What are the issues with Melbourne Airport rail?

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 21 Sep 2017 20:33
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I would not be surprised if Airport Rail line pops up just before the state election as a promise and then not happen. Oh wait the Liberals did that. The reality is it will cost a few billion dollars, I don't see where the funding will come from if it goes ahead. The Metro Tunnel is funded but over a period of time. Regional Rail Revival is mostly fed funded and the level crossing removals are costing the rest. Unlike roads, there is no tolling arrangement, so either the Feds work with state gov to fund it or simply remention it for attention. 

There have been excuses like Metro tunnel must come first, and won't get enough patronage. But if the correct alignment and good planning that scenario won't happen. The real barrier is the cost.

Unless they figure out a definite rail alignment and funding available I don't see shovels digging on the project for another --- years. On the other hand there is a lot of major projects happening, wait and see who's brave enough to actually start the project.

What are the issues with Melbourne Airport rail?

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The entire project has been deliberately stalled for years by the ALP to protect the Taxi Industry and the SkyBus.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
mm that is quiet true and well known with there also being pans to go via sunshine and airport west, not an express link to the city
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The entire project has been deliberately stalled for years by the ALP to protect the Taxi Industry and the SkyBus.
bevans

This is in Labor's own document: Transport Plan 2008
10 years later almost everything delivered except these which has still not happened of of yet.
(Melton electrification, Cranbourne East)

Yet been told they are needed in 10 years time but clearly these extensions are in growth corridors and makes sense. In fact it won't cost them much to implement, compared with the other projects (Metro tunnel)
Looks like Mernda was marginal enough to get the extension while others still miss out.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
The entire project has been deliberately stalled for years by the ALP to protect the Taxi Industry and the SkyBus.
bevans

What a load of cr@p Exclamation

Melbourne is bursting at the seams and there aren't enough infrastructure $ available as it is...yet the airport rail supporters want a railway to the airport because Sydney & Brisbane have one Exclamation

It's exceptionally important to get the more pressing projects underway first that will be used by people on a daily basis and if it's so important to keep up with our neighbours...let a private consortium approach the government with an offer to fund and construct it.

Mike.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

The entire project has been deliberately stalled for years by the ALP to protect the Taxi Industry and the SkyBus.

What a load of cr@p Exclamation

Melbourne is bursting at the seams and there aren't enough infrastructure $ available as it is...yet the airport rail supporters want a railway to the airport because Sydney & Brisbane have one Exclamation

It's exceptionally important to get the more pressing projects underway first that will be used by people on a daily basis and if it's so important to keep up with our neighbours...let a private consortium approach the government with an offer to fund and construct it.

Mike.
The Vinelander
So we spend billions upgrading the freeway instead.  

I would think the interests at the airport carparking and Transurban have more to do with stopping the project.   One could speculate that the toll road and the airport parking are the most lucrative cash cows in the country.  Money talks, talks in the right places.  That's not here by the way.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
If the ALP wanted a rail link they would have already built it remember the liberals went to the last state election committing to build the airport link and the ALP have instead greased the palms of Transurban and the taxi industry by spending billions on the road widening to the airport which will be 8 lanes of traffic at one point.  How ridiculous.

It was clear from the decision to widen the freeway and extend tolls the Labor Government is not interested in an airport link.  It is a very easy project to complete and would have cost half of the cost of the freeway widening.

The route via Keilor East and direct to the airport with a deal done on the terminal extension with a train or underground like Sydney.  Clearly the airport rail link is being stalled by vested interests.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
It is a very easy project to complete and would have cost half of the cost of the freeway widening.

The route via Keilor East and direct to the airport with a deal done on the terminal extension with a train or underground like Sydney.  Clearly the airport rail link is being stalled by vested interests.
x31

Please explain how it's a 'very easy project to complete', at far less cost than the current freeway infrastructure works when as we all know the RRL will NOT be able to handle the extra traffic and the Sunbury line can't handle express trains in between its very frequent peak services.

Mike.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
There is no tunnelling, no extra track required between Jacana and Albion. Albion to Sunshine is ok. You would stop at Sunshine anyhow so that makes sense. Then there is only the run into Melbourne via either RRL or Metro lines to Footscray which you would also stop at.

What else is there to do?

This project has been sold as bigger than ben hur!

They put a man on the moon in 1969!
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

The Freeway widen along the Tullamarine freeway was a Liberal project not Labor, Liberals put the money into that upgrade Labor just signed it off and started the construction.

Labor and Liberal both promised rail links to the airport at some point but ditch the plan due to lack of commitment or funding. Compared with other major project particular road ones like North East Link, the Airport Rail would cost much less and deliver a better outcome.

Yes Extension of rail services to growth areas should come, but the Airport Rail link can actually achieve if it extended North and possibly used as Regional Rail Link 2.0. It is likely to run on seperate tracks and provision for a High Speed Rail service built alongside it.

I'm sure this project won't delay other necessary improvements to the existing network such as level crossing removals, duplication/quadruplication, upgrade to high capacity signalling and other rail extensions.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
I tend to agree somewhat but the trap this state falls into is to build a platinum solution when it does not need to be that.  Sydney is not platinum.  Brisbane is not.  Perth may well be.

