Any regional Victorian stations deserving of closure?

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
6. Taradale isn't growing, nor should it be, if people want a cold area with trees, then can live in Kyenton, Castlemaine or Woodend.
7. Taradale definitly doesn't deserve a re-opening.
8. I have only ever seen 3 or 4 souls ever get off/on at little river, Pyramid hill seems a bit odd, I've only seen 8 or 9 pax get off at Yarragon, and I don't think I've seen anyone use Stratford station, at all.
9. The stations are still quiet, and people using way busier stations would much prefer if they could get to their desto sooner.
stooge spark

Fortunately we do NOT live in a dictatorship and people are free to live wherever they choose. Are you saying Taradale should have no more new residents and then when the last person there dies or moves away then it should become a ghost town because we want people to live in the larger nearby towns and in an earlier posting you recommend potential pax drive up to 20 minutes in the opposite direction to Castlemaine to catch their train.

If you polled the pax on trains serving the towns on a given line...say Gippsland and said the government is considering closing Darnum for example so your train will arrive in Melbourne 2 minutes earlier. Would you seriously consider that the selfish pax will say...that's great we have a 2 minute faster journey...but the people of Darnum and surrounding catchment lose their train service.
Most people would agree that Darnum deserves its service and the extra 2 minutes travel time is insignificant.

It seems to me you consider Pyramid Hill and the even smaller Dingee don't deserve the train to be stopping there. So by definition you advocate for the Swan Hill train to run express from Kerang to Eaglehawk, a distance of over 130Km and bypassing the catchment areas of all that distance...just to save 4 minutes.

Mike.

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  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
So by definition you advocate for the Swan Hill train to run express from Kerang to Eaglehawk, a distance of over 130Km and bypassing the catchment areas of all that distance...just to save 4 minutes.

Mike.
The Vinelander
The 80km/h Express!. What a grand old train it would be Laughing

BG
  stooge spark Train Controller

[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Stratford is very close to the decent sized town of Maffra [/font][/size][/color][i][color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]plus[/font][/size][/color][/i][color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,] it's the only stop on the very long stretch between Sale and Bairnsdale, [/font][/size][/color][i][color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]plus[/font][/size][/color][/i][color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,] trains already have to slow down to walking pace for the high rickety bridge[/font][/size][/color]

[color=#000000][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, Segoe UI, Segoe, Segoe WP, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=2]1. While Sale isn't closer to Maffra, it is closer overall to Melbourne, so its argueably preferable to go there.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, Segoe UI, Segoe, Segoe WP, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=2]2. Because its not like a train has toilets, water fountains, and in some cases, a cafe bar.[/size][/font][/color]
[color=#000000][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, Segoe UI, Segoe, Segoe WP, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=2]3. Isn't the bridge getting an upgrade though? Or is that a different one?[/size][/font][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]That said, once the last classes have concluded at Deakin - Sherwood Park in a months time, I wouldn't object to Stooge running a dozer through the place.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]And I am happy that you don't object.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Wandong/Heathcote Junction. Both stations are very sub-standard from an infrastructure and passenger amenities perspective. Both have an accessibility problem with the adjoining standard gauge track and the sensible thing to do is close both and resite a new Wandong station south of the existing station and utilize the relatively modern pedestrian overpass to address safety and accessibility issues and provide a station with decent amenity. Effectively flip the existing station so you can access the existing car-park and still provide access to Wandong township and still be in close proximity to HJ.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]The Hj to Wandong section seems a little complex for a station, earlier in this thread it was mentioned that a train would have an easier time and would be much faster if it just stopped at HJ, rather then only stopping at Wandong, HJ isn't in that good of a position when it comes to shops.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Dingee/Pyramid Hill - Here the factors of isolation, effectively [b]no other other transport services[b] and the surrounding network i would say keep them.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Pyramid and Dingee can still get coaches to them.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]The political factors are probably the most relevant here. The last few state elections have been won and lost around public / other transport issues. The Labour party's build it and they will come approach to RFR worked a treat and it would be political suicide to start closing stations now.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, Segoe UI, Segoe, Segoe WP, Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif][size=2]I'm not that good at politics, but would closing stations in safe seats (I.E. Oven valley and Euroa) also be political suicide?[/size][/font][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Fortunately we do NOT live in a dictatorship and people are free to live wherever they choose.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Of course they can, It's just not ideal to live in such a small town.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Are you saying Taradale should have no more new residents and then when the last person there dies or moves away then it should become a ghost town because we want people to live in the larger nearby towns and in an earlier posting you recommend potential pax drive up to 20 minutes in the opposite direction to Castlemaine to catch their train.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]It's best that Taradale doesn't get too many residents, and it's much better to move to bigger towns because me of the infrastructure is already there, so you don't have to travel as much to get to shops.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Most people would agree that Darnum deserves its service and the extra 2 minutes travel time is insignificant.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Well Darnum is already closed, is pretty small and is within 10km of Warragul.[/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]It seems to me you consider Pyramid Hill and the even smaller Dingee don't deserve the train to be stopping there. So by definition you advocate for the Swan Hill train to run express from Kerang to Eaglehawk, a distance of over 130Km and bypassing the catchment areas of all that distance...just to save 4 minutes. [/font][/size][/color]


