So what's going to replace coal?

 

Pinned post created by dthead

Posted 2 years ago

  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Trapped in a meeting with Rhonda and Karsten
I suppose the question is not much should it have been closed (it should have at least 10 years prior),  but rather should it have been replaced? Maybe not the full capacity?
RTT_Rules
Engie (then International Power) had a plan at one stage. First part was 'Hazelwood 2030': retrofit Unit 1 with new 3-stage turbines incorporating steam reheating and a pre-combustion coal drying plant (using the German WTA process). The idea was to burn less coal (by drying it first) and generate more power from the same boiler heat input by increasing the turbine/boiler steam cycle efficiency. There was also a Carbon Capture & Storage (CCS) pilot plant in there too. If that all worked then they'd do the same retrofit on half the plant (Units 2-4).

The follow-on from 'Hazelwood 2030' was to build Hazelwood 'Unit 9' on top of Units 7 & 8, which would've been an 800MWe unit with an ultra-supercritical boiler and pre-combustion coal drying. Oh, and CCS if they got some more government handouts. Over time the idea of retrofitting existing Hazelwood units became less and less appealing (if you've ever had a look inside Hazelwood or had a chat to people who worked there, you'd know why). The 'Unit 9' plan stuck around a bit longer, but the financials got worse over time and finally Engie declared that it was getting out of coal globally. No-one was going to buy Hazelwood in its condition and the replacement plans were worthless to buyers.

Other power station owners in the Latrobe Valley have had different plans. EnergyAustralia (aka China Light & Power) was looking at building a 1000 MWe Combined Cycle Gas Turbine (CCGT) plant next door to Yallourn W. That plan is on hold despite the closure of Hazelwood - long-term gas supply contracts are getting more expensive and power prices aren't high enough to offset them.

HRL Limited (formerly the SECV Herman Research Laboratories), which owned the Morwell Briquette Factory (aka Energy Brix) had a plan to build Driffield Power Station on that site. Would've been a 600 MWe CCGT plant fuelled by syngas made with brown coal from the Hazelwood Open Cut by using Integrated Drying & Gasification (IDG) technology. It also could run on natural gas should there be an issue with the IDG plant. It also had the option of retrofitting Carbon Capture & Storage technology after the plant was built.
This plan was scuppered by activists. HRL Limited couldn't get financing in Australia thanks to their lobbying and they weren't big enough to get financing abroad.

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
DD707, you left out waste paper and old car tyres. :)Weed - a bit costly !! Smile
Just don't expect the boiler to make steam on most of this stuff or think that you could carry enough of it to move anywhere let alone some of the emissions.

SmileSmile
Yes, well, I was aware of alternatives such as these, however I meant viable alternatives! Smile
Short of throwing a piece of nuclear waste from Fukushima in the boiler, probably nothing apart from scrap wood which seems to be the common alt to coal by the HR operators.
So, in the absence of a clean, green, renewable fuel for steam locos, they will all be scrapped... Twisted Evil
Graham4405
Most already have been scrapped.

But no,  run on dried timber. If you want to close the loop of the CO2, go to a timber platation that is thinning or removing crowns from timber tree's or for timber taken from native forest, the smaller unwanted trees and crowns from harvested trees.

CO2 loop closed, trains continue to operate.
  allan Chief Commissioner

But no,  run on dried timber. If you want to close the loop of the CO2, go to a timber platation that is thinning or removing crowns from timber tree's or for timber taken from native forest, the smaller unwanted trees and crowns from harvested trees.

CO2 loop closed, trains continue to operate.
RTT_Rules
That's a remarkably unconventional interpretation of the carbon cycle...
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
But no,  run on dried timber. If you want to close the loop of the CO2, go to a timber platation that is thinning or removing crowns from timber tree's or for timber taken from native forest, the smaller unwanted trees and crowns from harvested trees.

CO2 loop closed, trains continue to operate.
That's a remarkably unconventional interpretation of the carbon cycle...
allan
Chop it
Burn it
Plant a new one

Doesn't get any simpler.

Crown's and timber trees not suitable for timber, especially young are normally chipped on site, some times land filled (usually in gully's but no considered bad practice) and/or often burned. Either way its back to CO2 for them, burning in a steam engine just converts some of the heat energy into mechanical energy and alot of smiles.

Ok plant 2 tree's to make up for ones chopped in past
  allan Chief Commissioner

But no,  run on dried timber. If you want to close the loop of the CO2, go to a timber platation that is thinning or removing crowns from timber tree's or for timber taken from native forest, the smaller unwanted trees and crowns from harvested trees.

CO2 loop closed, trains continue to operate.
That's a remarkably unconventional interpretation of the carbon cycle...
Chop it
Burn it
Plant a new one

Doesn't get any simpler.

Crown's and timber trees not suitable for timber, especially young are normally chipped on site, some times land filled (usually in gully's but no considered bad practice) and/or often burned. Either way its back to CO2 for them, burning in a steam engine just converts some of the heat energy into mechanical energy and alot of smiles.

Ok plant 2 tree's to make up for ones chopped in past
RTT_Rules
And the leftover carbon sits in the atmosphere for a couple of centuries waiting for the trees to need it, presuming that they live long enough to need it. There's already an excess of carbon in the atmosphere - that's the problem, and your solution adds to the problem.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
But no,  run on dried timber. If you want to close the loop of the CO2, go to a timber platation that is thinning or removing crowns from timber tree's or for timber taken from native forest, the smaller unwanted trees and crowns from harvested trees.

CO2 loop closed, trains continue to operate.
That's a remarkably unconventional interpretation of the carbon cycle...
Chop it
Burn it
Plant a new one

Doesn't get any simpler.