There is capacity to slot trains in outside the peaks on the network and there is still plenty of capacity on metro tracks between sunshine and SCS with RRL now running.  Who is the government trying to kid?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
We had a transport plan in 1969, look what it got us in half a century. The only thing most people saw were shiny new trains every ten or so years to make it look like the Melbourne network wasn't going stale. 1950s, Harris trains; 1960s, more Harris trains (second series); 1970s, Hitachi trains; 1980s, Comeng trains; 2000s, X'Trapolis and Siemens trains (because some dumbasre split the network in two); 2010s (technically 2009), even more X'Trapolis trains; 2020s, new high capacity trains. The only reason we didn't get new trains in the 1990s is because the 4D program was a complete failure, otherwise we would have had a Tangara-like fleet running until the 2030s or so.

Some people went from regional trains to suburban trains. The only significant change to the rail network was the extension of Epping to South Morang, everything else was simply putting up overhead wires, adding a couple of new stations here and there (and closing others), rail amplification (e.g. duplicating single-line sections or the Flinders Street viaduct going from 4 tracks to 6), and grade separating level crossings. One line even went backwards, going from electric power to diesel locomotives and rail motors.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The entire project has been deliberately stalled for years by the ALP to protect the Taxi Industry and the SkyBus.
bevans
I think you will find its more linked to the actual cost of building the line which exceeds just about everything else combined apart from the city Metro. The Metro costs twice the price but moves probably 10 x as many people and increases capacity (or at least the start) to enable the Airport trains to actually run into the city.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
Actually rail ro the airport can be built for a lot less than $5 billion. However it would mean using the freight corridor that the Albury and Sydney trains use then build a spur from the line from Albion to Jacana. However that would be a poor solution. Footscray would not be served. Trains would have to share the same corridor as freight & diesel power would have to be used.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
@x31 that is debatable as to whether there is enough capacity on the Sunbury corridor.That is one of the fastest growing areas in the country. When Metro is built and the Melton corridor is electrified, they will require 14 trains on the Sunbury corridor and at least 8 on the Melton Corridor at peak. There is no way that corridor will be able to handle trains to the airport.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
@Heihitachi that is why even though we have similar populations Melbourne's rail network is way behind that of Sydney's.

Michael
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

@x31 that is debatable as to whether there is enough capacity on the Sunbury corridor.That is one of the fastest growing areas in the country. When Metro is built and the Melton corridor is electrified, they will require 14 trains on the Sunbury corridor and at least 8 on the Melton Corridor at peak. There is no way that corridor will be able to handle trains to the airport.

Michael
mejhammers1
With HCS (or moving block signalling) you could run about 30 trains per hour, 14 for Sunbury, 8 for Melton and possibly 10 for Airport rail. See enough capacity theoretically if the Metro tunnel is built with the new signalling, Airport rail can run. But it is important that if this capacity better be utilised from day one, so it would be nice for the Airport rail open together with the Metro Tunnel by 2026. It would make a lot of sense to do that.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Actually rail ro the airport can be built for a lot less than $5 billion. However it would mean using the freight corridor that the Albury and Sydney trains use then build a spur from the line from Albion to Jacana. However that would be a poor solution. Footscray would not be served. Trains would have to share the same corridor as freight & diesel power would have to be used.

Michael
mejhammers1

Why can't airport trains serve the Footscray station?  Why the need to use the freight corridor?  The cost would include if I read the thread right:

1. Airport Railway Station
2. New track from the airport to Jacana area junction with BG line between Jacana and Albion
3. Electrification between Jacana and Albion
4. Electrification between the airport and Jacana Airport Junction.

Trains could use Platform 8 at SCS.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Location: Banned
You have to be careful with Block Signalling in our case. Block signalling works great when all trains are the same and use the same stopping patterns. Victoria line in London can run 36tph, all are stopping at all stations. In some sections of the Metro corridor, metro trains have to share track with v/line and freight. I do not know how that will work.

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
There is no tunnelling, no extra track required between Jacana and Albion. Albion to Sunshine is ok. You would stop at Sunshine anyhow so that makes sense. Then there is only the run into Melbourne via either RRL or Metro lines to Footscray which you would also stop at.

What else is there to do?

This project has been sold as bigger than ben hur!

They put a man on the moon in 1969!
x31

I'm not certain what Apollo 11 connection there is with your proposal to implement a train service to the airport but I digress...

What I am certain of is that you don't understand that at peak times, the times the aeroplanes are arriving and departing from Melbourne airport is also the busiest time for the trains travelling between Sunshine and the City on either the Sunbury line OR the RRL.

That is both lines are, or are almost saturated for around 2 hours in the morning and evening peaks.

So...to get the 10 minute train frequency you would demand to/from Melbourne airport because the train service will have to be at least EQUAL in frequency to the existing Skybus service, you want to add another 6 trains per hour on to tracks that are already saturated with peak trains for 4 hours a day. This would mean trains crawling along and stopping all signals because the train that's 2 mins ahead of the airport train has to provide a service to the daily passengers from the stations between Albion and Southern Cross and don't suggest extra tracks...where are they going at Footscray Question...how embarrassing for our tourists and business people watching the grass grow as they crawl along.

