Steamrail To Cancel Hitachi Preservation

 
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
That's going to hurt if it's true. Rail preservation in Melbourne is officially a joke, and not because of these Hitachi trains. Just because 187M is stuffed and mounted in a museum doesn't mean that it is preserved, and one carriage is not a train anyway. The museum itself is the size of a suburban backyard and not a single carriage can be ridden in since they don't actually move. What the ARHS has at 26 Champion Rd is nothing but taxidermy, when a family wants to see a proper rail museum they visit Puffing Billy or wait for the next Steamrail special as everything else in Victoria (including preserved trams) is in the bush away from decent public transport, and requires several hours to get there and back.
Heihachi_73
With preservationists like you, who needs enemies?

And for the record, the Melbourne Tram Museum in Hawthorn isn't in the bush, has a tram stop practically on its doorstep and has a well-curated collection. I encourage you to visit some time, seeing as you appear to be unaware of its existence.

Sponsored advertisement

  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Heihachi_73 seems to be completely confused by the difference between a museum and an operating railway.

Go the the Melbourne Museum - what do you see? Stuffed exhibits, immobile displays, historical artefacts et al.  Go to the PBR Museum at Menzies Creek - immobile exhibits. Same at ARHS Champion Road where volunteers are labouring under immense difficulties.

The comment that "rail preservation in Melbourne is officially a joke" would, in a less civilized environment, earn Heihachi a well-deserved smack in the mouth from Steamrail, 707 Operations, DERMPAV et al; all in Melbourne.  If he takes his blinkers off and goes outside Melbourne there are operating preserved rail vehicles by the dray load.

Unfortunately, those of us who actually got our hands and overalls dirty over the years keeping historic rail working have to put up with uninformed comments, and we learned to live with them. It's a pity, but there will always be those who complain and take no notice of what excellent results in preservation are being achieved.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

they are not worth preserving they are lemons.
  501M Train Controller

Location: The Borough
We're talking preservation of electric suburban carriages, and whether Steamrail will do this with the Hitachi stock.

The Elecrail division of Steamrail did a fantastic job on the Tait and dog box cars. We know what happened to the dog boxes, and the Tait set hasn't turned a wheel under its own power since cocky was an egg.

Steamrail's raison d'etre is to restore and operate historic trains, and its record in doing this, since the original days of the Steam Preservation Coordinating Committee, is absolutely magnificent. The operating fleet is nothing short of superb.

I cannot see any reason for Steamrail to preserve Hitachi carriages, given the fact that it is easier to run the preserved electric stock from Cairns to Singapore than it is to run it on any Victorian (Metro) lines. In other words, the Hitachi stock is destined to become stationary exhibits, more suited to a museum. Preservation costs money, and I suggest Steamrail has plenty of priorities ahead of any more electrics.
Valvegear
So if electric stock is so unworthy of preservation then why has Steamrail acquired another Dogbox motor to restore?  Better send the Ls and Es to Sims Metal as well.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
So if electric stock is so unworthy of preservation then why has Steamrail acquired another Dogbox motor to restore?  Better send the Ls and Es to Sims Metal as well.
501M
Because unlike the Hitachis:
  • There are very few remaining Doggies in existence (courtesy of a fellow now domiciled At Her Majesty's Pleasure)
  • They are of great heritage significance as they are artifacts of the first railway electrification scheme in Australia
  • They will significantly deteriorate without restoration due to their wooden construction
  • They can be run on suburban steam excursions without making a laughing-stock of Steamrail, so they can earn their keep.

As for the Ls and Es? At least they take up less space than 6 Hitachi cars. That'll buy them some time. A Great Rationalisation is a-coming.
  silvertrain80 Junior Train Controller

Location: stabled at newport
Is the set elecrail supposed to keep still sitting at the garden platform?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Is the set elecrail supposed to keep still sitting at the garden platform?
silvertrain80
There was still a set in the Garden Platform when I was at Newport in December, sporting some pretty heavy graffiti, but I was told it was going to be moved fairly soon thereafter

Not sure if that has happened since.

BG
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Is the set elecrail supposed to keep still sitting at the garden platform?
There was still a set in the Garden Platform when I was at Newport in December, sporting some pretty heavy graffiti, but I was told it was going to be moved fairly soon thereafter

Not sure if that has happened since.

