Reopen Southern Cross underpass

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Southern Cross Station had been redeveloped for the better or worse back in 2006/7. But when they designed it never thought that it could get this busy with the boom in patronage in 2008 and onwards. Since then the station is very busy and the escalators at both ends cannot take the amount of people leaving the station. Although the subway below is left untouched, but is blocked up for the public to use. Just need to reopen the entrances to the subway and upgrade it and you get another easy entrance and exit to the station. It's great news that they are upgrading Flinders Street station with their old subways/concourse entry points and removing the fence at the Elizabeth Subway. Southern Cross needs that extra entry point and would not cost much at all to open it to the public for use.

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  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
Southern Cross Station had been redeveloped for the better or worse back in 2006/7. But when they designed it never thought that it could get this busy with the boom in patronage in 2008 and onwards. Since then the station is very busy and the escalators at both ends cannot take the amount of people leaving the station. Although the subway below is left untouched, but is blocked up for the public to use. Just need to reopen the entrances to the subway and upgrade it and you get another easy entrance and exit to the station. It's great news that they are upgrading Flinders Street station with their old subways/concourse entry points and removing the fence at the Elizabeth Subway. Southern Cross needs that extra entry point and would not cost much at all to open it to the public for use.
James974
There was a flurry of comment in the media and in this forum some time back about this proposal . But since then it has gone very quiet .
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello James974 and others,

Subway will not reopen as it is not Disabled Access compliant and subways are considered a high risk in the event of a terror attack. Currently the pedestrian cycle for Bourke, Spencer and Collins St are long enough to clear the current passenger load. If need be an extra 20 seconds could probably be added without causing too much road traffic delay.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Hello James974 and others,

Subway will not reopen as it is not Disabled Access compliant and subways are considered a high risk in the event of a terror attack. Currently the pedestrian cycle for Bourke, Spencer and Collins St are long enough to clear the current passenger load. If need be an extra 20 seconds could probably be added without causing too much road traffic delay.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
Radioman
Why would the subway need to be disabled access compliant? It's not as if it's the only access to the station and the platforms.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Hello James974 and others,

Subway will not reopen as it is not Disabled Access compliant and subways are considered a high risk in the event of a terror attack. Currently the pedestrian cycle for Bourke, Spencer and Collins St are long enough to clear the current passenger load. If need be an extra 20 seconds could probably be added without causing too much road traffic delay.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
Radioman
That is utter nonsense, Perth was able to do it. Their city link project built a subway that was DDA compliant (using lifts) and it is very open and connected the main station and their underground station. It is very well designed to reduce noise from trains and not a high risk area for any danger. For Southern Cross you only need to widen the subway, put new signage and panelling and some lifts and and it is complete.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trHa37u3UFc
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Excuses excuses........
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I am trying to remember the route as I have recently used the service, but the subway is used by Travellers Aid to move disabled passengers between the suburban platforms and the country platforms on their golf buggy. Recently, I had to travel between a Craigieburn arrival at Southern Cross and platform 2 for a Geelong train. I was told to go wait outside the lift on platform 8 and was taken on a rather interesting route vis the subway to platform 2 I think it was. I presume that this would be a similar route to those travellers travelling between the suburban lines and V/Line platforms.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I am trying to remember the route as I have recently used the service, but the subway is used by Travellers Aid to move disabled passengers between the suburban platforms and the country platforms on their golf buggy. Recently, I had to travel between a Craigieburn arrival at Southern Cross and platform 2 for a Geelong train. I was told to go wait outside the lift on platform 8 and was taken on a rather interesting route vis the subway to platform 2 I think it was. I presume that this would be a similar route to those travellers travelling between the suburban lines and V/Line platforms.
xxxxlbear
Check this show the old underpass and signage that says underpass to be used by Travellers Aid via the ramps http://www.railgeelong.com/gallery/geelong-line/southern-cross/144_4489.jpg.html
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The subway's purpose Is for behind the scenes station services (this formerly took place at the Southern end of the old station layout, but has been swapped around)

If greater passenger access to the platforms Is required expect nothing but a new build access set up.

