Gresley Location NSW

 
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Gresley Location

NSW Rail, http://www.nswrail.net/locations/show.php?name=NSW:Gresley shows a WWII era temporary crossing location named Gresley between Deepwater and Bolivia.  It is stated to be at 731.000 Km. From looking at maps I decided an area which seemed most likely due to a significant straight roughly half way between Deepwater and Bolivia. This not where the NSW Rail map fragment indicates. The Grade and Curve diagram at   http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/infrastructure/003/document/ see http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/46010316/in/album/1034838 (P227 of the document) shows the location I guessed as the straight on the 1/75 grade shortly before the high point between Deepwater and Bolivia. Converting the miles on the diagram agrees with the 731.000Km  from NSW Rail. My initial curiosity about this location came from the 2017 part of this thread https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11362177.htm

On two recent trips to Tamworth I visited the area until accompanying family insisted it was time to continue the journey. The first visit included finding a culvert marked with 730.???Km  http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993394/in/album/1034838 which told me I was where I wanted to be. Also the terrain didn’t contradict the aforementioned high point, and the track from Deepwater has the correct curve http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993392/in/album/1034838 . On the second visit I walked a little way south from the location and found a culvert marked 730.581 http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/46018122 .

The location included the usual for this line perway concrete markers http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993464/in/album/1034838 & http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993468/in/album/1034838 . Two other constructions are interesting. First I found a piece of rail as a post which is still painted except for an area which may have a sign such as ‘Shunt Limit’  http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993400/in/album/1034838 & http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993398/in/album/1034838  This is towards the southern or Up end of the location. The second is a concrete block in the ground further north which I speculate could have been a ground frame foundation/base http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993426/in/album/1034838 . Suggestions of alternative explanations welcomed.

Along the eastern side of the track there is a vague ground shape which could be old formation with a drain on its eastern side. This is most noticeable at the730.???Km  culvert http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993462/in/album/1034838  and further north at a small bridge structure. http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993430/in/album/1034838  http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993432/in/album/1034838  http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993434/in/album/1034838   (no Kms visible here). I didn’t notice any sleeper-shaped depressions in the ground or stray dog spikes on or about this formation though I didn’t put much time into it.

Beyond the bridge the siding works appear to follow the terrain where the main track rises above the terrain on an embankment.
http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993490/in/album/1034838 . In the same area as the siding works end the eastern fence line makes a right angled zig zag bringing it closer to the track  http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993496/in/album/1034838 . Also in this area is a culvert marked with 731.606Kms  http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993518/in/album/1034838  & http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993522/in/album/1034838. This is from the eastern side which has no sign of having been duplicated. View from the west showing same culvert and embankment, curiously showing a 1 metre difference http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993528/in/album/1034838 .


Dense vegetation growing in the track prevents visibility further north http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993512/in/album/1034838 & http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/45993506/in/album/1034838

There is plenty more I’d like to check out on future visits.

This set http://www.ipernity.com/doc/grahamh/album/1034838?with=45993526 has all my Gresley photos.

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  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Quote :

"until accompanying family insisted it was time to continue the journey"


Sigh, they just don't understand........  I hope you repaid their patience and that in return you will be granted a "leave pass" for future such explorations. Don't forget to watch out for snakes and other wildlife that don't like being disturbed.


Great work.
  CPH8 Locomotive Fireman

Looking at my edition of Station Names - date of opening, closing and/or change of name, first published by the Public Transport Commission of NSW in 1965 - my copy third edition May 1965, I see that there is a Greenley listed at 729.200 km, opened on 13 April 1942 and closed on 21 January 1944. Could this be the same place?
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
There were several wartime loops on the main north, built but never actually opened.

The "long" section Electric Train Staffs would have been replaced by "short section" Ordinary Train Staff.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The Gresley loop can be found on the ARHS T&SV4 DVD. However the program does not appear to be able to print the Gresley diagram. The "Shut-down" button in the "Power" menu has also disappeared.

The Gresley crossing facility is only about 900ft long, but "headshunts" at both ends of allow 1319ft trains to cross, so long at the crossed train uses the loop+headshunt.

These headshunts appear to allow the points (crossovers in reality) to be located on straight track. It is possible that the headshunts minimise earthworks, as the headshunts need not be made at the same level as the main line.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The Gresley loop can be found on the ARHS T&SV4 DVD. However the program does not appear to be able to print the Gresley diagram. The "Shut-down" button in the "Power" menu has also disappeared.

