New long-distance V/Line rolling stock

 
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormous power to climb hills or accelerate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.
Hi Woodford

Just out of interest. How long does it take a 6 car N set (with an N class loco) to reach 115 kph on level track?

Duncs

Sponsored advertisement

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If it's only for 130kph running, build some non-powered VLocity buffet carriages (TR) with reversible luxury (reclining perhaps) seating, power points for laptops, USB charging and Wi-Fi. Club seating allows small groups to hold meetings whilst travelling. Add a surcharge, say $20 - $40, for seats in the carriage. Consider making provision in the design for the installation of motors at a later date, if needed.

DM(D) - TM - TR - TM - DM  

vicsig.net abbreviations:
DM - Driver Motor
DM(D) - Driver Motor with disabled toilet
TM  - Trailer Motor
A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormouse power to climb hills or accelarate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.

A second point is currently all VLocity cars have there own Auxilary power supply, this being a small (around 50bhp) diesel alternator to supply, lighting , airconditioning etc. I do not know if they have the ability to supply another car, particuarly one with additional food storage, heating and freezing, this can easily add 10kw to the load.
In a system like this, say a 3 car set, where the Auxilary power supply can take over when one of the other 2 sets fail. One power supply MUST be able to supply the whole thing, otherwise one risks a cascading failure due to overloads of indivdual supplies, when a supply fails..
I imagine they'd keep the aux generators at one per car even on the unpowered ones since they are already happy with generators under the floors of loco hauled cars now. Having 5 cars worth of gens I would hope would be more than enough so in the event of one failing, 4 would be sufficient to (and wired for) running 1 dead car and putting 1.25 car loads on each.

The unpowered car would be quieter without a 19L cummins hammering away under the floor so I imagine the first class passengers would prefer to be on it as opposed to paying premium to listen to engine noise for the entire Melbourne to Warrnambool run plus the space that would normally be taken up with an engine could be used for a range extending fuel tank to feed the neighbouring cars.

With the longer distances between stations and the less of a priority of fast acceleration though I have to wonder about the need for 4 powered cars instead of an M-T-M-T-M setup, especially when there would be more 115/130km/h running than 160km/h. You'd have more cars available for first class passengers paying for a smooth and quiet ride and be burning less fuel when cruising. You'd still have the ~1800hp of a regular 3 car set but when taking the place of a N class hauled train you'd be without the turbo lag of the 2,400hp N class on leaving stations and without the 124T using some fo that power to accelerate and move itself
DounutCereal
Caught the Canberra Explorer to Sydney about 3 years ago in FC (4h 20min). I remember alot of things from that trip and what I don't recall is excessive noise or vibration and I sat next to the exhaust duct work section.

Meanwhile in India, every apartment building complex has its own backup genset, one was outside my unit, 6m away. You almost had to put your ear on the container it sat inside to hear it.

Only way a M-T-M will work is if you increase the M's power output, such as the Prospector
Velocity is 559kW/car
Prospector is 722kW/car, but in M-T-M is 481kW/car, which is low, but not as gutless as a Explorer as 383kW/car.
M-T-M-M is roughly same as Velocity.

(Not sure what the Prospector car weight is to do a power to weight ratio)
And note the prospector has no Aux power units so this comes off the main traction derating the traction capability.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
FC  = wot
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
FC  = wot
YM-Mundrabilla
FC = First Class
BC = Business Class
PR = Premium Economy Class
EC = Economy (cattle) Class
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

All current VLocity trailers are powered. TM (not T) = Trailer motor.

The nomenclature is from the VicSig site:
http://vicsig.net/passenger/rollingstock/railmotors/VLocity
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Me thinks that these new Vlocs sets will be 4 carraiges, with more horsepower.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Me thinks that these new Vlocs sets will be 4 carraiges, with more horsepower.
trainbrain
The V/locity sets in service have grown a fair bit. Most operating in 3 car sets if not 4 car sets and with it you would expect the govt to be thinking about allowing the design to evolve as well to reduce the per car cost knowing they will be operating larger sets.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormous power to climb hills or accelerate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.
Hi Woodford

Just out of interest. How long does it take a 6 car N set (with an N class loco) to reach 115 kph on level track?

Duncs
Duncs
2.6 kilometres to reach 100kph, a bit over 4 kilometres to each 115kph and 7.5 kilometres to reach 130kph, the tractive effort at this speed at full throttle is only around 9600lbs, this is less than 100th of the train weight.

This calculated in a simulation, the 100kph distance is closely matched in real life.

woodford
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

First class and a buffet should be retained..


Also, any new long distance rollingstock should also have some sort of curtains/blinds/venetians on the windows, there needs to be some way for passengers to shut out the sun when it is shining directly in their window.

Also some van space (long distance passengers are more likely to travel with a lot of luggage).