BG
BrentonGolding
going to the blowtorch at North Geelong
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
what is happening?, ya know what ill go to the open day and ask the guys at elecrail about the hitachis
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
It seems to me that anything after the 1950s is just too modern for their tastes, just like the certain two 'pagers on here who desperately tried to derail this thread in case someone did set up a find for preservation of more modern rolling stock than an S car of 1940s vintage, or the K cars which are of South Australian origins. Can't they see the seventy year gap in rolling stock or something? Victoria scraps rolling stock when it reaches 30 or 40 years old, but we only preserve the existing rolling stock without any thoughts of future generations who will wonder what the hell a Hitachi or Comeng train was, or even how to pronounce "com-enj" for that matter. The only exception to the rule is diesel locomotives, which still prove themselves quite useful, or I would guarantee there would be no 567- or 645-powered Victorian locos still going around doing hard work.

It reminds me of the trams, no-one wants a Z1 because it isn't a W, and now that a highly modified Z1 81 has been shoehorned into Hawthorn Depot and number 1 burnt to a crisp it is even less likely that one will be running on tours around Melbourne (in case you're wondering LancedDendrite, yes, I have heard of that place, I was there when 81 was transferred to Hawthorn in the early hours of the morning on 19/6/2015, the YouTube video of A class 278 towing 81 near Richmond is mine but I could not be stuffed setting up a Google account just for one video - I still have everything on the SD card including the R10 trucks getting ready to move 81 into the depot). But yeah, it still falls under the "they don't run tram tours across Melbourne" thing - that would require a pantograph on every operational tram (e.g. practically everything except 1041 and the cable cars) as well as a bunch of tram drivers so it's in the too hard basket. Z1 1, A1 231 and B1s 2001 and 2002, all down the drain. I don't have much hope for Z3s or B2s either let alone any of the early low floor trams in twenty years time (just look at the Variotram thread, where they were so fast at scrapping them that the preservation group had to go to the scrapyard just to get one and some parts to keep it running, otherwise they would have gone the same way as our four S class steamers, being reduced to nothing but text and photos).

With the likes of some people on Railpage, who needs enemies? In a less-civilised world such as Australia in the 1950s, yes, one would get thumped for daring to speak if someone else disagreed with something. Fortunately we are not in the 1950s any more so it is high time that we moved on and keep history flowing. A Holden club does not exclude people who drive up in a mint condition three-on-the-tree HQ Belmont or a VN Group A or the very last operational JB Camira on the grounds that they don't have a grey motor and drum brakes at the front and that similar examples are already preserved on static display in the Holden museum. By the sounds of it, another preservation group is needed in Melbourne to focus on the modern VR rolling stock (1950s through early 1980s) so that Steamrail and the others can keep their traditional rolling stock running without having to worry about funds being wasted on preserving graffiti magnets (and people said stainless steel wasn't magnetic).
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
Im sorry but I think Heihachi makes some good points. Yes there are some great volunteer/tourist railway groups around, but when it comes to preserving electric trains, Melbourne honestly is a joke.

Whilst many seem to regard the sparks as being disposable I think they're a very important part of history that needs to be preserved.

It would be great to have these trains running again, maybe a future museum could have a short section of track where people could see what it was like to ride on a Red Rattler or a Harris (or even a Hitachi for the younger members here).
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
It seems to me that anything after the 1950s is just too modern for their tastes
Heihachi_73
Preservation groups are run and staffed mainly by volunteers. Volunteers by their very nature gravitate towards projects that they are interested in.

In my case I am a volunteer with a heritage group, I am interested in Steam locomotives first and foremost. Then the carriages and wagons that we use steam to haul (and even then I am compromised as management choose to run cars for commercial purposes that do not suit the line IMO), then heritage diesels, then DERMs etc etc.

So I do most of my work when I can on Steam.

As I understand Elecrail isn't exactly brimming with active volunteers. So if you and others are so enthusiastic about electric trains get a group of like minded souls together, join Steamrail (if you are not already a member), head down to Newport and see what can be done.

They could sure use the help. As could pretty much all of the heritage groups. If you could see the emails that invade my inbox on a weekly basis begging for volunteers to ensure that a service can actually run you would see the problem writ large.

BG
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Suggestion for Heihachi_73 - instead of "they" . . . "they" . . . "they", get off your clacker and start trying to do something yourself, exactly as BG has suggested.