The Gresley crossing facility is only about 900ft long, but "headshunts" at both ends of allow 1319ft trains to cross, so long at the crossed train uses the loop+headshunt.

These headshunts appear to allow the points (crossovers in reality) to be located on straight track. It is possible that the headshunts minimise earthworks, as the headshunts need not be made at the same level as the main line.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Looking at my edition of Station Names - date of opening, closing and/or change of name, first published by the Public Transport Commission of NSW in 1965 - my copy third edition May 1965, I see that there is a Greenley listed at 729.200 km, opened on 13 April 1942 and closed on 21 January 1944. Could this be the same place?
CPH8
In my opinion, yes.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
The Gresley loop can be found on the ARHS T&SV4 DVD. However the program does not appear to be able to print the Gresley diagram. The "Shut-down" button in the "Power" menu has also disappeared.

The Gresley crossing facility is only about 900ft long, but "headshunts" at both ends of allow 1319ft trains to cross, so long at the crossed train uses the loop+headshunt.

These headshunts appear to allow the points (crossovers in reality) to be located on straight track. It is possible that the headshunts minimise earthworks, as the headshunts need not be made at the same level as the main line.
awsgc24
Thanks for the info. Are you able to sketch the track layout with lengths and scan or photograph to display it?

On site there was apparently a long head shunt at the northern/Down end. The points/crossover would have to have been before the small bridge.

At the Up end there could have been points close to the end of the straight. The concrete foundation nearer to the middle is a bit of a puzzle. The photos looking unto the curve don't seem to me to indicate the siding extending past the end of the straight, rather that it finished a bit before. Possibly the sign, missing from the post, indicated when a full length Up train had cleared the main? If so it may be able to be used to identify other places.

The identified places are the culvert ~100-150m into the curve at the Up end at 730.581Km, and the culvert past the Down end at 731.606Km. This approaches 800-900m as the maximum available length. Well able to fit a 300m loop and two 140m head shunts.

I've just found that on my screen here 1 mile on the Grade & Curve image is 18mm, hence 1mm = 100yds. The straight measures 11mm and so ~= 1000m which ties in with the separation of the marked culverts. (I remember some doubtful Km IDs from my time at Train Radio Smile ).
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Quote :

"until accompanying family insisted it was time to continue the journey"

Sigh, they just don't understand........  I hope you repaid their patience and that in return you will be granted a "leave pass" for future such explorations. Don't forget to watch out for snakes and other wildlife that don't like being disturbed.

Great work.
mikesyd
Thanks Mike. One thing I noticed was a lack of insects and spider webs, and little bird life. I've done enough attending of infrequently visited comms huts to watch for the hazards.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The Gresley loop can be found on the ARHS T&SV4 DVD. However the program does not appear to be able to print the Gresley diagram. The "Shut-down" button in the "Power" menu has also disappeared.

The Gresley crossing facility is only about 900ft long, but "headshunts" at both ends of allow 1319ft trains to cross, so long at the crossed train uses the loop+headshunt.

These headshunts appear to allow the points (crossovers in reality) to be located on straight track. It is possible that the headshunts minimise earthworks, as the headshunts need not be made at the same level as the main line.
awsgc24
Looking at the T&SV4 diagram (33732.pdf), the actual length of the loop is 719 feet, not 900 feet as reported before.

A 1319 feet long train has to "see-saw" into the facing headshunt, then see-say into the trailing headshunt.

The signal box theoretically at the centre of the loop is 454 1/4 miles plus 285 feet.

The "measured sketch" (33733.pdf) is a copy of the main plan above with measurements of various items presumably taken with a "rota" measuring wheel. A modern Rota wheel is basically the same of the wheel used to measure distances of say shot put at the Olympics, with two extra guide to stop the Rota wheel falling off the top of the rail.

The "Measured Sketch" mentioned above is strange, because the name "Gresley" in the Title Block, while the short OTS staff sections are omitted completely. This would be consistent with the name of this new loop being uncertain, with no firm descesion on calling the loop "Greenfield". Station names need to be chosen to avoid clashes with other existing station:
* Greenfield ; Green Swamp Road, Greenbank
* Gresley . . ; Gresham
Go figure.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
The Gresley loop can be found on the ARHS T&SV4 DVD. However the program does not appear to be able to print the Gresley diagram. The "Shut-down" button in the "Power" menu has also disappeared.

The Gresley crossing facility is only about 900ft long, but "headshunts" at both ends of allow 1319ft trains to cross, so long at the crossed train uses the loop+headshunt.

