacks as follows:
-Flyover at Deerpark
-No removals of crossing on Ballarat line (This is before Libs added two level crossing removals to the project)
-Using existing flyerover at North Mebourne instead building new one
James974
So there were three:
I - So there is conflict between Melbourne bound Geelong line trains and Ballarat line trains in both directions. With grade separated branching
II -I wonder if the money and resources that could have been spent on grade separations on the Ballarat line have instead been spent on other road projects elsewhere.
III -Where would that new one be?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Heres a map what this flyover looks like in Google maps. Ross Road can be resurfaced at the same time.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

The RRL project went under review and many changes under both Government. I found the news article that mentions these cut backs made in 2010 by Labor and sign contracts by the Libs in 2011. Cutbacks as follows:
-Flyover at Deerpark
-No removals of crossing on Ballarat line (This is before Libs added two level crossing removals to the project)
-Using existing flyerover at North Mebourne instead building new one.
III -Where would that new one be?
Myrtone
$200 Million was diverted to the Main Road St Albans level crossing removal (mayby the most expensive grade sep to date)
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The resurfacing of Ross Road doesn't seem to have anything to do untangling Altona Junction.

Had the Main road level crossing been grade separated decades ago, it would have cost less than $200mil, even in today's dollars. It if were done before the area was built up, it could have been a simple road over job with no dip in the railway. Streets flanking the railway would not have been built. Same with Furlong road.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The resurfacing of Ross Road doesn't seem to have anything to do untangling Altona Junction.

Had the Main road level crossing been grade separated decades ago, it would have cost less than $200mil, even in today's dollars. It if were done before the area was built up, it could have been a simple road over job with no dip in the railway. Streets flanking the railway would not have been built. Same with Furlong road.Th
Myrtone
The resurfacing of Ross Road it is to provide access to a possible future station for Altona North near the Altona Junction.

It is 200 million because it required to remove hard bedrock and took ages to get done. Also has a redevelopment of shops and the huge station entrances, with lifts, ramps and stairs. I agree it would been better as a Rail over Road solution not the latter road over rail solution. If it were built road over rail before built up, you would still be left with the pedestrian crossings, and the terrible looking St Albans station. I think the cost can be justified, since many other crossing being done at a bigger scale, the costs will reduce per crossing and be worth the benefits brought by this project and the others to follow suit.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The resurfacing of Ross Road it is to provide access to a possible future station for Altona North near the Altona Junction.
James974
Okay, where would it be specifically? That diagonal section between Altona Junction and Laverton currently has no stations on it making it well suited to express trains. If there is going to be a station there, there would better be overtaking loops.

It is 200 million because it required to remove hard bedrock and took ages to get done. Also has a redevelopment of shops and the huge station entrances, with lifts, ramps and stairs. I agree it would been better as a Rail over Road solution not the latter road over rail solution. If it were built road over rail before built up, you would still be left with the pedestrian crossings, and the terrible looking St Albans station. I think the cost can be justified, since many other crossing being done at a bigger scale, the costs will reduce per crossing and be worth the benefits brought by this project and the others to follow suit.
James974
As noted above and once again;
If it were built road over earlier, there would be no streets flanking the station, so no (at-grade) pedestrian crossings next to it. It would be like those flyovers in Craigieburn.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The resurfacing of Ross Road doesn't seem to have anything to do untangling Altona Junction.

Had the Main road level crossing been grade separated decades ago, it would have cost less than $200mil, even in today's dollars. It if were done before the area was built up, it could have been a simple road over job with no dip in the railway. Streets flanking the railway would not have been built. Same with Furlong road.Th
The resurfacing of Ross Road it is to provide access to a possible future station for Altona North near the Altona Junction.

It is 200 million because it required to remove hard bedrock and took ages to get done. Also has a redevelopment of shops and the huge station entrances, with lifts, ramps and stairs. I agree it would been better as a Rail over Road solution not the latter road over rail solution. If it were built road over rail before built up, you would still be left with the pedestrian crossings, and the terrible looking St Albans station. I think the cost can be justified, since many other crossing being done at a bigger scale, the costs will reduce per crossing and be worth the benefits brought by this project and the others to follow suit.
James974
The rail over option was costed at about 1/3 of the cost of what they ended up with.

But the Government of the day was unsure of how the public would of reacted.

As to how much the Furlong Road crossing costs ? maybe a closely guarded secret.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

It is 200 million because it required to remove hard bedrock and took ages to get done. Also has a redevelopment of shops and the huge station entrances, with lifts, ramps and stairs. I agree it would been better as a Rail over Road solution not the latter road over rail solution. If it were built road over rail before built up, you would still be left with the pedestrian crossings, and the terrible looking St Albans station. I think the cost can be justified, since many other crossing being done at a bigger scale, the costs will reduce per crossing and be worth the benefits brought by this project and the others to follow suit.
The rail over option was costed at about 1/3 of the cost of what they ended up with.

But the Government of the day was unsure of how the public would of reacted.

As to how much the Furlong Road crossing costs ? maybe a closely guarded secret.
Nightfire
The package costed $480 million, http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/getting-on-with-four-more-level-crossing-removals/
So subtract 200 million from St Albans makes 280 million. Then divide that by the remaining three, gives an estimation of 93 million.

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