You may have been impressed by the moon landing in 1969...but this is about physics and the capacity of the tracks compared to the existing service demand and I tell you, your proposal and demands are FAR more difficult to achieve on the existing infrastructure, at a cost that you claim will be cheaper than the current freeway infrastructure works than sending a man to the Moon was in 1969 Exclamation

Mike.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
They put a man on the moon in 1969!
X31
And they haven't been back since Apollo 17 in 1972. I'll let you work out why.



Airport Rail. One of several rail related topics that have been done to death a million times, along with High Speed Rail and the restoration of H220, but here we go again!

Despite the high profile afforded to it by most in the media, it is not the highest priority for heavy rail in Melbourne. Melton Electrification is of a higher priority (according to Infrastructure Victoria, not me), as is extension of electrification from Werribee to Wyndham Vale.

Back to Airport Rail, you could build it fairly cheaply, with a basic branch from Airport West on the goods line, hooked in through Sunshine, just throw some old comengs on there, or even cheaper, use push pull P class diesels.

Or, you could do it properly.

Step 1. Duplicate and Electrify to Melton, new stations at Hopkins Rd (soon to be home to a massive new suburb called Mt Atkinson) and Mt Cottrell Rd, (home to another new suburb, part of which is already underway as the Thornhill Park estate);

Step 2. Quad electrified track from Caulfield to Dandenong, with no intermediate station platforms on the new track, line speed of 130km/h, just like RRL between Footscray and Sunshine;

Step 3. Build new double electrified track from Albion to Melbourne Airport;

Step 4. Order modified HCMT rollingstock with 130km/h speed capability and appropriate fit-out for extra luggage capacity, also better seating, to primarily be used for through routed Airport line services.

Plan for all of the above to open up at the same time as the Metro tunnel (2026)

Run 3 different services through the Metro:

1. Cranbourne - Sunbury, stopping all stations, except Malvern, Armadale, Toorak and Hawksburn;

2. Dandenong - Melton, stopping all stations, except Malvern, Armadale, Toorak and Hawksburn;

Both 1 and 2 would use the new HCMT rollingstock, Malvern, Armadale, Toorak and Hawksburn would be served by Frankston trains;

3. Pakenham - Melbourne Airport, stops all stations Pakenham to Dandenong, express to Caulfield, express to Metro tunnel, stops all stations Domain to Footscray, express to Sunshine, express to Airport. These would utilise the modified HCMT Airport variant.

Pakenham is the furthest Suburban service from both the CBD and from Tullamarine, therefore it is the prime candidate for through routing with Airport trains, and for a faster service to the CBD.

That would be how to do it properly, future proofing a large part of Melbourne for the next 50 years. Won't be cheap though.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
10 trains an hour to Airport with few other stops???? Since when does the airport need a capacity of 12,000 to 15,000 people per hour in one direction?

If you have a 737 land every 3min that's 4000-6000 per hour arrivals for which PT rail will be happy to get 30-35%.

Try 4 (maybe even 3) trains per hour on start up with future expansion to 6 trains/h.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
10 trains an hour to Airport with few other stops???? Since when does the airport need a capacity of 12,000 to 15,000 people per hour in one direction?

If you have a 737 land every 3min that's 4000-6000 per hour arrivals for which PT rail will be happy to get 30-35%.

Try 4 (maybe even 3) trains per hour on start up with future expansion to 6 trains/h.
RTT_Rules

Then what's the point when the Skybus leaves every 10 minutes all day from around 6am till midnight.

https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable/

The proposed rail service would actually offer a less frequent, less timely, therefore less convenient service to the airport.

Mike.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
10 trains an hour to Airport with few other stops???? Since when does the airport need a capacity of 12,000 to 15,000 people per hour in one direction?

If you have a 737 land every 3min that's 4000-6000 per hour arrivals for which PT rail will be happy to get 30-35%.

Try 4 (maybe even 3) trains per hour on start up with future expansion to 6 trains/h.

Then what's the point when the Skybus leaves every 10 minutes all day from around 6am till midnight.

https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable/

The proposed rail service would actually offer a less frequent, less timely, therefore less convenient service to the airport.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Mike
The train is mass transport, not personal transport. You don't run a train capable of moving +1000 people per movement with less than 100 people per train. And no, you also don't run the airport train around the clock just because the airport is open 24/7. 16-18hr a day max.

The same argument applies to rail all over the country, with the exception of the core suburban networks, buses could run more frequent and in some cases faster than rail can ever offer. If we use the Skybus argument, shut down V/line, Countrylink and QR Country services and most regional services tomorrow along with the odd suburban branch and others truncated.

Brisabane Airport train runs every 15min most of the time and previously mostly 30min, its only 15km from the city, still managed to move +1mpa despite the fact the bus trip option is there.

Fact is most people will wait 10-15min for a train easy over taking a bus that leaves immediately, even if its slightly cheaper.

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