These headshunts appear to allow the points (crossovers in reality) to be located on straight track. It is possible that the headshunts minimise earthworks, as the headshunts need not be made at the same level as the main line.
Looking at the T&SV4 diagram (33732.pdf), the actual length of the loop is 719 feet, not 900 feet as reported before.

A 1319 feet long train has to "see-saw" into the facing headshunt, then see-say into the trailing headshunt.

The signal box theoretically at the centre of the loop is 454 1/4 miles plus 285 feet.

The "measured sketch" (33733.pdf) is a copy of the main plan above with measurements of various items presumably taken with a "rota" measuring wheel. A modern Rota wheel is basically the same of the wheel used to measure distances of say shot put at the Olympics, with two extra guide to stop the Rota wheel falling off the top of the rail.

The "Measured Sketch" mentioned above is strange, because the name "Gresley" in the Title Block, while the short OTS staff sections are omitted completely. This would be consistent with the name of this new loop being uncertain, with no firm descesion on calling the loop "Greenfield". Station names need to be chosen to avoid clashes with other existing station:
* Greenfield ; Green Swamp Road, Greenbank
* Gresley . . ; Gresham
Go figure.
awsgc24
Thanks for the information. Ok so we have a good idea of what the track should be. Before I'm there next time, when ever that should be, I'll draw a probable layout and see how it matches what is there. At this stage each end appears to be visible and that can be paced for an approximate length. Other features can then be looked for using the dimensions you've given. You mention a signal box. Does you info say/hint about being signaller operated or driver operated?

WRT the name, CPH8's document has a different name. Maybe because the documents are not of the 1940s they were based to some degree of verbal descriptions, for example, from a Perway Engineer or a Ganger a decade or two after the events.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Thanks for the info. Are you able to sketch the track layout with lengths and scan or photograph to display it?
GrahamH
Can file 33732.pdf (Gresley circular) be uploaded to RP.

Can RP display .pdf files?

Adobe Reader can read these .pdf files directly.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Thanks for the info. Are you able to sketch the track layout with lengths and scan or photograph to display it?
Can file 33732.pdf (Gresley circular) be uploaded to RP.

Can RP display .pdf files?

Adobe Reader can read these .pdf files directly.
awsgc24
As far as I know only image formats can be displayed. I assume you have a Windows PC/laptop.

Can you display the information on the screen and then the using  key and the  function key (or other key labelled  ) simultaneously. This copies the entire screen in the same way that the normal copy part of copy and paste works. Then open MS Paint and paste the screen image into it and save it as a .jpg  to the pictures folder or desktop. Alternatively take a photo or series of photos of the screen showing the info. Then transfer and save to your computer as above. If you choose to get a free Flickr site you could upload them there and paste a link to them here. Alternatively send me a Private Message and I'll reply with an email address which you can use to send them to me as attachments. I will the display them in the Gresley album in my Ipernity account and link them here as I have done with my photos. If you have any problem with this let me know.

Another method would be to print the .pdf and them scan or take photos of the paper so making .jpg s.

There is no rush as I wont be going there again until sometime in the new year.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
There is plenty of free software available to convert the pages of a PDF file to jpegs. Alternatively upload the PDF to a folder with public access on Google Drive, One Drive, Dropbox (or similar) and post a link on RP.
  NSWRcars Chief Train Controller

Thanks for the info. Are you able to sketch the track layout with lengths and scan or photograph to display it?
GrahamH
I have PMed you for further information.
The "Measurement Sketch" is a working plan that pre-dates opening of the loop. It has distances measured towards Werris Ck from the northern or Up Landmark, which is the reverse of convention, and of course the final plans that were prepared from it. It shows all the structures that were found on your trip, the location of the summit, and I'm guessing the sign post you photographed was a Clearance Post. Measurements should verify.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Thanks for the info. Are you able to sketch the track layout with lengths and scan or photograph to display it?
I have PMed you for further information.
The "Measurement Sketch" is a working plan that pre-dates opening of the loop. It has distances measured towards Werris Ck from the northern or Up Landmark, which is the reverse of convention, and of course the final plans that were prepared from it. It shows all the structures that were found on your trip, the location of the summit, and I'm guessing the sign post you photographed was a Clearance Post. Measurements should verify.
NSWRcars
PM reply sent.
  GrahamH Chief Commissioner

Location: At a terminal on the www.
Drawing pdfs received, thanks NSWRcars.

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