Government warned Melbourne Metro won't support future airport rail link

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 30 Mar 2017 11:24
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Hardly an excuse to drag out Maribyrnong - Airport drooling fantasies.

Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).

Transferring the existing freight path through Footscray for passenger use gives six tracks from Sunshine to the city.

Entirely necessary since you're going to have:

*Sunbury
*Melton
*Wyndham
*Airport
*Geelong
*Ballarat
*Bendigo
*Seymour

... all fighting for space.

And the 'metro' tunnel has no real relevance to whether an airport line can be built - this needs to be sorted out now.

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Hardly an excuse to drag out Maribyrnong - Airport drooling fantasies.

Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).

Transferring the existing freight path through Footscray for passenger use gives six tracks from Sunshine to the city.

Entirely necessary since you're going to have:

*Sunbury
*Melton
*Wyndham
*Airport
*Geelong
*Ballarat
*Bendigo
*Seymour

... all fighting for space.

And the 'metro' tunnel has no real relevance to whether an airport line can be built - this needs to be sorted out now.
ZH836301
Interesting idea, providing the freight connecting to Webb dock and the Newport-Sunshine line and making use of the Footscray freight tunnel, but they're are a few obvious issues.

How to build the Footscray connection, that current freight tunnel you want to turn into passenger rail passes underneath just pass the station. Secondly would you future proof it so that the "bridge" can take 4 tracks, 2 for freight and 2 for passengers, so can access Fisherman bend and untangle Newport junction.

Also I would not totally dismiss the direct options they do have merit as they would access Highpoint shopping centre and the the Defense development site. The only problem as you note as its very expensive and doesn't deliver much more capacity. But I still wouldn't dismiss it, has potential.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
ZH836301
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
LancedDendrite
How is rail access to the docks more useless?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
How is rail access to the docks more useless?
railblogger
I've heard about this reopening the Webb dock rail link closed in 1996. Seems like a better solution than the West Gate tunnel, but you know politics, they always go for the easy option, which is to accept Transurban proposal instead of investigating other options with infrastructure Victoria first.

But I do really think the Rail Future Institute has done a great job investigating options in the long term for an Airport rail link. Focusing on separating the regional and metro system. I support either a direct link into airport, or one that links to Sunshine.  Webb dock link and a Metro 2 tunnel into Newport are also good projects to happen as well. I'm not quite convinced the freight link needs to go to Newport, or the plan to move the freight corridor and reuse existing one for metro services.

Airport link could connect direct into Southern Cross, either as a VLine service, or both Metro/Vline service. They're might need more capacity along the Sunshine/Craigeburn corridor depending on the route. This is exactly why an airport line was never built, this link is a hassle to get into the CBD and the lack in patronage is a real issue in the debate.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
LancedDendrite
You're not too bright, are you?

You think building two bridges is more expensive than 10km of tunnel beneath Maribyrnong?

You think it's useless then link to something with the same outcome, only more expensive and without linking in Webb Dock?

How to build the Footscray connection, that current freight tunnel you want to turn into passenger rail passes underneath just pass the station. Secondly would you future proof it so that the "bridge" can take 4 tracks, 2 for freight and 2 for passengers, so can access Fisherman bend and untangle Newport junction.
James974

Build platforms at Footscray, build bridge with 1-2 tracks (southern moveable, northern conventional), passenger tunnel separate project.

I'm not quite convinced the freight link needs to go to Newport, or the plan to move the freight corridor and reuse existing one for metro services.

It's that or a 5km+ tunnel b/w West Footscray and North Melbourne (more expensive and doesn't add access to Webb Dock).

Not really any other way of getting six tracks down that corridor.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
How is rail access to the docks more useless?
railblogger
It's largely irrelevant to the actual problem. 'Freeing up' the Bunbury St ARTC tracks doesn't actually get you a full 6 tracks between Sunshine and the city. Access to Southern Cross platforms 1-8 from Regional Rail Link and the ARTC network is restricted by the dual track North Melbourne Flyover - and that's without bringing the possible need for even more platforms at Southern Cross to cater for Airport services.

Compare with AirTrain: 6.6km + 4km of tunnels to get you from Southern Cross to the Albion-Jacana corridor vs 2 large bridges over the Yarra, a new ~2km mostly elevated rail line through Fishermans Bend in place of the Lorimer St alignment (Lorimer St is slated for high value residential development - fundamentally incompatible with having a freight railway running through it) and a new North Melbourne flyover. Both are billion-dollar projects, only one of them actually gets you a proper 160kph-capable line to the Airport (and has no land acquisition!)
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Still clutching at straws.

The redevelopment at Fishermans Bend isn't where you think it is.

Returning Webb Dock rail was costed at $120 million some years ago, and there is nothing to impact on that alignment.

It's absurd to suggest adding to that a moveable bridge across the Yarra to Newport would cost anywhere near the same as 6.6km of underground rail.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
How is rail access to the docks more useless?
It's largely irrelevant to the actual problem. 'Freeing up' the Bunbury St ARTC tracks doesn't actually get you a full 6 tracks between Sunshine and the city. Access to Southern Cross platforms 1-8 from Regional Rail Link and the ARTC network is restricted by the dual track North Melbourne Flyover - and that's without bringing the possible need for even more platforms at Southern Cross to cater for Airport services.

