‘Redesign is underway’ on faster VLocity trains for the North East

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 18 Oct 2017 16:12
  N463 Locomotive Driver

I doubt that Echuca will be served by the new variant, given that v/l trains already run there.
steve195
The Echuca line is primarily a Echuca-Bendigo commuter service anyway. There aren't that many people from north of Bendigo who continue on beyond Bendigo.

N463

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  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

I would look at the following:

  • A five car set (I call them: A-B-C-D-E) with three powered cars (A,C,E) and two trailer cars (B,D)
  • The powered cars would weigh 60 tons each and have 1,000hp (same as the WA Prospector)
  • The trailer cars weigh 40 tons each. So total weight is 260 tons. 3000hp/260 tons = 11.5 hp to the ton
  • This should be more than sufficient to run at 130kph across the entire network.
  • Plus it could still do 160kph where the track permits. It may take slightly longer to reach 160kph,                                                        but that should not be a significant issue.
  • Additional crash protection for the driver can be built in. Up to the standard of the XPT so the train can                                                 go through an unprotected level crossing at 120kph. So only a minor change in speed for the train.
  • That last point is relevant to lesser used lines such as; Swan Hill, north of Bendigo.
Duncs
Trailer cars would mean 160km/h couldn't be obtained on much of the bendigo line except for at best a few minutes.   Best just to have everything powered, even if each cars indiviudal power is slightly less. It would also mean extra time to get to 130 elsewhere, ideally we should be pushing better acceleration over absolute top speed.  Allows for better timetabling in case of delays.  I don't agree with DMU's with trailer cars, just defeats the purpose of having a DMU.
They should be pushing increased crash protection but even with all of todays extra engineering knowledge, you won't get it to the same standard as the XPT without doubling the unit cost.   XPT was more or less designed for possible 200km/h impacts and its a locomotive, which is shorter and heavier than a Velocity.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Should First class be retained for the new long distance V/Line trains, if so, what should it look like in the future? I personally find the current version of V/Line 1st class is fairly underwhelming.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Should First class be retained for the new long distance V/Line trains, if so, what should it look like in the future? I personally find the current version of V/Line 1st class is fairly underwhelming.
Gman_86
By comparison, economy seating when shared with scrotes and ferals can be completely overwhelming!
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
True, its more the class of fellow patron than the class of amenity.

Still, if its going to be called 1st class, it should resemble some idea of what that means in the 21st century, it certainly doesn't at the moment.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
I'm fairly certain it's because the Long Distance Vlocities will operate first on the Warrnambool and Albury lines, and then will be introduced to Bairnsdale and Swan Hill later after signalling and level crossing upgrades. Echuca, Ararat, Maryborough, Shepparton can all be operated by regular services.
TOQ-1
I'm not sure that the assumption that VLocities will service all long distance lines is sound, at least in the medium term.

Sure, put them on the Class 2 Warrnambool and Albury lines, but you are wasting (and gaining zero) time operating them beyond Traralgon or Bendigo, to Bairnsdale and Swan Hill respectively, on Class 3 track.

Better off to construct a dedicated SG VLocity fleet for Albury or Wagga and convert the existing SG N-Set fleet back to BG for an enhanced service on the other lines. If my most recent experience is anything to go by, where an ordinary Up Bairnsdale service was booked out 2 days in advance (causing me to ditch the idea and drive instead of risking no seats available in Car D), more capacity is sorely needed for existing services.

I also find it a bit bemusing to consider the concept of replacing N-Sets when we still have H-sets running around!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Should First class be retained for the new long distance V/Line trains, if so, what should it look like in the future? I personally find the current version of V/Line 1st class is fairly underwhelming.
Gman_86

The N Class version of First Class was designed over 35 years ago Exclamation

Things have moved along somewhat in that time...

M.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
If i was VLine i would look to airlines and see what the yeild benefits are for first class vs not first class and act based on these results.

I would change the name of it to business class though - move away from the classist notions of the past and broaden the appeal.
  steve195 Train Controller

Should First class be retained for the new long distance V/Line trains, if so, what should it look like in the future? I personally find the current version of V/Line 1st class is fairly underwhelming.
Gman_86
That's one thing I'd happily leave to the bean counters. If a first class car would, on average, collect more fare revenue than if it were economy then it should be kept. Otherwise, don't bother.