I was secretary of one preservation group for some years, and my phone used to ring hot with "Why don't you. . . ?" and "What about doing . . .?" and "Why isn't . . .?" ,all from people who never got down and dirty, until I was fed to the back teeth with it.

I am, or was, in the same boat as BG; -  steam is my first love, and I'm not interested in working on the preservation of electrics. Fortunately, others are. Go join 'em!
  silvertrain80 Junior Train Controller

Location: stabled at newport
Lets not argue like this, We are not setting a good example for Railpage.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Lets not argue like this, We are not setting a good example for Railpage.
"silvertrain80"
We are not arguing; we are discussing. If you can't handle robust discussion, that's your concern. I rather like it.
  ivahri Train Controller

Suggestion for Heihachi_73 - instead of "they" . . . "they" . . . "they", get off your clacker and start trying to do something yourself, exactly as BG has suggested.

I was secretary of one preservation group for some years, and my phone used to ring hot with "Why don't you. . . ?" and "What about doing . . .?" and "Why isn't . . .?" ,all from people who never got down and dirty, until I was fed to the back teeth with it.

I am, or was, in the same boat as BG; -  steam is my first love, and I'm not interested in working on the preservation of electrics. Fortunately, others are. Go join 'em!
Valvegear
Thank you! Finally someone who is honest about the issue!

Rail preservation groups are caught between a rock and a hard place.

They do depend on volunteers and most of the volunteers are seemingly from the retired railwaymen's ranks & are driven by an interest in steam. The hobby would be stuffed without them.

BUT...

The larger rail heritage groups are recipients of mucho public money. That public money "should" be focused on the preservation of rail history- not just the part of rail history that interests the volunteers. The community, whether you want to admit it or not, are major share holders in most rail heritage groups.

We are losing historical items because of personal bias among volunteers. Those volunteers may be our heroes, but they can also be the villains.

For example... the Silver City Comet... one of the greatest technological innovations in rail in Australia. THNSW don't spend a cent on it... not a penny... one carriage has already become not much better than kindling. There is NOTHING like it in terms of age... but there is no interest... it isn't steam or first gen diesel...  Volunteers need to be guided... they should not be able to decide/influence to just ignore the history they are entrusted with. Our rail history needs to be assessed and valued in a balanced way, not just what brings back old railwaymen's memories...

So yes, the vintage electrics in both Sydney & Melbourne deserve to be given a greater share of the pie.



Richard
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
Lets not argue like this, We are not setting a good example for Railpage.
silvertrain80
Au contraire, this is exactly what Railpage needs - and deserves!

Volunteers need to be guided... they should not be able to decide/influence to just ignore the history they are entrusted with. Our rail history needs to be assessed and valued in a balanced way, not just what brings back old railwaymen's memories...
ivahri
So volunteers should be 'guided' to conserve items that they don't care about? That sounds like a winning idea!
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The larger rail heritage groups are recipients of mucho public money. That public money "should" be focused on the preservation of rail history- not just the part of rail history that interests the volunteers. The community, whether you want to admit it or not, are major share holders in most rail heritage groups.
ivahri
Mucho public money??? In your dreams down in Victoria, mate (with the exception of PBR).
Volunteers need to be guided... they should not be able to decide/influence to just ignore the history they are entrusted with. Our rail history needs to be assessed and valued in a balanced way, not just what brings back old railwaymen's memories...
ivahri
Sorry, but while we, the volunteers, sweat our guts out and raise all the money to restore and maintain these historic items, we'll do the ones we like. We pay; we choose.
I'm not sure where you gain the idea that we're entrusted with a large variety, and some bureaucrat will then tell us what we're going to restore, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that said bureaucrat would be invited to go to a certain place and experience something personal and horrid.
So yes, the vintage electrics in both Sydney & Melbourne deserve to be given a greater share of the pie.
ivahri
OK; you find the Victorian pie, and organise the staff, and the best of British luck to you. We do this stuff as a hobby. Without us there'd be nothing saved. The only oversight we need is obedience to railway safe working and OH&S. Leave the rest to us.
  ivahri Train Controller