[color=#000000][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI,]Keep in mind the catchment has low population, and the time saved is probably more then 4 minutes.[/font][/size][/color]
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Corio.

That is all.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Stooge, mate, I'm not sure what you're doing, but all that formatting code makes your posts unreadable. I'm interested in what you have to say, so perhaps you could try less text formatting, less quotes AND inspect how your post looks after you've hit the 'submit' button and then editing your post if necessary. Thanks. Smile
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Corio.

That is all.
Gman_86
Corio is (mostly) a low income area and a regular train service helps people escape the poverty trap and easily travel elsewhere if they want to. On that basis, having a station in Corio with frequent train services does more "public good" (for want of a better term) than a station with the same patronage in a higher income suburb.

Plus, the station serves a rather posh school with thousands of students 1 km away.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Noting the Tynong and Nar Nar Goon are suggested, I would go further to suggest that the area could be looked at more largely.   I suggest that Garfield be rebuilt with platforms the right length and potentially just out of the town on the Up side to allow for development of car parks (an at the top of the grade).  Close Nar Nar Goon, Tynong and Bunyip.   Longwarry would probably survive.  

The area has a good road adjacent to the railway and the option for commuters to travel forward and backward is good.  

The current 4km pattern of stopping ('stop all sheds') is ridiculous.  From both an absolute need and a timetable utilisation of rolling stock too.
skitz
There Is zero chance of any Government closing any stations between Drouin and Pakenham !

All the towns are well within the commuter belt, with new houses putting up all over the place.

The only way to get Traralgon trains to run express along the flat plains In that section, Is If V/Line somehow manages to establish Warragul local services ? they may need to be shuttles terminating at ether Pakenham or Dandenong.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Just a few more things:

Re: Heathcote Junc and Wandong.

Yes, theoretically you could close both, and replace them with a new Wandong station adjacent to the new pedestrian overpass, but that would cost money, several million in fact. And then their is the possible political backlash. All to save what? 2 minutes on a 90 minute journey? Yeah that doesn't fly, sorry.


Re: Stratford.

Yes, the old rickety bridge is over-due for replacement, it has long been life expired, funding was provided in the last state budget, so it will happen.

However, trains need to slow regardless of whether they are stopping at the station, due to a tight curve.

Again, add the potential for negative political backlash.

Again, to save what? 2 minutes on a 3.5 hour journey? Is that worth it? Really? I don't think so.


Re: Taradale and Elphinstone

There would be some benefit in re-opening one of these. They are both small towns yes, and like with Malmsbury not all trains would be required to stop there, but between both towns, there would almost be enough people to make it worthwhile. Add to that the fact that they are both located within a crossing loop, plenty of trains have to stop anyway.

However, While I can't speak for the political situation in those towns, I don't hear a massive call for their stations to be re-instated. The cost wouldn't be cheap, a few million at least, and the current situation seems to work well. So I guess the status quo remains.

Re: Dingee and Pyramid

Proof that just looking at local population figures is irrelevant. These stations provide the only train stop for quite some distance. Yes the villages they are in are tiny, but there are hundreds of farms and other nearby villages that would be within their catchment area. Again, as Vinelander said, what is the total benefit in closing them down? A couple of minutes saved on a 3.5 hour journey. Not worth the trouble it would cause.