Crown's and timber trees not suitable for timber, especially young are normally chipped on site, some times land filled (usually in gully's but no considered bad practice) and/or often burned. Either way its back to CO2 for them, burning in a steam engine just converts some of the heat energy into mechanical energy and alot of smiles.

Ok plant 2 tree's to make up for ones chopped in past
And the leftover carbon sits in the atmosphere for a couple of centuries waiting for the trees to need it, presuming that they live long enough to need it. There's already an excess of carbon in the atmosphere - that's the problem, and your solution adds to the problem.
allan
Not really

You burn it during harvesting or let it rot (same outcome), or burn it in a train. Either way its going up to the sky before being reused by the trees (today) whether you run a train or not, currently most is burnt. The wood you are going to burn in a steam engine is not the prime timber, rather its the waste. commercial Timber is too expensive to burn in a steam engine.

The excess of CO2 in the atmosphere is driven by conversion of mostly fossil fuel to CO2. Deforestation is a minor component as they are smaller carbon banks. No amount of reforestation will return the CO2 to previous levels as it only recovers the CO2 lost from the previous forest that was cut, burned and rotted.
  allan Chief Commissioner

Deforestation is a minor, but not insignificant source of atmospheric carbon, but the greater cost of old growth forestry is to biodiversity.

As for regarding burning as equal to composting (letting it rot), you are clearly not an enlightened gardener! A shovel full of ash is no substitute for a shovel full of compost.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Don't disagree.

Burning releases organics and lite material as gas or fly ash to atmosphere.

But we are talking CO2 cycle not gardening.
  allan Chief Commissioner

I thought that we were talking about the impact of forestry (gardening) on the carbon cycle - the two are intimately related.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Watching the AEMO wholesale electricity price in Vic was entertaining viewing this evening. It nearly hit $13000/MWh ($13/KWh!!!) with Gas and Hydro filling the gap as the sun got low, wind dropped, and everyone was home with the AC on full bore...
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
If this is about carbon, then the compost argument doesn’t exist.

Plants don’t take carbon from the soil (or via roots), they get (near) all their carbon from atmospheric CO2
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Incidentally the big spike in electricity price in Vic and SA was due to Loy Yang B tripping this afternoon...
  allan Chief Commissioner

But plants don't grow on carbon, alone, nor is carbon the only constituent in compost. The carbon component of compost feeds a lot of other biota, eg fungi and animals, releasing minerals and other nutrients, and increases the moisture-holding capacity of the soil, enabling plants to grow more readily, thus (dare I say it) sequestering carbon. This applies in the back yard, as it does in forest.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Incidentally the big spike in electricity price in Vic and SA was due to Loy Yang B tripping this afternoon...
Carnot
Unit 2. Looks like there was a bit of an upset prior to it tripping. It's interesting to note that during that outage, which lasted a couple of hours, Victoria was still exporting to S.A. throughout. Gas fired generation filled the void. Between those two states there was still approximately 1.5GW of gas generation spare during the outage. Also, Victoria didn't have to significantly rape NSW or Tasmania further.

With so much spare capacity still in the system, the size of the price spike is astonishing.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Legalised corporate theft
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Legalised corporate theft
wobert
What you'd expect from a system run by economists and not engineers.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Grab some popcorn:
https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard

This afternoon is forecast to go through the roof, so expect more price gouging by the generators.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

South Australia has now fired up its Diesel generators and they're producing 157 MW atm.

Cashing in on spiking wholesale power prices...
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Emergency Diesel generators in SA have kicked in and are currently producing 157 MW.

Not surprised.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The SA Treasurer disagreed with your assertion earlier today - on the ABC website (sorry - can't link it right now):

SA Treasurer Tom Koutsantonis said while the state's temporary generators were ready, they were unlikely to be used this afternoon.

"In terms of supply we should be okay," he said.

"Victoria I understand is about to load shed industry. So they're not coping with the power supply.

"They are a coal-dependent state and they are having to take industry offline to support their households. In South Australia we're not having to do that today."

Tom, that's because there's NO INDUSTRY LEFT to shut down... !
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Here you go Don, get in quick, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-04/how-tesla-sa-labor-free-battery-scheme-would-work/9394728

if you cant beat em, join em.Laughing
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Here you go Don, get in quick, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-04/how-tesla-sa-labor-free-battery-scheme-would-work/9394728

if you cant beat em, join em.Laughing
"wobert"

What, so it can burn my house down when it overloads? No thanks.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Mornin Don
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
South Australia’s current production? 1654MW of which solar is 430MW and wind is 60MW, 1MW exiting our ‘big battery’, the rest is gas.

South Australia’s current demand? 2320MW.

Those ‘renewables’ are doing well today. It’s not overtly hot, it’s not overcast, the battery is charged, but if we didn’t import electrons we’d be blacking our 1/3 of the state.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

South Australia’s current production? 1654MW of which solar is 430MW and wind is 60MW, 1MW exiting our ‘big battery’, the rest is gas.

South Australia’s current demand? 2320MW.

Those ‘renewables’ are doing well today. It’s not overtly hot, it’s not overcast, the battery is charged, but if we didn’t import electrons we’d be blacking our 1/3 of the state.
Aaron
Tasmanian hydro and Qld Black coal is doing much of the heavy lifting to make up the shortfall atm.

Batteries have their place, but without something to generate the power to charge them, then what?  At least solar-cells are heaps cheaper than they used to be....

Natural gas ain't exactly going to get cheaper:
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/gas-giant-bills-threat-price-hikes-of-up-to-430-predicted-20180203-p4yzd9.html

Thats right, we're flogging it off overseas at bargain basement prices....

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