The larger rail heritage groups are recipients of mucho public money. That public money "should" be focused on the preservation of rail history- not just the part of rail history that interests the volunteers. The community, whether you want to admit it or not, are major share holders in most rail heritage groups.
Mucho public money??? In your dreams down in Victoria, mate (with the exception of PBR).
Volunteers need to be guided... they should not be able to decide/influence to just ignore the history they are entrusted with. Our rail history needs to be assessed and valued in a balanced way, not just what brings back old railwaymen's memories...
Sorry, but while we, the volunteers, sweat our guts out and raise all the money to restore and maintain these historic items, we'll do the ones we like. We pay; we choose.
I'm not sure where you gain the idea that we're entrusted with a large variety, and some bureaucrat will then tell us what we're going to restore, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that said bureaucrat would be invited to go to a certain place and experience something personal and horrid.
So yes, the vintage electrics in both Sydney & Melbourne deserve to be given a greater share of the pie.
OK; you find the Victorian pie, and organise the staff, and the best of British luck to you. We do this stuff as a hobby. Without us there'd be nothing saved. The only oversight we need is obedience to railway safe working and OH&S. Leave the rest to us.
Valvegear
Valvegear if the museum is privately funded I totally agree with you... but in NSW there is a heap of public money put into rail preservation. My comments relate to that situation (which is what I wrote in my previous reply). How much has been spent on 3801 so far? 7 figures... all public money... Running costs at Thirlmere... not cheap bickies either...




Richard
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Ivahri, we don't have "a museum" as you do at Thirlmere. Our preservation groups all run trains with the exception of the static display at the ARHS Museum at North Williamstown.
They have to be self sustaining because successive governments in living memory have not given two hoots about rail preservation, let alone paid for anything of note. For years, I have been green with envy at the support rail preservation gets from the NSW government. Anything we achieve is in spite of the government, not because of it.
The only exception is Puffing Billy which gets squillions - the latest lot for a "Visitors Centre." I'm told they've just converted loco 14A to oil firing - they can afford to muck around; the rest of us can't.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Just out of interest, and for those who can remember events of about 40 years back, how much of a stir was created when the withdrawn Tait's were burned out near Kingston?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Valvegear if the museum is privately funded I totally agree with you... but in NSW there is a heap of public money put into rail preservation. My comments relate to that situation (which is what I wrote in my previous reply). How much has been spent on 3801 so far? 7 figures... all public money... Running costs at Thirlmere... not cheap bickies either...

Richard
ivahri
This discussion AFAIK is about the Hitachi sets in Victoria,

Heritage groups in Vic do get some public money but not much.

Certainly not enough to tell us what to work on and what not to.

And our passengers like steam possibly more than we do.

Substitute a Hitachi Set for a J class and a consist of wooden bodies cars and watch Joe Public walk away.

BG
  ivahri Train Controller

Ivahri, we don't have "a museum" as you do at Thirlmere. Our preservation groups all run trains with the exception of the static display at the ARHS Museum at North Williamstown.
They have to be self sustaining because successive governments in living memory have not given two hoots about rail preservation, let alone paid for anything of note. For years, I have been green with envy at the support rail preservation gets from the NSW government. Anything we achieve is in spite of the government, not because of it.
The only exception is Puffing Billy which gets squillions - the latest lot for a "Visitors Centre." I'm told they've just converted loco 14A to oil firing - they can afford to muck around; the rest of us can't.
Valvegear
Valvegear,

Understood... and respected.


Richard
  501M Train Controller

Location: The Borough
Suggestion for Heihachi_73 - instead of "they" . . . "they" . . . "they", get off your clacker and start trying to do something yourself, exactly as BG has suggested.

I was secretary of one preservation group for some years, and my phone used to ring hot with "Why don't you. . . ?" and "What about doing . . .?" and "Why isn't . . .?" ,all from people who never got down and dirty, until I was fed to the back teeth with it.

I am, or was, in the same boat as BG; -  steam is my first love, and I'm not interested in working on the preservation of electrics. Fortunately, others are. Go join 'em!
Valvegear

I tried to get involved with Elecrail, however I was never made feel welcome so I gave up.  Now between a young family, work and model trains I don't have the time.
  silvertrain80 Junior Train Controller

Location: stabled at newport
Lets not argue like this, We are not setting a good example for Railpage.
We are not arguing; we are discussing. If you can't handle robust discussion, that's your concern. I rather like it.
Valvegear
suit yourself.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: croxton, davesvline, jakar, ogigacz

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.