Re: Corio

Does anybody actually use this inhospitable dump? I mean you wouldn't dare park your car there, or wait too long there. It isn't near any houses, yet every 2nd Geelong line train stops here. Why? Close it, don't demolish it, just don't stop there anymore. Come back to it later if the need arises. That really is the only one I can see being worth closing.

Every time I have been through there it has been deserted, the car park has been empty, and it seems to be very close to North Shore which gets more use. If I am wrong about Corio, please tell me.
  stooge spark Train Controller

Stooge, mate, I'm not sure what you're doing, but all that formatting code makes your posts unreadable. I'm interested in what you have to say, so perhaps you could try less text formatting, less quotes AND inspect how your post looks after you've hit the 'submit' button and then editing your post if necessary. Thanks. Smile
Bogong
I'm not sure whats causing the issue, it might something to do with copy+pasting posts though, but i'm not sure how to deal with it seeing as the codes don't show up in editing. I would like insight in how to remove the coding though.
  A4000Bear Junior Train Controller

Location: Taradale, Vic
It's not wise going on the town's population alone. In the case of Malmsbury, on many occasions when I caught the train from there, as many as half the passengers were from Taradale. Itself a town with a closed station. It's quite likely there are passengers from Elphinstone too, also with a closed station.
Taradale and Elphinstone residents can just use Castlemaine.
stooge spark
You have obviously never driven to Castlemaine from Taradale. It takes 25 minutes and it's in the wrong direction for catching a train to Melbourne. When I was catching trains from Malmsbury in the morning there was usually between 12 to 20 other passengers waiting too. Even at non-peak times there are almost always about half a dozen people waiting for a train. Not busy, but not too bad.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Merging Wandong and Heathcote Junction will make sense and spending $6m or $7m to do it when both those facilities will be required to be substantially upgraded as the infrastructure finally requirees replacement and DDA compliance regime becomes even more stringent.   That's a mandated requirement that transport authourities and other have been able to wriggle around a bit with but as a target year is reached and a higher percentage of compliant facilities are manadated there will be a requirement to do something and that's not many years away.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Noting the Tynong and Nar Nar Goon are suggested, I would go further to suggest that the area could be looked at more largely.   I suggest that Garfield be rebuilt with platforms the right length and potentially just out of the town on the Up side to allow for development of car parks (an at the top of the grade).  Close Nar Nar Goon, Tynong and Bunyip.   Longwarry would probably survive.  

The area has a good road adjacent to the railway and the option for commuters to travel forward and backward is good.  

The current 4km pattern of stopping ('stop all sheds') is ridiculous.  From both an absolute need and a timetable utilisation of rolling stock too.
There Is zero chance of any Government closing any stations between Drouin and Pakenham !

All the towns are well within the commuter belt, with new houses putting up all over the place.

The only way to get Traralgon trains to run express along the flat plains In that section, Is If V/Line somehow manages to establish Warragul local services ? they may need to be shuttles terminating at ether Pakenham or Dandenong.
Nightfire
I do actually agree with there being zero chance of closing one.

Yes, a local service originating at Warragul is the go.  As is a pick-up service from Traralgon to Warragul, then express to Pakenham.  Combine and one path through the slow, and always damned to be slow, metro system.  

The clever use of timetabling will achieve most outcomes.  There is also the use of both tracks in the same direction to consider.

(and I don't want to hear about detraining passengers to combine set, its perfectly practicable to do so.  Practicable, V/line and unions are not words to use in one sentence.  Oh, wait.)

Then there is the topic of not having country trains run through Metro services at Dandenong, Westall, Oakleigh, Caulfield.   Where is the will when we don't even use the facilities we already have?
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Has v/line or unions ever given a reason for why passenger have to detrain to join sets.  
I can only presume the reason is the slight bump may cause an elderly lady to fall and break a hip.

I would like to see an hourly proper express SC to tralalgon stopping only at the major stops, with another hourly smaller local service from dandenong express to pakenham then all stops to tralalgon.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Has v/line or unions ever given a reason for why passenger have to detrain to join sets.  
I can only presume the reason is the slight bump may cause an elderly lady to fall and break a hip.