Compare with AirTrain: 6.6km + 4km of tunnels to get you from Southern Cross to the Albion-Jacana corridor vs 2 large bridges over the Yarra, a new ~2km mostly elevated rail line through Fishermans Bend in place of the Lorimer St alignment (Lorimer St is slated for high value residential development - fundamentally incompatible with having a freight railway running through it) and a new North Melbourne flyover. Both are billion-dollar projects, only one of them actually gets you a proper 160kph-capable line to the Airport (and has no land acquisition!)
LancedDendrite
Not necessarily - you could reconfigure two of the four tracks in the City Loop to run as a bidirectional railway instead of two loops. This would free up two tracks through Southern Cross.
  doyle Junior Train Controller

We really need a rude button or better still an ar$ehole button to go along with agree disagree informative buttons
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
A foam button would be more useful. That'd get a workout.
  doyle Junior Train Controller
  doyle Junior Train Controller

Nah yeah

Is this better
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

From Fairfax this morning:-

".....The journey to Melbourne Airport may be about to get a lot easier.
It's believed Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is considering bankrolling the Melbourne Airport rail link.
The Commonwealth-funded rail link could link Footscray with Tullamarine, running through the former defence site at Maribyrnong....."
  red_railway Locomotive Fireman

You might see a link to the Airport when the airport decide to build it. They're always on the hunt for new sources of non aviation income.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
You might see a link to the Airport when the airport decide to build it. They're always on the hunt for new sources of non aviation income.
red_railway
It will be a long time before they do anything to jeopardise their parking revenue. Smile
  red_railway Locomotive Fireman

You might see a link to the Airport when the airport decide to build it. They're always on the hunt for new sources of non aviation income.
It will be a long time before they do anything to jeopardise their parking revenue. Smile
YM-Mundrabilla
Well yes, parking is a big earner out there. But that doesn't mean they would ignore another cash cow that wandered into their paddock.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

You might see a link to the Airport when the airport decide to build it. They're always on the hunt for new sources of non aviation income.
It will be a long time before they do anything to jeopardise their parking revenue. Smile
Well yes, parking is a big earner out there. But that doesn't mean they would ignore another cash cow that wandered into their paddock.
red_railway
Melbourne Airport Corporation has plenty to say about the desirability of a railway, but so far are showing no inclination to fork out their own cash to make it happen. I believe that if they were so inclined, they would already be doing it. It is also likely MAC will charge the railway owner/operator hefty fees for allowing said railway on MAC property, thereby nicely supplementing parking revenue
  red_railway Locomotive Fireman

You might see a link to the Airport when the airport decide to build it. They're always on the hunt for new sources of non aviation income.
It will be a long time before they do anything to jeopardise their parking revenue. Smile
Well yes, parking is a big earner out there. But that doesn't mean they would ignore another cash cow that wandered into their paddock.
Melbourne Airport Corporation has plenty to say about the desirability of a railway, but so far are showing no inclination to fork out their own cash to make it happen. I believe that if they were so inclined, they would already be doing it. It is also likely MAC will charge the railway owner/operator hefty fees for allowing said railway on MAC property, thereby nicely supplementing parking revenue
Lockspike
They may not want to fire all their guns at once. MAC, or more importantly, the corporate investors behind them who also have a stake in the PPP at Southern Cross Station, may be content to stoke the flames of demand for an airport link, letting the tension build. When the pressure is right, they could step in with an offer to build it on their terms, which probably would mean a platform surcharge, like Sydney. They're astute. They know how to charge, and when.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
An Upfield Line skyrail if combined properly with a cycling highway, more and better parkland, and fixing the northern end of the line to allow 10 minute services would surely be a vote winner. Given the inner North is going Green, it's also probably in Labor's interest to do it anyway.
  red_railway Locomotive Fireman

I think it should be a double deck train. If they brought it right into the international terminal travellers could load directly from the two decks onto a twin deck Airbus A380. Customs and immigration could all be conducted on the train. Double deck trains in Melbourne have a proud history of reliability. Trains could be painted in airline livery to raise a few dollars
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
LancedDendrite
Agree, you don't even have to electrify that option to save start up costs.

Unfortunately references to support HST doesn't add any value to their argument.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
Simple solution - bridge the Yarra at Appleton Dock, with a swing bridge from Fishermans Bend to the Newport Sunshine line (giving rail access to Webb Dock).
Just as expensive as driving a big tunnel through Maribyrnong for the Airport line and even more useless.

As an alternative, I fully endorse the 'AirTrain' proposal by the Rail Future Institute.
Agree, you don't even have to electrify that option to save start up costs.

Unfortunately references to support HST doesn't add any value to their argument.
RTT_Rules
The ability to turn AirTrain into the Melbourne CBD access corridor for HSR is just a happy consequence of building a dedicated higher-speed express rail corridor that connects with the North East SG line. It'd be a mixed-traffic access corridor, similar to how the TGV operates within Paris. That'd be fine for most envisioned HSR service frequencies (at most 4 trains per hour during peak periods as per AECOM 2012 study or the Beyond Zero Emissions HSR plan).

The Rail Futures Institute proposal does include electrification. Sparking does fix a few problems such as diesel fumes at underground Melbourne Airport & Sunshine stations and it's easy enough to build it in. You could get away with battery-diesel hybrid rollingstock depending on how much HSR future-proofing you want and how good energy storage technology is. Or you could fit honking big fume extractors in at any underground stations, whatever's cheaper.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I don't think the terminus of the electrified line should end at Melbourne Airport, would it best serve the growth in housing developments west of Craigeburn, that would be a better place to terminate the electric train somewhere there.

The inner part is debatable due to the cost but here is the rough idea of the route:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pkzmnWygZvR2xy-IlPisgOIAVc8&usp=sharing
  stooge spark Train Controller

@James974 we are trying to give the airport a rail line, building extra tracks and more lines would be far too expensive at the moment,  can't say I outright think those estates don't need rail however.

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