Though If you visit Deutsche Bahn's busiest station Hamburg HBF, they only use overhead concourses at each end of the train hall.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The subway's purpose Is for behind the scenes station services (this formerly took place at the Southern end of the old station layout, but has been swapped around)

If greater passenger access to the platforms Is required expect nothing but a new build access set up.

Though If you visit Deutsche Bahn's busiest station Hamburg HBF, they only use overhead concourses at each end of the train hall.
Nightfire
Perhaps is it possible to make the subway dual purpose, or maybe it can be used during peak times at the very least. Then a new access doesn't need to be provided as such and won't cost much. If not enough room maybe could do with a little widening on existing subway and upgrade it so it's open and not dingy and unsafe. Lifts, escalators can be retrofitted into the design. New shops area could be added below from the savings by using the existing subway. There is so much potential there be such a waste just leave the subway in its awful state.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Perhaps is it possible to make the subway dual purpose, or maybe it can be used during peak times at the very least. Then a new access doesn't need to be provided as such and won't cost much. If not enough room maybe could do with a little widening on existing subway and upgrade it so it's open and not dingy and unsafe. Lifts, escalators can be retrofitted into the design. New shops area could be added below from the savings by using the existing subway. There is so much potential there be such a waste just leave the subway in its awful state.
James974
OHS bureaucrats would totally knife this Idea In the back !
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Hello James974 and others,

Subway will not reopen as it is not Disabled Access compliant and subways are considered a high risk in the event of a terror attack. Currently the pedestrian cycle for Bourke, Spencer and Collins St are long enough to clear the current passenger load. If need be an extra 20 seconds could probably be added without causing too much road traffic delay.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
"Radioman"

Anyone up for closing the two subways at Flinders Street if they are a terrorism risk? Smile

This disabled accessibility excuse has gone way too far, Melbourne's train stations are just as anti-wheelchair as any other station not called Heyington, and trams are even worse (D1 trams run on routes which have very few accessible stops outside the CBD, while they run A and B classes on routes which have tons of platform stops). I think this is actually the one and only time that buses beat both trains and trams in Melbourne.

Railway stations will always be anti-wheelchair until an accessible entry/exit point is provided on both ends of each platform. Even newly built stations fail the disability test. Heatherdale gets an olive-green-cigarette-packet stamp of disapproval for not having an exit at the down end despite the carpark being right next to the platforms. Of course the only exit provided is all the way out at Heatherdale Road. Ironically it was more accessible when it was above ground for fifty years prior.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

Anyone up for closing the two subways at Flinders Street if they are a terrorism risk? Smile

This disabled accessibility excuse has gone way too far, Melbourne's train stations are just as anti-wheelchair as any other station not called Heyington, and trams are even worse (D1 trams run on routes which have very few accessible stops outside the CBD, while they run A and B classes on routes which have tons of platform stops). I think this is actually the one and only time that buses beat both trains and trams in Melbourne.

Railway stations will always be anti-wheelchair until an accessible entry/exit point is provided on both ends of each platform. Even newly built stations fail the disability test. Heatherdale gets an olive-green-cigarette-packet stamp of disapproval for not having an exit at the down end despite the carpark being right next to the platforms. Of course the only exit provided is all the way out at Heatherdale Road. Ironically it was more accessible when it was above ground for fifty years prior.
Heihachi_73
Flinders Street Station's pedestrian subways are a joke and a major embarrassment for a City like Melbourne.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Flinders Street Station's pedestrian subways are a joke and a major embarrassment for a City like Melbourne.
Nightfire
At least the subways are getting upgrades very soon, and yes they are don't meet the accessiblilty act. But remember it would need alot of demolishing for it to happen. The concourse at Flinders street at least has lifts for those to access. But at the Elizabeth subway you could retrofit lifts on the opposite side to enable access via the west side of Fllinder street, but that is unlikely to happen.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Is not the underground loop just a giant subway with all the so called risks that they include?
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

Just prior to the work at Southern Cross being completed I asked the question of one of the wider Project team when the subway was to be re opened , and the reply was that it would not reopen due to not being disability accessible. It would require either a ramp or a lift.