I would like to see an hourly proper express SC to tralalgon stopping only at the major stops, with another hourly smaller local service from dandenong express to pakenham then all stops to tralalgon.
tazzer96
One only has to compare the risk of riding a tram compared to coupling a velocity to realise they are on very different pages.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Listing stations as "candidates" based on immediate population is quite deceptive. As The Vinelander remarked, Clarkefield serves a wider district; there are also long-term plans that I am privy to that would make it a more significant station.
hbedriver
No doubt linked to one of the Airport line proposals.

That aside, yes Clarkefield itself is tiny, but it serves Romsey and Lancefield, plenty of parking and without the hassle of going right into Sunbury. Not to mention the watering hole for a refreshing drink on the way home.
  DALEK Locomotive Fireman

Corio Station has no connecting bus services at all. It is at least 1KM from any houses (so not walking distance) and the car park seems to be empty all of the time.
There is a bus service that runs from  Corio to North Shore Station, and the same goes for Lara. By the looks of things, if the station was to close, it wouldn't effect many people and there are already alternative options.
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

Corio usually has several passengers, even late at night. Workers from the refinery for example. Also seem to have "normal" folk, as well as what some here seem to assume are feral etc. Still, even ferals need to get around, often for "business reasons", and the State as a whole is better off if they catch a train than drive while under the influence of various substances, legal and otherwise!

Gippsland line; those short stops etc really annoy me too, but to be fair the trains lose far more time in Metro-land. Best way to speed up those trains is for track amplification on the Up side of Pakenham, also better signalling around Pakenham itself, ideally with at least one more platform. Too many times a Down train follows a late spark all the way from Dandenong to Pakenham, then in turn blocks an up Traralgon; Metro then allow a spark out in front, because the Up VLP train approached Pakenham late. Even without those delays, you can still get crucified; I got into Pakenham 2 early one evening, arrived into Melbourne 20 late, all from following a spark which they departed two minutes after I arrived at PKM.

The regularly attach loaded trains at Ballarat. Beats me why they don't do so elsewhere. Not aware of any Union concerns, certainly not from drivers.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Listing stations as "candidates" based on immediate population is quite deceptive. As The Vinelander remarked, Clarkefield serves a wider district; there are also long-term plans that I am privy to that would make it a more significant station.
No doubt linked to one of the Airport line proposals.

That aside, yes Clarkefield itself is tiny, but it serves Romsey and Lancefield, plenty of parking and without the hassle of going right into Sunbury. Not to mention the watering hole for a refreshing drink on the way home.
mikesyd
Possibly electrification extension to clarkfield?  It would be a good idea if there was quadding between clarkfield and watergardens to support separation of regional trains from metro stops.  

The only way I can see clarkfield being a direct part of an airport line is if all bendigo trains (along with new short runners) took a new route from clarkfield to the city via the airport.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Possibly electrification extension to clarkfield?  It would be a good idea if there was quadding between clarkfield and watergardens to support separation of regional trains from metro stops.  

The only way I can see clarkfield being a direct part of an airport line is if all bendigo trains (along with new short runners) took a new route from clarkfield to the city via the airport.
tazzer96
This has been discussed on RP before, the idea would be to electrify to Clarkefield and run V/line from Clarkefield on a new alignment via the airport and then on to SC.

Can't see it happening until at least Metro 1 tunnel is completed due to pathing issues.

Quadding Clarkie to WG can't realistically be done due to the huge earthworks that would be required on the Down side of Sunbury plus a complete rebuild of Sunbury station and surrounds and would have to end at WG as you say or Keilor Plains as the recent LXRA works at Ginifer and St Albans made no provision for it so you would still end up with a bottleneck from Albion to wherever the quadding began.

BG
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I got into Pakenham 2 early one evening, arrived into Melbourne 20 late, all from following a spark which they departed two minutes after I arrived at PKM.
hbedriver

My mate, a long standing V/Line driver who unfortunately died just before Christmas last year used to regularly talk to train control when he felt there was a chance of the spark being held, particularly at Pakenham on the UP if he was a few mins late. I believe the controllers would give him 4 mins, that is, the spark would depart if his V/Line train was more than 4 late on arrival at Pakenham.