If they do keep it though, they could certainly justify a ticket price hike by offering a higher quality service.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.

The N Class version of First Class was designed over 35 years ago Exclamation

Things have moved along somewhat in that time...

M.
The Vinelander
I would hazard a guess and assume that the design brief back then was simply to replicate the AZ cars.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
I would change the name of it to business class though - move away from the classist notions of the past and broaden the appeal.
james.au
To me, besides better seating, business class offers free meals and beverages served at your seat and an iPad loaded with movies!

If it was up to me, I would name it Premium. Not Premium Red or Premium Tangerine (!), simply Premium. This would compare more favourably with airlines that offer that product, and still provide a point of difference to passengers.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I would spend my time and effort improving the product rather than wasting energy renaming it.

First and Business are two separate things (1 and 2) on an aircraft and the opposite on European trains (2 and 1) where both are provided.

If you have a problem, fix it rather than the political expedient of simply renaming it or painting it another colour!
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
You need to start with what the point of difference between Standard and first class would be. Providing charging points at seats is quickly becoming an expected norm for all travelling, so this wouldn't be it. What it comes down to is what seating is provided. Given the Vlocities are already 2+2 seating with the same width as first class on the N sets, the only difference would be the padding, and maybe more leg room and fold down tables at every seat. Is increased padding going to be enough to charge a premium fare?
  steve195 Train Controller

Uber wide 2 + 1 seating? Blinds? Better noise insulation? Reclining seats?

I'm sure others will have better ideas.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Uber wide 2 + 1 seating? Blinds? Better noise insulation? Reclining seats?

I'm sure others will have better ideas.
steve195
Inter City  First Class for years has had reclining & rotating seats in First Class .

However major occupants in First Class  are  Penshos on Free Vouchers, PAHOS  (Passholders), and  Police who flash their  badge. So no real revenue from any of those  .  

Depends really on whether more Bussines people can be attracted to travel by train on the Inter City services. Those pax need fast travel times, to the seat catering and  Wi Fi  access etc .  Given VLP has dumbed down the Inter City services so much by inserting extra stops within the Inter urban area, that traffic is likely to eventuate .  Warrnmabool,  Swan Hill, Albury & Bairnsdale services are all now noticeably slower than they were 30 years ago .  In 1981 Warrnambool was 3 hrs 15 mins with B class and wooden bodied stock, today even before lx SR's it was 3 hrs 40 mins .
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

The N Class version of First Class was designed over 35 years ago Exclamation

Things have moved along somewhat in that time...

M.I would hazard a guess and assume that the design brief back then was simply to replicate the AZ cars.
DirtyBallast

In many ways the AZ cars were far superior to the N cars.

M.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

First Class is only available on some reserved services to and from Albury, Bairnsdale, Shepparton, Swan Hill and Warrnambool.
First Class carriages have meal trays and larger reclining seats with more leg room.
The seats are sectioned in groups of four and there are approximately 52 seats in each carriage, compared to 88 in economy.
PTV website

The first-class surcharge is $8. If a first-class carriage does two trips a day, eg down & up, and has an average 60% occupancy, it would generate approximately $180,000 in extra revenue over a year. This would be offset by the reduced carrying capacity, ie up to 36 less seats (88 - 52).
  woodford Chief Commissioner

First Class is only available on some reserved services to and from Albury, Bairnsdale, Shepparton, Swan Hill and Warrnambool.
First Class carriages have meal trays and larger reclining seats with more leg room.
The seats are sectioned in groups of four and there are approximately 52 seats in each carriage, compared to 88 in economy.

The first-class surcharge is $8. If a first-class carriage does two trips a day, eg down & up, and has an average 60% occupancy, it would generate approximately $180,000 in extra revenue over a year. This would be offset by the reduced carrying capacity, ie up to 36 less seats (88 - 52).
kitchgp
The first class car on the Albury train is always full, to get a seat in it one needs to book at least a week in advance.
Another significant group travelling in first class are those wishing to travel in a bit of peace and quiet.