The proximity of buildings rule out a lift , and the narrow footpath ruled out the ramp , hence it was and remains closed.

In this regard, the current Flinders St is rather awkward , the Degraves St pedestrian subway being a case in point.

The altered pedestrian subway at Elizabeth St is also not satisfactory.

In both of these cases making them disability accessible will be very expensive , added to which Flinders St subways are all vulnerable to flooding .

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Hello All,

I asked the question of one of the wider Project team when the subway was to be re opened , and the reply was that it would not reopen due to not be disability accessible. It would require either a ramp or a lift.

The proximity of buildings rule out a lift , and the narrow footpath ruled out the ramp , hence it was and remains closed.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
Radioman
Did they rule out building a new subway?
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Dear James974 and others ,

I do not know the answer to that. Bear in mind though that the current Southern Cross is vastly more accessible than the previous iteration of Spencer St.

Around the time of construction the Mail Exchange was ( is ? ) Commonwealth Government owned , the tavern opposite it was tied up in solvency issues with the Government of Nauru's Property Trust , the Savoy Hotel was being refurbished , the Tramways Building had become a Body Corporate Residential Building and the former MMBW HQ was also being refurbished .

Although I am unaware of the Projects detailed scope ( which had been amended on a number of occasions) the above issues would doubtless have added many layers of complexity to such a proposal , which in any case would also need the support of Melbourne City Council.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Dear YM-Mundrabilla and others,

Re the Underground Loop , yes it is but it has multiple entry / exit points which are disability accessible , though with all the lifts at both Parliament and Flagstaff out of use for an upgrade , persons requiring a lift are being directed to Museum / Melbourne Central .

I have no idea why all the lifts have to be done at once , but there you are , the wonderful world of contracting apparently makes it so . Presumably none of the contractors require the use of the lifts .

Best wishes and regards to all, Radioman
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Dear Heihachi73 and others,

Yes, I agree that some of the new design stations are not that well thought out. Putting lifts at the opposite end of the station to the car park being an obvious example .( Part of the Life be in It Campaign )

The new Frankston Line stations have no roof covering the ramps for instance , so when the ramps get wet ( a predictable consequence of rain ) they will also be slippery , thereby ensuring you both get wet and walk the risk of still slipping over and getting injured . I am also not sure of the purpose of the provision of an exposed seat half way up the ramp .

The provision of lifts seems a bit pointless if all of them are booked out for maintenance.

While signage seems reasonable ( I really should go and recheck that , poor signage being a particular bugbear ) there seems to be an inconsistent provision of signage related to pushers and prams and bicycles         . If the intention is for pushers and prams to load near the front of the train , then adequate shelter and appropriate signage should be provided .

There is also a desire for bicycles to be loaded on the rear vehicle , yet signage for this is inconsistent. Whilst I understand the desire for cyclists not to use the leading vehicle ( to allow for wheelchair traffic ) I would have thought any other car would not be a problem.

Best wishes and regards,Radioman
  Radioman Chief Train Controller

Hello All,

Whilst we are on a run complaining about station design , I for one find the ongoing safety and information announcements are becoming both annoying and are ultimately counter productive. The point of announcements is surely to say something of immediate relevance, such as late running , altered stopping conditions etc . You want passengers to listen to announcements , if you overload them with irrelevancies they switch of when you really need them to listen.

While not discounting the need for safety advice, surely some cleverly designed posters would be more appropriate ? There needs to be a review of information board location and design , and a more consistent use of design to ensure that both incoming and outgoing passengers will pass such poster boards and read what is appropriate .

The advice regarding bustitution during Occupations also seems to vary from good to atrocious . If a series of standard formats was correctly utilised it would cover all possible combination of requirements.

The use of departure only time table posters for both the Up and Down sides is also applied inconsistently , most likely due to a lack of poster boards to accomodate them. My other criticism of time table posters is the very small print size, so much so that having a magnifying glass on hand is probably wise even for the well sighted , so people with failing eyesight do have a real problem here.

Best wishes and regards, Radioman.

Listening to Rossini's Barber of Seville.

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