I don't know if my mate was tolerated by train controllers or if they are cool with drivers speaking to them to explain a situation...or conversely inquire why a particular signal was red when the road ahead was clear...say after a cross and there didn't appear to be a reason why the stick was still red.

Mike.
  ath Junior Train Controller

My understanding is that Malmsbury was kept open in the 80's when the 'New Deal' closures were happening due to a requirement for public transport to serve the Youth Justice Centre in the town. Still a fair way to walk from the station though.
  skitz Chief Commissioner

Possibly electrification extension to clarkfield?  It would be a good idea if there was quadding between clarkfield and watergardens to support separation of regional trains from metro stops.  

The only way I can see clarkfield being a direct part of an airport line is if all bendigo trains (along with new short runners) took a new route from clarkfield to the city via the airport.
This has been discussed on RP before, the idea would be to electrify to Clarkefield and run V/line from Clarkefield on a new alignment via the airport and then on to SC.

Can't see it happening until at least Metro 1 tunnel is completed due to pathing issues.

Quadding Clarkie to WG can't realistically be done due to the huge earthworks that would be required on the Down side of Sunbury plus a complete rebuild of Sunbury station and surrounds and would have to end at WG as you say or Keilor Plains as the recent LXRA works at Ginifer and St Albans made no provision for it so you would still end up with a bottleneck from Albion to wherever the quadding began.

BG
BrentonGolding
Why do people assume that pathing is the killer on account of the Metro 1 project?  The same excuse was used for Rowville not being viable due to no paths into Caulfield.   Yet, the skyrail gets built with no realistic practical capacity and what have we got?

Likewise the new RRL tracks and Geelong traffic.  We have two extra tracks and now saying there is no room?  What gives?  What happened before the new RRL tracks were open?   The capacity via Newport must still exist to some degree?   Is there any improvement for the billions?   Some would say there is not, then its a massive failure?

Any airport service that involves Sunbury (Sunbury airport loop) would surely be extension to current services?   Build it.  Just build it.

What is the real truth in all this without the assumptions and myths?
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Why do people assume that pathing is the killer on account of the Metro 1 project?  The same excuse was used for Rowville not being viable due to no paths into Caulfield.   Yet, the skyrail gets built with no realistic practical capacity and what have we got?

Likewise the new RRL tracks and Geelong traffic.  We have two extra tracks and now saying there is no room?  What gives?  What happened before the new RRL tracks were open?   The capacity via Newport must still exist to some degree?   Is there any improvement for the billions?   Some would say there is not, then its a massive failure?

Any airport service that involves Sunbury (Sunbury airport loop) would surely be extension to current services?   Build it.  Just build it.

What is the real truth in all this without the assumptions and myths?
skitz
Beuracracy and politics.

We have lost our ability to just do something, now we are ruled by the beauracrats. RRL was built on the line of seperating the V/Line and Metro trains, therefore it would go against some irrelevant statement made years ago to send occasional V/line trains via Newport.

Yes, It would make a lot of sense, from an operational point of view it would be brilliant, and from a customer service point of view it would provide a huge improvement. Those things don't matter anymore, not now that we have the beuracrats in charge.

Sad, but that is the reality we must live with for now.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Merging Wandong and Heathcote Junction will make sense and spending $6m or $7m to do it when both those facilities will be required to be substantially upgraded as the infrastructure finally requirees replacement and DDA compliance regime becomes even more stringent.   That's a mandated requirement that transport authourities and other have been able to wriggle around a bit with but as a target year is reached and a higher percentage of compliant facilities are manadated there will be a requirement to do something and that's not many years away.
Trainplanner
Wandong Station has had a bit of coin spent on It In resent years upgrading the platforms and car parking.
  MetroFemme Chief Train Controller

Corio might just be the only passenger interchange point between The broad and standard gauge so closing this might remove some options especially if standard gauge is built from Ballarat to Ararat meaning as mentioned in previous contributions the Overland starts running again via Ballarat

Have I got this right from a beginner?

I never really worked out why sunshine was not rebuilt with the standard gauge platform allowing interchange from Sydney and Albury services with Ballarat and Bendigo services. Seems rather stupid.

I believe corio and Ararat are currently the only stops where interchange can happen?

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