What is going to happen with the level crossings on long distance lines that don't have boom barriers?
Will they all be upgraded to have boom gates (best but very expensive option), or would it be possible to engineer a cab with sufficient crashworthiness into a DMU design to allow travelling through crossings at over 80km/h?
Slowing the train to 80km/h at every crossing would surely make the trip take longer then the existing loco hauled service.

N463
Buffet/First Class - Am open to further discussion on this. The faster the trains travel the less need there is for them.

Blinds - Agree. They are much needed, and wish they were on Vlos now.

Luggage Van - From the media releases I believe this to be on the cards.

Level Crossing - Interesting Point. Thanks for raising it.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Velocities have the Faraday shield effect.


DalyWaters
I've never had an issue. My phone aerial is pretty crap cause I've dropped it often, but the only time I have an issue with reception on Vlo is when the signal in the area is weak. (Gippy line)



(Is there a better way to quote in this forum? Seems a bit arduous. Kinda wish the layout was more like whirlpool, as forum is filled with too many boxes and wasted space. Makes it hard to read. I Like the response icons though. Does the quoted text have a way to click on it and take you back to the original post? I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Can someone inbox me with any assistance. TIA)
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Velocities have the Faraday shield effect.


I've never had an issue. My phone aerial is pretty crap cause I've dropped it often, but the only time I have an issue with reception on Vlo is when the signal in the area is weak. (Gippy line)



(Is there a better way to quote in this forum? Seems a bit arduous. Kinda wish the layout was more like whirlpool, as forum is filled with too many boxes and wasted space. Makes it hard to read. I Like the response icons though. Does the quoted text have a way to click on it and take you back to the original post? I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Can someone inbox me with any assistance. TIA)
cabidass
Phone reception on the Vlocity is greatly impeded by the car itself.  Tint on the windows, double skin constructions, lots of things to bounce the signal off??    I don't know, the tech gurus will say what causes it, but its there!  The phone works fine on a Sprinter on a comparative run.  

Even in metropolitan Melbourne one can be struggling for a signal on a Vlocity.   I have not been able to use GPS at all on a Vlocity, yet it happily works on a Sprinter.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Velocities have the Faraday shield effect.


I've never had an issue. My phone aerial is pretty crap cause I've dropped it often, but the only time I have an issue with reception on Vlo is when the signal in the area is weak. (Gippy line)



(Is there a better way to quote in this forum? Seems a bit arduous. Kinda wish the layout was more like whirlpool, as forum is filled with too many boxes and wasted space. Makes it hard to read. I Like the response icons though. Does the quoted text have a way to click on it and take you back to the original post? I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Can someone inbox me with any assistance. TIA)
Phone reception on the Vlocity is greatly impeded by the car itself.  Tint on the windows, double skin constructions, lots of things to bounce the signal off??    I don't know, the tech gurus will say what causes it, but its there!  The phone works fine on a Sprinter on a comparative run.  

Even in metropolitan Melbourne one can be struggling for a signal on a Vlocity.   I have not been able to use GPS at all on a Vlocity, yet it happily works on a Sprinter.
skitz
All of the windows have a thin metallic film on them to reduce Solar UV and heat radiation since they don't have curtains or blinds.  That's why Vlos are a (very effective) Faraday cage.  It'll be interesting to see what they do with the new long-distance trains, especially given that phone reception is usually poorer in the outer regions.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

skitz I have not been able to use GPS at all on a Vlocity, yet it happily works on a Sprinter.
Fair enough.

I'm familiar with the faraday effect. My new sporting clubrooms have steel frame, and my local pub is double brick, so I rarely get a signal in either.

So was surprised any issue with Vlocitys, as I only have an issue within when we are in black spots.

But I have never compared in a sprinter.

Guess it's more of an issue that I realised.

I'm not sure if it's possible to get multi-telco 3/4G repeaters within the carriages......?

--------------

RE: Prospector - Interesting. Never head of the train. Though haven't been to WA since on the Indian Pacific 15 years ago... (Got real drunk in Kal on the stopover...) Looks like a sexy train, with lots of power. Bit silly not having an Aux motor in this day and age though. Engine dies, no Aircon...?

Wouldn't want that on the Vlos let alone in WA...
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger

I'm not sure if it's possible to get multi-telco 3/4G repeaters within the carriages......?
cabidass
I believe such a program is already underway?

From The Age in April:

Work has also already begun to retro-fit metal Vlocity carriages with a in-train technology that will boost existing signals.
Bhakthi Puvanenthiran, The Age
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Another option for long distance rolling stock could be a sg version of the Queensland Diesel Tilt Train.

  • You only need two power cars instead of powering each DMU.
  • The current version has 3600hp per power car, so 7200hp for the entire train in push pull mode.
  • You can easily have up to 7 carriages, instead of the 5 planned for a DMU, so all the capacity you will need.
  • They can do 160kph comfortably on RFR / RRL track and 130 kph elsewhere.
  • Power car axle loading is 16 tons (4 axels for a 64 ton power car). Lets say 68 tones including fuel, so that's the same axel load as a V Locity.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormous power to climb hills or accelerate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.
Hi Woodford

Just out of interest. How long does it take a 6 car N set (with an N class loco) to reach 115 kph on level track?