On the Albury train only 4 first class seats are held those (such as VLine staff) not requiring a ticket

From conversations i have had with VLine station staff, also Centrelink staff VLIne DO get paid for those "free" voutures one gets issued with for those on a pension  card. I rarely use mine as one cannot just get one  a train using it.

woodford
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
If you have a problem, fix it rather than the political expedient of simply renaming it or painting it another colour!
"YM-Mundrabilla"
You crazy or something? That involves work.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
If you have a problem, fix it rather than the political expedient of simply renaming it or painting it another colour!
You crazy or something? That involves work.
Valvegear
Yep.
Probably dinosaurmentia !
Not only involves work, it also requires real world experience, honesty and integrity.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
If you have a problem, fix it rather than the political expedient of simply renaming it or painting it another colour!
You crazy or something? That involves work.
Yep.
Probably dinosaurmentia !
Not only involves work, it also requires real world experience, honesty and integrity.
YM-Mundrabilla
Not to mention $$$ spent for nil return in the hard hat photo op and press release department. After all Joe Pubiic has no interest in seeing a picture taken in front of a pile of old termite eaten sleepers and the pollies have even less interest in travelling out to whoop whoop to have it taken. They might get dirty or even worse see some real work being done!

BG
  steve195 Train Controller

Uber wide 2 + 1 seating? Blinds? Better noise insulation? Reclining seats?

I'm sure others will have better ideas.
Inter City  First Class for years has had reclining & rotating seats in First Class .

However major occupants in First Class  are  Penshos on Free Vouchers, PAHOS  (Passholders), and  Police who flash their  badge. So no real revenue from any of those  .  

Depends really on whether more Bussines people can be attracted to travel by train on the Inter City services. Those pax need fast travel times, to the seat catering and  Wi Fi  access etc .  Given VLP has dumbed down the Inter City services so much by inserting extra stops within the Inter urban area, that traffic is likely to eventuate .  Warrnmabool,  Swan Hill, Albury & Bairnsdale services are all now noticeably slower than they were 30 years ago .  In 1981 Warrnambool was 3 hrs 15 mins with B class and wooden bodied stock, today even before lx SR's it was 3 hrs 40 mins .
kuldalai
The travel times you mention do bring up a very important point: with new rolling stock and infrastructure investment, it is a perfect time for PTV/Vline to totally revamp inter city travel.

Track and LX upgrades, combined with DMU's that can travel at 160 on RFR lines, should result in significant time savings. If the stopping patterns were more appropriate (e.g. Warrnambool trains run express Winchelsea to Geelong and Geelong to Sunshine) further time savings could be achieved.

These faster, more comfortable and (hopefully) more reliable services can then be marketed to both tourists and business travellers. I'm just speculating, but there would have to be a market for inter urban commuters who would be willing to pay extra to reserve a seat on a faster service (e.g. reserve a seat for Traralgon - Melbourne on a Bairnsdale service that runs express Moe - Dandenong). Of course you may not want this to become too popular, as inter urban commuters could fill up trains and prevent actual inter city travellers from getting a seat.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I would add in Wauran Ponds so saving having to drive into Geelong station. But otherwise I would agree with you.
  cabidass Chief Train Controller

Covered in other threads a few months ago. V'locity carriages are being redesigned for 'long haul'.
cabidass

https://www.railpage.com.au/f-p2069137.htm#2069137

It would be fantastic if there is someone in the know who can share the 'broader vision' of what is trying to be achieved, and of which the government is paying to execute.



your broomstick awaits your departure.....
trainbrain

Ok Tinkerbell
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

All I can say is that something needs to be done to replace the rolling stock for Albury services. No wonder Bill Traill is complaining. I for one entirely agree with him having just completed a return journey from there.

The train I had traveled in was filthy inside and out. It had taken 35 mins to get from Southern Cross to Broadmeadows, which is all of 17 kilometres and takes nearly 4 hours to travel 300 kms. It is ridiculous. It must be disheartening for Albury customers pulling in to Melbourne in dirty 1980's carriages pulled by an ancient N Class loco, seeing on other platforms new sleek 160km V/locities operating services to Geelong.

Michael

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