Duncs
2.6 kilometres to reach 100kph, a bit over 4 kilometres to each 115kph and 7.5 kilometres to reach 130kph, the tractive effort at this speed at full throttle is only around 9600lbs, this is less than 100th of the train weight.

This calculated in a simulation, the 100kph distance is closely matched in real life.

woodford
woodford
Thanks Woodford
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
A 21st century diesel with 160 in its name has trouble reaching and maintaining 160 km/h? Sounds like we were sold a dud... Maybe we should buy good ol' 4472 from the UK if we want to retain a reasonably fast 20th century railway speed. But of course, that would require the other thing we haven't got in most of the state - standard gauge!
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Heihachi, we just need to do what the late, lamented West Coast Railway did to overcome a shortage of express diesel power. Drag a few of the surviving R's off plinths, tart them up with bling like double chimneys and put them on scheduled services at up to 115 kmh.
  NSWGR 3827 Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Border
Here's a couple of examples of Diesel Electric locomotives that are capable of 160kp/h+

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IE_201_Class
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_67
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_68

So it doesn't have to be an XPT, DMU or Similar.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
A 21st century diesel with 160 in its name has trouble reaching and maintaining 160 km/h? Sounds like we were sold a dud... Maybe we should buy good ol' 4472 from the UK if we want to retain a reasonably fast 20th century railway speed. But of course, that would require the other thing we haven't got in most of the state - standard gauge!
Heihachi_73
Victoria in the recent past has had opportunities to buy some stock from Ireland, and those opportunities were wasted.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

A 21st century diesel with 160 in its name has trouble reaching and maintaining 160 km/h? Sounds like we were sold a dud... Maybe we should buy good ol' 4472 from the UK if we want to retain a reasonably fast 20th century railway speed. But of course, that would require the other thing we haven't got in most of the state - standard gauge!
Victoria in the recent past has had opportunities to buy some stock from Ireland, and those opportunities were wasted.
TOQ-1
What stock from Ireland?

Michael
  SamTheMan79 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Geelong
As I see it (after the recent press releases), Victoria will eventually upgrade all level crossings to boom barriers and we'll have V/Locities in some way, shape or form on all lines.

From what I hear, they will be multiples of 3 car consists only, the same as the current V/Locities but with future orders to include a standard gauge version, an altered layout for additional luggage and some form of catering service.

The powers to be want uniformity and flexibility across the network. Another reason is there is that there is too much cost associated with reconfiguring stabling, workshops and platforms if the consists go to anything greater than 3-cars.





Loco hauled passenger services in Victoria will be a thing of the past in the near future.
  steve195 Train Controller

From what I hear, they will be multiples of 3 car consists only, the same as the current V/Locities but with future orders to include a standard gauge version, an altered layout for additional luggage and some form of catering service.

The powers to be want uniformity and flexibility across the network. Another reason is there is that there is too much cost associated with reconfiguring stabling, workshops and platforms if the consists go to anything greater than 3-cars.
SamTheMan79
FFS.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
A 21st century diesel with 160 in its name has trouble reaching and maintaining 160 km/h? Sounds like we were sold a dud... Maybe we should buy good ol' 4472 from the UK if we want to retain a reasonably fast 20th century railway speed. But of course, that would require the other thing we haven't got in most of the state - standard gauge!
Heihachi_73

A VLocity has no problem in reaching 160KPH and I know through experience they are good for 180KPH, however it depends on the timetable and obviously the train operating express will more easily reach and remain at 160 than a service that has regular stops, such as between Sunshine and Bacchus Marsh.

Mike.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Hmm, number crunching, BHP, Horsepower and such.

First off the figures Woodford supplied us with, V'lo's are equipped with an 800 horsepower Donk, which equates to 10.5BHP/Ton. You would have to say, that at least too 130 kph, these vehicles preform quite well, so power is adequate, at best.

I would think and Woodford can steer the thought train ( ha ha ) from here a bit more, but I would suggest that 900 to 1000 HP and aiming at something like 12 to 15 BHP/Ton, would not be overpowering these vehicles.

So if we say 900 HP, as a base line per car, powered and unpowered, the numbers jump up relatively quickly.

5 car x 900 = 5400 HP, if it was a 3 powered vehicle, 2 trailer, = 1800 HP per powered vehicle, 3 car, 2 powered, 1 trailer, requiring 2700HP, or 2 x 1350 HP, interesting ?

It will be interesting, to see how this all plays out.  

Woodford, it would be intriguing for you to run some acceleration times/distances, with the hp or formula I have used

Thought's / statement's ?

BigShunter.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.